Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/27/2009 6:22:03 PM)

Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors



Sun Jul 26, 9:03 pm ET COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. – Soldiers from an Army unit that had 10 infantrymen accused of murder, attempted murder or manslaughter after returning to civilian life described a breakdown in discipline during their Iraq deployment in which troops murdered civilians, a newspaper reported Sunday.

Some Fort Carson, Colo.-based soldiers have had trouble adjusting to life back in the United States, saying they refused to seek help, or were belittled or punished for seeking help. Others say they were ignored by their commanders, or coped through drug and alcohol abuse before they allegedly committed crimes, The Gazette of Colorado Springs said.

The Gazette based its report on months of interviews with soldiers and their families, medical and military records, court documents and photographs.

Several soldiers said unit discipline deteriorated while in Iraq.

"Toward the end, we were so mad and tired and frustrated," said Daniel Freeman. "You came too close, we lit you up. You didn't stop, we ran your car over with the Bradley," an armored fighting vehicle.

With each roadside bombing, soldiers would fire in all directions "and just light the whole area up," said Anthony Marquez, a friend of Freeman in the 1st Battalion, 9th Infantry Regiment. "If anyone was around, that was their fault. We smoked 'em."

Taxi drivers got shot for no reason, and others were dropped off bridges after interrogations, said Marcus Mifflin, who was eventually discharged with post traumatic stress syndrome.

"You didn't get blamed unless someone could be absolutely sure you did something wrong," he said.

Soldiers interviewed by The Gazette cited lengthy deployments, being sent back into battle after surviving war injuries that would have been fatal in previous conflicts, and engaging in some of the bloodiest combat in Iraq. The soldiers describing those experiences were part of the 3,500-soldier unit now called the 4th Infantry Division's 4th Brigade Combat Team.

Since 2005, some brigade soldiers also have been involved in brawls, beatings, rapes, DUIs, drug deals, domestic violence, shootings, stabbings, kidnapping and suicides.

The unit was deployed for a year to Iraq's Sunni Triangle in September 2004. Sixty-four unit soldiers were killed and more than 400 wounded — about double the average for Army brigades in Iraq, according to Fort Carson. In 2007, the unit served a bloody 15-month mission in Baghdad. It's currently deployed to the Khyber Pass region in Afghanistan.



Arpig -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/27/2009 8:39:58 PM)

You take young men in the prime of their life pumped full of testosterone and train them to kill as many people as quickly and efficiently as possible and then just set them loose on society, well you are bound to have problems. All militaries the world over should have some sort of decompression system to unwind soldiers returning from combat, especially a non-traditional conflict such as is being fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. To expect there to be no repercussions of the sort of barbarization and desensitizing that these soldiers go through just to maintain a semblance of sanity in the field is ridiculous.

Now, that all being said, I in now way condone the crimes of these ex soldiers, if they wish to plead insanity or PTSD then let them take their chances with a jury. However, the fact that so many men from this unit have seemingly snapped does seem to point to a serious problem, something happened that led to the disproportionate number of murders and other violent crimes by the ex members of this particular unit. I will not hazzard a guess as to just what may be the cause, but it definitely needs looking into.



rulemylife -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/27/2009 9:38:15 PM)

To be honest, that was not my point in posting this.

It was that so many on here applauding Bush for taking this action forget the consequences to the innocent civilians that these soldiers claim to have "lit up" and the consequences to the soldiers themselves and their families.



Arpig -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/27/2009 10:05:53 PM)

Ah, well there's the problem. I really don't waste a lot of my time worrying about Bush anymore. Never really did worry about him too much....one of the benefits of being a foreigner I guess.



rulemylife -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/27/2009 10:19:22 PM)

Not really so much about him specifically, though he did initiate this debacle in Iraq, but the idea so many people give in to flag-waving patriotic bullshit without any idea of what actually happens during the conflict and after.



DarkSteven -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/27/2009 10:23:52 PM)

Just some local perspective - I lived in Colorado Springs for over four years recently (2002-2006) and the Fort Carson area was the bad part of town.  Lots of crime.  Local rumor had it that the soldiers were the cause.

I don't know if the Iraq war was the cause or simple poor leadership on base.



aphotic -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/27/2009 10:26:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife



quote:

Since 2005, some brigade soldiers also have been involved in brawls, beatings, rapes, DUIs, drug deals, domestic violence, shootings, stabbings, kidnapping and suicides.


Does this mean to imply that if you take some of the less refined and finespun individuals of a country, and give them a callous setting such as the military, that bad things might happen?

Oh jeez, call Einstein from the grave, we have a breakthrough. Heroes die, otherwise they'll come home and fuck their reputation up.



Starbuck09 -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/27/2009 11:29:44 PM)

The faults and merits of the Iraq war and it's instigation are seperate from the disgraceful behaviour of a tiny percentage of soldiers who have acted revoltingly. 



Starbuck09 -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/27/2009 11:32:59 PM)

''Heroes die otherwise they come back and fuck their reputation up?''
If you send hundreds of thousands of soldiers to a warzone and fail to provide adequate psychological care and rehabilitation schemes expect problems when you spit them back out onto the streets having used them up. it has nothing to do with being ''less refined''  or ''finespun''.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/28/2009 5:21:54 AM)

FR:

Gee ... who were the soldiers interviewed?

Marquez was the first in his brigade to kill someone after an Iraq tour. In 2006, he used a stun gun to shock a drug dealer in Widefield, Colo., in a dispute over a marijuana sale, then shot and killed him.

...

The Army trains soldiers to be that way, said Kenneth Eastridge, an infantry specialist serving 10 years for accessory to murder.



What about the Army's "not caring" about them when they got back?


Many returning soldiers did seek counseling.

...

At Fort Carson, Eastridge and other soldiers said they lied during an army screening about their deployment that was designed to detect potential behavioral problems.

...

The Army has declared soldiers' mental health a top priority.

...

Fort Carson officers are trained to help troops showing stress signs, and the base has doubled its number of behavioral-health counselors. Soldiers seeing an Army doctor for any reason undergo a mental health evaluation.



And what about all the civilian crimes in the US and "war crimes" in Iraq that are discussed in the article?


While most unit soldiers coped post-deployment, a handful went on to kill back home in Colorado.

...

Soldier John Needham described a number of alleged crimes in a December 2007 letter to the Inspector General's Office of Fort Carson ... The Army's criminal investigation division interviewed unit soldiers and said it couldn't substantiate the allegations.


So ... what do we have in this story? Not much it seems.

Where are the pre-Iraq war crime stats for soldiers at Ft Carson, in comparison to the current period?

Missing.

Where is any kind of substantial proof that the "war crimes" mentioned by the criminals quoted in the article?

There isn't any.

While I know that it is difficult to serve in a combat zone for long periods of time (I think I've got a bit more personal experience in that than the article's author, or the OP), and some people certainly may have problems in civilian life, the truth is that this article is a sensationalist article, written to sell newspapers, and not to do any kind of real investigation or evaluation of the situation.

But it's certainly "juicy" for someone like rulemylife to use in his furthering anti-Bush, and anti-Iraq campaign, but it's pretty worthless for any kind of considered debate on the subject.

Firm



FullCircle -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/28/2009 5:39:28 AM)

Either these people turned into murderers upon their return or they were basically murderers before they left, which would you prefer to be the case? I was under the impresion that they are taught to kill but have the discipline to distinguish when it is wrong or right to do so.

All this says to me is the selection process obviously was aiming for quantity rather than quality at the time. It's actually nothing new people struggling to adapt to civilian life but not often do you hear of it resulting in murder, perhaps violent assault but not murder. Doesn’t speak volumes for their actual rationale in terms of when to use force in Iraq.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/28/2009 6:00:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Either these people turned into murderers upon their return or they were basically murderers before they left, which would you prefer to be the case? I was under the impresion that they are taught to kill but have the discipline to distinguish when it is wrong or right to do so.

The article tries to make the argument (or give the appearance), that the soldiers of Ft Carson are out of control, and raging homicidal maniacs, and that it is all the fault of the military.

Maybe. Maybe not.

They use anecdotal evidence, quotes from self-admitted, or convicted criminals who wore a uniform, whose words seem to be self-serving and exculpatory ("The Army made me do it!").

Not saying that their experiences might not have had an impact. Just that there is no causal link proven to any degree of credibility.

A criminal (or an individual prone to criminal behavior) before enlisting, doesn't necessarily change his spots just because he is (or was) in the military.

Show me facts and figures, and we can discuss the real impact of the war on individual soldiers.

Show me a sensational article, and I call it for what it is.


quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

All this says to me is the selection process obviously was aiming for quantity rather than quality at the time. It's actually nothing new people struggling to adapt to civilian life but not often do you hear of it resulting in murder, perhaps violent assault but not murder. Doesn’t speak volumes for their actual rationale in terms of when to use force in Iraq.

... the selection process obviously was aiming for quantity rather than quality at the time.

I'm not sure this follows, logically, from anything in the article or the discussion so far.

... but not often do you hear of it resulting in murder,

How many murders? And how does that number (whatever it is) compare to historical trends at Ft Carson (or other military posts?).

Without some basis of comparison, any conclusion is specious.

Firm



Starbuck09 -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/28/2009 6:19:07 AM)

No Fullcircle it does not often result in murder and nor has it done so here. The percentages of returning soldiers who commit murder is very small. You were also under the correct impression that the army teaches when to use lethaal force and when not to. That not all adhere to it is not a failing of the army but the individual.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/28/2009 7:14:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

To be honest, that was not my point in posting this.

It was that so many on here applauding Bush for taking this action forget the consequences to the innocent civilians that these soldiers claim to have "lit up" and the consequences to the soldiers themselves and their families.

Yeah, it's a shame we didn't elect a President who would "CHANGE!" that and get us out of Iraq. Instead we have one who continued with a third Bush term of military occupation, additional troop deployment and escalation in Afghanistan, and economic stimulus. But hey - the job market is much better - at least for public employee unions and bureaucrats.

quote:

Others say they were ignored by their commanders, or coped through drug and alcohol abuse before they allegedly committed crimes, The Gazette of Colorado Springs said.

I apprereicate the REAL reason you must be posting this - Transparency and the lack of accountability. Why is this Administration ignoring this situation? All the commanders and officers retired and moved out of the country? All these soldiers involved and no 'Abu Ghraib' style photo ops? Why is this being swept under the carpet? There should be a Congressional investigation! Lets get to the bottom of this obvious lack of leadership and integrity with the commanders involved, right up to the commander in chief.



FullCircle -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/28/2009 7:26:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
You were also under the correct impression that the army teaches when to use lethaal force and when not to. That not all adhere to it is not a failing of the army but the individual.


Are you familiar with the legal term 'Strict liability'?



Starbuck09 -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/28/2009 7:38:48 AM)

I know what it is fullcircle though I am not intimately familiar with it. Regardless it does not change the fact that the army teaches very clearly when it is acceptable to kill and when it is not. That a very small minority of soldiers do not adhere to this rule is not a failing of the armies teaching ability but the sole fault of the individual soldier.



FullCircle -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/28/2009 7:49:07 AM)

My point is a soldier is a product of their training; if as a manufacturer your end product is dangerous to society you are liable regardless of how it may be misused. It is your responsibility to have in place a QA process which stops dangerous products being released.

So going back the actual situation if your QA process doesn't spot psychopathic individuals and allows those individuals to gain training in easier ways to kill people then you are liable. Otherwise manufacturers of any other product are not liable if their product is used in a way they didn't intend.

This is my view and this is why the selection process is so important and why slightly more people should be refused than allowed into the military. If you reduce the strictness of the process to make up numbers then you’ll end up with dangerous defective end products.



Starbuck09 -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/28/2009 8:03:32 AM)

One does not have to be a psycopath to kill though fullcircle particuarly under the conditions that serving soldiers face. The army is not a company nor are the soldiers it produces soley products. They also have free will. What is important is that the army trains these men so that they can perform their duties and they can tell when to killl and when not to. If they choose to ignore this training as a very small number do then that is the fault of the individual not the organisation. One cannot predict how any soldier will react under the stress of deployment particuarly to a warzone as volatile as Iraq, what the army can and has an obligation to do is ensure that the soldiers it produces are CAPABLE of discharging their duties clearly it cannot be liable for men exercising their free will to not do so. When a soldier deserts out of fear that is not a failing of military training but the failing of the individual soldier to carry out that training. I understand what you are saying but it is impossible to programme humans only to train them. The bigger the army the harder it is to ensure that dangerous or unstable individuals slip through the net and you are right that when an army increase recruiting by large amounts it becomes easier for mistakes to be made. However I think the American army has actually got reason to be quitely pleaseed with it's trining and selection process, hundreds of thousands of soldiers have fought in Iraq and Afghanistan and of these only  a miniscule percentage of these have commited murder.



Irishknight -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/28/2009 8:25:12 AM)

So if a person kills another person with a shovel then its the shovel manufacturer's fault? Is that what I'm hearing someone say? The shovel was obviously dangerous so the factory is at fault.

I remember many classes on ethics when I was serving this country. I'm pretty sure they covered when not to kill. As others have said, soldiers have free will. The ones who commit murder chose to commit murder regardless of their training.

If you want to think of them as a product, try comparing them to a table saw. Table saws have safety equipment built into their design. Most accidents happen because someone ignored the safety warnings, disabled the safety equipment or otherwise operated them in an incorrect manner. The improper use of equipment is not the fault of the manufacturer but the user.



FullCircle -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/28/2009 8:26:42 AM)

If I employ someone in a factory and that person gets themselves killed or gets someone else killed through their own freewill who is liable? I can give them all the H&S training in the world but mark my words if someone endangers their own life or that of someone else there will be a legal investigation which will go at least to the level of that of their supervisor, such a process is the only way to learn how mistakes are made and so will always occur.

This is not an apparent legal injustice unique to that of the military and those misrepresenting it. You are correct the numbers are tiny but the military is still liable for the few that do commit such crimes and should make reparations to the victims of such crimes. I admit it is a bit of a grey area as going through such a training process would have an effect on your psychology so you can’t easily say if that tiny majority would have still committed those crimes if they hadn’t undergone that experience.

I only mention psychopaths because this is something that has obvious character traits that can be spotted in a test. If the number of psychopaths in the military is greater than 1% of the general military population (as detected after the fact) then you’d have to say the process is attracting the wrong types of people and should be revised. This is one of the things that can be done.



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