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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/27/2009 9:49:35 AM   
pdv99


Posts: 140
Joined: 3/13/2007
From: UK
Status: offline 		Let's not forget, "Brutus was an honourable man"
Yeah, it definitely means different things to different people.
I don't usually think of it as a distinct characteristic, for me it's an amalgam of honest and self-respect. I care much less what other people think of "My honor". In fact I can think of a couple of occasions when I've done something that maybe left me looking bad, because I did something to protect someone else, without explaining to the world. Where's my honour in that - I put someone else's feelings ahead of my public reputation. I seemed like a low life, but I had my self respect because I knew the reasons.

(in reply to olena)
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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/27/2009 12:35:35 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

On a list of important characteristics of a person, where does that person's sense of honor sit?
****Waaaaaaaaay up there on the list: extremely high. 

If having a high personal sense of honor and integrity, how far are you willing to defend that?
****I don't know that I'd go so far as to die for it but I certianly would take on great risk for it.  It is one of my core values. 

We all are guided by own own sense of personal ethics, how much of your own self respect and the respect earned from your peers are you willing to risk for the sake of defending your own sense of honor, even if that sense of honor is over inflated?
****Actually, people who most resepect and understand me tend to hold those things about me in high regard, thus they wouldn't look on them as negatives.  More to this point, would be the rare instances in which I have sacrificed my honor (Only one true time and I will always carry that with me) and what that does to my self-perception and how others see me: and, from what I've gleaned, it makes me less potentially sanctimonious (Because I won't be a hypocrite) and I think others see it as humanizing. 
Davan



Shakes his head and laughs.



I hope my perception of what you're upto is in error, Michael, but based on your recent behavior elsewhere I fear I am correct.  Elucidate rather than simply sniping. 
To remain within the context of the thread: I believe that running around challenging people in a back-handed fashion is an excellent example of dishonorable behavior. 
  Davan
(Smiling at Michal, hands at about waist level, making a 'bring it on' gesture)

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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/27/2009 2:32:33 PM   
MidMichCowboy


Posts: 665
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		Honor: honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions

Honor is a standard I have to hold myself to, not something society or some group bestows upon me. No one has to defend it, nor do I.

I just have to live it.

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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/27/2009 2:47:02 PM   
tammystarm


Posts: 3045
Joined: 7/26/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

Got to thinking lately in regards to how we kinksters are adamant about being in a relationship, whether it's with a dominant, submissive or a switch and we place a high priority on that person's character. What strikes me as strange is I've rarely read anyone place any emphasis on the other person's honor.

Going by the dictionary definition of honor which is: honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions. It seems to me that a person would want to examine the honor of a potential partner or in a partner if that person is in a relationship. What I'd like to ask is:
On a list of important characteristics of a person, where does that person's sense of honor sit?  If having a high personal sense of honor and integrity, how far are you willing to defend that?
We all are guided by own own sense of personal ethics, how much of your own self respect and the respect earned from your peers are you willing to risk for the sake of defending your own sense of honor, even if that sense of honor is over inflated?




Sorry fuzzywuzzy, im afraid i only have one moral, thou shall not covet the neighbors wife.....something like that.
Hideous sense of humor aside, Your right both partner's characters, morals and beliefs must match and i wouldnt have a Dom in my life that didnt respect mine. Although Master Art is pushing it with this whole "republican" thingie"  


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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/27/2009 3:50:09 PM   
DemonKia


Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline 		FR, after read thru

Huh. I don't generally think about 'honor', in large part because that particular word has a lot of baggage attached to it. 'Honor duels', for instance, have kinda degraded it, for me (& long before the current silliness here on CM) . . . . . . I tend to think of it's component parts far more than this more, to me, abstract notion of honor. I went & looked it up, tho', just to be a little more sure about my thinking in this:

honor, noun: 1 high respect; esteem -- a person or thing that brings credit -- adherence to what is right or to a conventional standard of conduct. & 2 a privilege -- an exalted position -- a thing conferred as a distinction, esp. an official award for bravery or achievement & 3 [dated] a woman's chastity or her reputation for this . . . .

Yeah, that last is one of the significant reasons I'm not terribly impressed with the word 'honor' as a specifier of something, cuz it's got this gender asymmetrical baggage attached that takes on a new flavor of weirdness, for me, in this forum.

Now, as for 'respect', that's a term I can wrap my head around:

respect, noun: 1 a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements -- due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of . . . .

I like to be respected, especially with regard to that last definition of respect, & I cannot stay in intimate relationship with people I don't have quite a bit of respect for, from experience . . . . . . But it's an ongoing process, rather than some goal-state one attains & can then rest on one's laurels over ... . . .

& a significant chunk of what I respect, outside of that 'due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of' part, is a rather wholistic & enormous honesty . . . . . & fairness, however ambiguous & difficult that might be to ascertain for an individual or a social group, is an ideal I find very important . . . . . & education, formal or self-taught, is also a significant concern for me, one that touches strongly on all the rest. It's tough to respect ignorance, & insult is pretty regularly given out of thoughtless ignorance . ... . . & frankly, compassion & empathy probably rank up way higher on my meter than a lot of 'tougher' standards . . . . . ..

As for the 'standing up for one's honor' part, well, I have this thing about effectiveness, especially with regards to communication. If I think people are talking shite & that my stating non-shite might effectively be understood & received, I'll probably speak up. Otherwise, I'll probably just remove myself from the situation . . .. .

If the totalitarians with guns, of whatever stripe, show up at my door, I'll turn my competence to neither cooperating with them nor allowing them to kill me, to whatever degree that's possible. & I've always quite liked Heinlein's notion that the truly free cannot be enslaved, they can merely be killed. That, & Obi-Wan Kanobi's idea that in death, there is more, & if I am struck down it may only make me more rather than less, but that's a serious digression there . .. . . . Suffice to say that death is neither something I particularly fear, nor something I work at seeking out . . ... But then, I'm not really thinking that totalitarians with guns showing up at doors en masse is a terribly likely proposition, despite the dire prophecies of all kinds of people all of my adult life; I used to be way more into survivalist kinds of thinking in my dissolute youth, but I finally gave it up for the betterment of my mental health, it was a very anxious & depressing mind-space for me to be in . . . . . .

& contrarily, I value 'sense of humor' up there with 'respect', while noting that they can be oppositional entities. Humor is frequently disrespectful, & I appreciate those who can laugh at themselves, which carries with it a certain eau d'disrespect for self . ... . . (I'd hazard to say that that intrinsic dilemma of self-deprecating humor is part of why some excessively serious & self-respecting persons cannot seem to laugh at themselves . . . . . )

Part of what sets my teeth on edge with the concept of honor is that it implies, to me, a kind of hard-edged rigidity, an either-or, get in this box or that one flavor to it that I have a hard time with. I'm way too middle-of-the-mess, grey-amorpous-ambivalent about so many things that I can't relate to that more hard-core perspective that seems packed into the idea of 'fighting for the honor of _________' . . . . .

< Message edited by DemonKia -- 7/27/2009 3:52:24 PM >

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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/27/2009 4:25:11 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

I hope my perception of what you're up to is in error, Michael, but based on your recent behavior elsewhere I fear I am correct.  Elucidate rather than simply sniping. 

Give him time, Davan.

He's currently thumbing through "Chicken Soup For The Soul, Volume #39" to find the morsel of brilliance he'll use to adequately address the OP.


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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/27/2009 4:31:19 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

Got to thinking lately in regards to how we kinksters are adamant about being in a relationship, whether it's with a dominant, submissive or a switch and we place a high priority on that person's character. What strikes me as strange is I've rarely read anyone place any emphasis on the other person's honor.

Going by the dictionary definition of honor which is: honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions. It seems to me that a person would want to examine the honor of a potential partner or in a partner if that person is in a relationship. What I'd like to ask is:
On a list of important characteristics of a person, where does that person's sense of honor sit?  If having a high personal sense of honor and integrity, how far are you willing to defend that?
We all are guided by own own sense of personal ethics, how much of your own self respect and the respect earned from your peers are you willing to risk for the sake of defending your own sense of honor, even if that sense of honor is over inflated?


Jeez...I can't remember the thread name, but a number of weeks back a topic somewhat related to this came up and a lot of issues surrounding the concept of honor and the sensibility behind holding people to it came up. I was actually surprised to find many people have a very laissez-faire attitude when it comes to the expectations of honor compared to what I would have guessed; meaning, the act of expecting someone to act honorably (at least in the sense of making any resolute promises) can be inherently negative or disproportionate to the likelihood of having it satisfied.

The natural human emotional progression is to become jaded the more not-happy-ending relationships we have, thereby making us perhaps more inherently distrustful (at least in an indirect sense) of the honor we can expect from someone else.

But, based on the definition you provided, I (for better or worse) consider honor a tantamount trait that I expect of myself and those I would be intimate with.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/27/2009 5:15:50 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

Got to thinking lately in regards to how we kinksters are adamant about being in a relationship, whether it's with a dominant, submissive or a switch and we place a high priority on that person's character. What strikes me as strange is I've rarely read anyone place any emphasis on the other person's honor.

Going by the dictionary definition of honor which is: honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions. It seems to me that a person would want to examine the honor of a potential partner or in a partner if that person is in a relationship. What I'd like to ask is:
On a list of important characteristics of a person, where does that person's sense of honor sit?  If having a high personal sense of honor and integrity, how far are you willing to defend that?
We all are guided by own own sense of personal ethics, how much of your own self respect and the respect earned from your peers are you willing to risk for the sake of defending your own sense of honor, even if that sense of honor is over inflated?


I'm sorry I really don't understand the question(s).


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Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/27/2009 8:29:22 PM   
poeticfreak


Posts: 80
Joined: 6/1/2008
Status: offline 		Honor is rather intrinsic in ones character so doesn't necessarily need to be listed separately.   As for how far I would go to defend my honor, not very far at all, in fact most of the time I probably wouldn't even bother.  My honor is my own and so long as I can live with myself then the opinions of others don't really matter, except for a select few

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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/27/2009 8:41:21 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		(half jokingly)

In any community, the more discussion this is about things like "honor", the less honor there's likely to be.

_____________________________

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/28/2009 12:53:53 AM   
vasha


Posts: 99
Joined: 2/20/2009
Status: offline 		death before dishonor!
no im not kidding.

~vasha

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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/28/2009 4:09:23 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Greetings bear....

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

Got to thinking lately in regards to how we kinksters are adamant about being in a relationship, whether it's with a dominant, submissive or a switch and we place a high priority on that person's character. What strikes me as strange is I've rarely read anyone place any emphasis on the other person's honor.

Going by the dictionary definition of honor which is: honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions. It seems to me that a person would want to examine the honor of a potential partner or in a partner if that person is in a relationship. What I'd like to ask is:
On a list of important characteristics of a person, where does that person's sense of honor sit?  If having a high personal sense of honor and integrity, how far are you willing to defend that?
We all are guided by own own sense of personal ethics, how much of your own self respect and the respect earned from your peers are you willing to risk for the sake of defending your own sense of honor, even if that sense of honor is over inflated?



This is an interesting question to put in this forum. The subject is a common one in another forum here in CM.

The simple answer to your question is that there is about as much honor in BDSM as in the rest of society and by my observations...a bit less. To make a more concrete answer, little to none. This is why the few who do recognize it and the fewer still who exhibit it stand out among others.

Be well....

Malkinius


I've come back to this thread because I really didn't understand the question(s) at first.
There seems to be a trend in the General Discussions Forum here to equate bdsm (its all and everything) to 'just human nature'  or the 'rest of society at large.' I suppose in part that is true but heck don't we run the risk of having EVERY thread put into OFF TOPIC? We may as well forget about having a bdsm general discussion. Heck we may as well forget about having Collarme.
In my experience (for what that's worth) there is a difference between the non-bdsm and bdsm....more than it being just an acronym.
There is a difference between bdsm and 'off topics'.
And as a corollary of this there is a difference between honour in the everyday world and honour in my bdsm relationships.
The difference? Not just one. Man. And subtle at that.
There are very many checks and balances in my everyday world to ensure that I and others keeps there word and abide my appropriate conditions of service. These checks and balances take many forms, for example contracts, conditions/terms of service, trade association agreements, code of ethics, codes of conduct. On the whole these are all negotiated and agreed by a CONSENSUS and a consensus taken on a democraticprinciple and that means a democracy of more than ONE or more than TWO.
In my relationships this is not so. I have had a contract. It was signed in blood. I have worn a collar. I have agreed to limits. I have agreed to no limits. But these were agreements based upon my word and that bond being made between myself and a Master alone. Intense often. Personal in the etreme. Relying upon no further third party negaitiations or discussions other than our word was our bond. Complicated by the 'fact' that much was not a word spoken but words unspoken. But nevertheless agreed.
I am left with the conclusion therefore that being truthful to one's self preceeds honouring another. And in honouring another it is an expectation that the other will honour in return. Reciprocity as such forms the basis of most of what we would all agree are both sacred and profane relationships upon which there stands some surety of predctability and therefore safety.
I have had to ask for release more than once. As a submissive I have looked to myself in each and everyone of those situations and looked deep to see if I broke my word. If I failed to honour my agreements.
There were no sanctions. There was no pay-cut. There was no trade union to represent me. There was no right to redress.
Releasing oneself when one feels the other has been dishonourable is painful. It is a full of grief as a situation where one has been rleased. Undertsanding and insight into the conditions of release and taking responsibility for it does not lessen that sense of loss, or the free fall of freedom.
There is often no-one one can go to to help with the burden of the loss and the drop.
Yes a bdsm world without honour is quite different to anything I have experienced in my professional life.
It's not off topic.



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Free woman
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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/28/2009 1:16:16 PM   
BoundDragon


Posts: 265
Joined: 3/20/2007
Status: offline 		I value honor very highly. It seems that the majority of everyday society have forgotten all about it which really does sadden me.
I have noticed a trend though... within lifestylers it does seem to live on and it still has a value. Maybe this is the reason I feel I belong, not because of my preferences and kinks.

I have always lived by certain beliefs ond morals. They make me who I am and as long as I stick to them I know I can sleep at night.

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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/28/2009 1:23:25 PM   
TurboJugend


Posts: 481
Joined: 6/15/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vasha

death before dishonor!
no im not kidding.

~vasha


kidding;
does that mean a short life?

seriously;
where does honour start. When is one dishonoured?

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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/29/2009 8:40:55 AM   
BarnacleBill


Posts: 51
Joined: 6/12/2009
Status: offline 		Honor is always a good goal for both partners to reach if possible. To your ownself be true, for you have to live with yourself and the actions you do thru life.

Honesty always goes well with Honor and that would mean being very honest with each other from the start. Let your true selves come forth and you will be happy for the rest of your relation ship whether in real life or BDSM.

Do not try to change a dis-honest person as you will only succeed in becoming more like them!

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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/29/2009 9:09:28 AM   
TurboJugend


Posts: 481
Joined: 6/15/2009
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quote:

Do not try to change a dis-honest person as you will only succeed in becoming more like them!


could you please explain that?

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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/29/2009 10:00:46 AM   
Zeknpet


Posts: 38
Joined: 1/31/2005
Status: offline 		*Long post alert!

The larger society is expressing a preference for peaceful coexistence over centrist idealogues. The concept of honor is a matter of self definition. Nearly everyone will do something 'dishonorable' to nearly everyone else at some point and smacks of judgemenalism and confrontation. Please reference the term 'moral relativism'. No one stands still on the path of life either. I can name quite a few people who's chaotic amoral lives TAUGHT them humility, reverence for others, empathy or self esteem all of which are keys to a sense of honor.

___The Crusades were expeditions undertaken, in fulfilment of a solemn vow, to deliver the Holy Places from Mohammedan tyranny.
The origin of the word crusade may be traced to the cross made of cloth and worn as a badge on the outer garment of those who took part in these enterprises. Medieval writers use the terms crux (pro cruce transmarina, Charter of 1284, cited by Du Cange s.v. crux), croisement (Joinville), croiserie (Monstrelet), etc. Since the Middle Ages the meaning of the word crusade has been extended to include all wars undertaken in pursuance of a vow, and directed against infidels, i.e. against Mohammedans, pagans, heretics, or those under the ban of excommunication. The wars waged by the Spaniards against the Moors constituted a continual crusade from the eleventh to the sixteenth century; in the north of Europe crusades were organized against the Prussians and Lithuanians; the extermination of the Albigensian heresy was due to a crusade, and, in the thirteenth century the popes preached crusades against John Lackland and Frederick II. But modern literature has abused the word by applying it to all wars of a religious character, as, for instance, the expedition of Heraclius against the Persians in the seventh century and the conquest of Saxony by Charlemagne. (1)

___Classical astronomy followed principles established by Aristotle. Aristotle accepted the idea that there were four physical elements — earth, water, air, and fire. He put the earth in the center of the universe and contended that these elements were below the moon, which was the closest celestial body. There were seven planets, or wandering stars, because they had a course through the zodiac in addition to traveling around the earth: the moon, Mercury, Venus, the sun, Mars, Jupiter. Beyond that were the fixed stars. The physical elements, according to Aristotle moved vertically, depending on their ‘heaviness’ or ‘gravity’; the celestial bodies were not physical but a ‘fifth element’ or ‘quintessence’ whose nature was to move in perfect circles around the earth, making a daily rotation. Aristotle envisioned the earth as the true center of all the circles or ‘orbs’ carrying the heavenly bodies around it and all motion as ‘uniform,’ that is, unchanging. (2)

___During the European Middle Ages, the Islamic world was the center of astronomical thought and activity. During the ninth century several aspects of Ptolemy's solar theory were recalculated. Ibn al-Haytham in the tenth-eleventh century wrote a scathing critique of Ptolemy's work: “Ptolemy assumed an arrangement that cannot exist, and the fact that this arrangement produces in his imagination the motions that belong to the planets does not free him from the error he committed in his assumed arrangement, for the existing motions of the planets cannot be the result of an arrangement that is impossible to exist” (quoted in Rosen 1984, 174). Swerdlow and Neugebauer (46-48) stressed that the thirteenth-century Maragha school was also important in finding errors and correcting Ptolemy: “The method of the Maragha planetary models was to break up the equant motion in Ptolemy's models into two or more components of uniform circular motion, physically the uniform rotation of spheres, that together control the direction and distance of the center of the epicycle, so that it comes to lie in nearly the same position it would have in Ptolemy's model, and always moves uniformly with respect to the equant.” They found many devices used by Copernicus similar to those used by various Maragha astronomers[4] and noted that their ideas could have entered fifteenth-century Italy through Byzantine scholars.(3)


Honor, in my admittedly less than humble opinion is a romantic notion and is really jargon to lend weight to idealogues.

What previous society was ever correct in it's assumptions of how things work?

To repeat an action repeatedly expecting a differing result is a common reference to a form of insanity, yet we, as a society in fact all societies and we as a species indulge in it liberally and in most instances to disagree is socially painful - up to and including deaths of millions. Please also reference the term 'cognitive dissonance'.





(1): http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04543c.htm
(2), (3): http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/copernicus/


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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/29/2009 10:07:49 AM   
TurboJugend


Posts: 481
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quote:

Honor, in my admittedly less than humble opinion is a romantic notion and is really jargon to lend weight to idealogues.


that is nicely put. 

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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/29/2009 10:43:45 AM   
Zeknpet


Posts: 38
Joined: 1/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Do not try to change a dis-honest person as you will only succeed in becoming more like them! - BarnacleBill

quote:

could you please explain that? - TurboJugend


Pandora's box.

A liar stands more chance of teaching someone to lie. Someone naiive to the ways and means of the forked tongue can't UNteach a liar.

Kinda how it is with prisons. It's more difficult to change behavior patterns amidst a sea of people with the same dysfunctions.

and..
Re:
quote:

that is nicely put. - TurboJegend


Thank you.





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RE: A Matter of Honor - 7/29/2009 10:46:40 AM   
TurboJugend


Posts: 481
Joined: 6/15/2009
Status: offline 		yvw :)

Does it mean we should stop trying to help "bad"people? Or is that resolute.


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