RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 7:17:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

You're still not addressing the source of the problem.


Which is?



subfever -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 7:18:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

You're still not addressing the source of the problem.


humor me. what do you see as the source of the problem. and what are your solutions.


I'll give you a clue... it's the same reason why 1% of the people own 40% of all the wealth in the world, and thousands of people starve to death every single day.



rulemylife -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 7:21:08 PM)

Uh, do you think you can just state your point so we don't have to go through another ten posts of guessing games?



subfever -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 7:22:14 PM)

I could, but it would be far more effective if someone else came up with the answer.



QuietlySeeking -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 7:23:36 PM)

Problem #1: Current government run programs give direct access to specialists.
Solution #1: Force government run programs to mimic for-profit systems which require people to visit primary care physicians and be referred to specialists.

Problem #2: Current gov't run programs allow multiple doctors to run the same diagnostic test and pay for it multiple times.
Solution #2: Require the gov't run programs to subscribe to single-diagnostic tests that are then shared amongst providers.

Problem #3: Current gov't run programs do not have lifetime caps on insurance which allow people to continue to make whatever healthcare choices without consequence.
Solution #3: Almost every private insurer has lifetime caps on insurance payouts.  Only the most expensive treatments over many years would every reach these lifetime caps.

Problem #4: Emergency room care is the "primary care" for most below the poverty line recipients.
Solution #4: Make emergency room care via gov't run programs the same as private insurers.  If you aren't admitted, you pay a larger portion of the bill to prevent people from using ERs as physicians' offices.

Problem #5: Everyone can't afford insurance.
Solution #5: Give everyone access to the discounts that insurers negotiate through a pay-minimally-for-minimum coverage resolution.  In the case of my wife's latest pregnancy, it reduced the hospital bill by 75%.

Make medical billing fraud a felony for all people involved.  Make medical billing fraud an offense that would revoke a medical license.  Publish medical outcomes publically so that doctors and hospitals that have better patient outcomes can profit from more patients.  One physician with which I was involved had such a high positive outcome rate that I was glad to wait 2.5 hours after my appointment time to see him...I knew I had the best doctor I could possible have.  There are many different ways to combat the rising rates of healthcare...and very few of them have been done in the largest gov't run healthcare plans yet.

What makes us think that an inefficient bureaucracy is going to manage our healthcare any better?

SSI disability recipients routinely have to go to court to force Social Security to give them benefits that medical professionals have deemed necessary.  Do we really want the same situation for our healthcare system...some faceless bureaucrat telling you that you can't have X because it is unnecessary?



rulemylife -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 7:25:06 PM)

Do I get a prize if I get it right?



subfever -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 7:34:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

Problem #1: Current government run programs give direct access to specialists.
Solution #1: Force government run programs to mimic for-profit systems which require people to visit primary care physicians and be referred to specialists.

Problem #2: Current gov't run programs allow multiple doctors to run the same diagnostic test and pay for it multiple times.
Solution #2: Require the gov't run programs to subscribe to single-diagnostic tests that are then shared amongst providers.

Problem #3: Current gov't run programs do not have lifetime caps on insurance which allow people to continue to make whatever healthcare choices without consequence.
Solution #3: Almost every private insurer has lifetime caps on insurance payouts.  Only the most expensive treatments over many years would every reach these lifetime caps.

Problem #4: Emergency room care is the "primary care" for most below the poverty line recipients.
Solution #4: Make emergency room care via gov't run programs the same as private insurers.  If you aren't admitted, you pay a larger portion of the bill to prevent people from using ERs as physicians' offices.

Problem #5: Everyone can't afford insurance.
Solution #5: Give everyone access to the discounts that insurers negotiate through a pay-minimally-for-minimum coverage resolution.  In the case of my wife's latest pregnancy, it reduced the hospital bill by 75%.

Make medical billing fraud a felony for all people involved.  Make medical billing fraud an offense that would revoke a medical license.  Publish medical outcomes publically so that doctors and hospitals that have better patient outcomes can profit from more patients.  One physician with which I was involved had such a high positive outcome rate that I was glad to wait 2.5 hours after my appointment time to see him...I knew I had the best doctor I could possible have.  There are many different ways to combat the rising rates of healthcare...and very few of them have been done in the largest gov't run healthcare plans yet.

What makes us think that an inefficient bureaucracy is going to manage our healthcare any better?

SSI disability recipients routinely have to go to court to force Social Security to give them benefits that medical professionals have deemed necessary.  Do we really want the same situation for our healthcare system...some faceless bureaucrat telling you that you can't have X because it is unnecessary?



Why is everyone so quick with band-aids? And how can band-aids stop hemorrhaging?



subfever -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 7:37:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Do I get a prize if I get it right?



Absolutely! ... [:D]


(BTW... twice now on this thread, I've gotten pop-up messages telling me I can't post consecutively in such a short time period. I've never seen this before. Is it new?)



MzMia -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 7:43:59 PM)

QuietlySeeking can all the solutions you listed be accomplished
by using a single payer health care system?

Are you saying you don't support creating the Single Payer Health Care System?
 



subfever -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 7:44:41 PM)

quote:

I'll give you a clue... it's the same reason why 1% of the people own 40% of all the wealth in the world, and thousands of people starve to death every single day.


I could also have added that it's the same reason why 45 million people don't pay income taxes in the US, and millions are without health insurance.



subfever -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 7:47:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

QuietlySeeking can all the solutions you listed be accomplished
by using a single payer health care system?

Are you saying you don't support creating the Single Payer Health Care System?
 



I'm saying that we need to start addressing the source of the problem.

The problem is that far too many people don't have the money to pay for health insurance or for health care.

Why don't they have the money?



MzMia -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 7:48:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever


quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

QuietlySeeking can all the solutions you listed be accomplished
by using a single payer health care system?

Are you saying you don't support creating the Single Payer Health Care System?
 



I'm saying that we need to start addressing the source of the problem.

The problem is that far too many people don't have the money to pay for health insurance or for health care.

Why don't they have the money?


Because we have outsourced our country, and sold ourselves down the damn river.
How is the free trade system working for us?

It all boils down to what this country values and wants to prioritize.
I still say big business/drug companies and insurance companies will block
a Single Payer Health Care System.
In the end, it is all about the money.



subfever -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 8:01:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever


quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

QuietlySeeking can all the solutions you listed be accomplished
by using a single payer health care system?

Are you saying you don't support creating the Single Payer Health Care System?
 



I'm saying that we need to start addressing the source of the problem.

The problem is that far too many people don't have the money to pay for health insurance or for health care.

Why don't they have the money?


Because we have outsourced our country, and sold ourselves down the damn river.
How is the free trade system working for us?

It all boils down to what this country values and wants to prioritize.
I still say big business/drug companies and insurance companies will block
a Single Payer Health Care System.
In the end, it is all about the money.


You're getting closer. It is about the money.

Yes, the US has been outsourced, but we didn't outsource our country.

And we didn't sell ourselves down the river.

Those are the words used by collectivists.

Who's behind it all? The 45 million people who don't pay income taxes, or the 1% of the population who owns 40% of the wealth?





MzMia -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 8:03:00 PM)

come on subfever, we all know who is behind " it all". 
 
THE MAN!



tazzygirl -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 8:06:27 PM)

oh gesh! i dont have the patience to pay 20 questions. and i dont expect people to "give" me anything. my problem with health care is that is was ALLOWED to get this far out of hand to begin with. bteween kick backs, profit margins and legal fees, the poorer of this country is suffering. and now its starting to hit the wallets of the richer, they are complaining, which is why this is even becomming an issue now.



rulemylife -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 8:07:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

Problem #1: Current government run programs give direct access to specialists.
Solution #1: Force government run programs to mimic for-profit systems which require people to visit primary care physicians and be referred to specialists.


How is direct access to specialists less efficient?

If I have a foot problem why should I have to go to a primary physician to tell me I have a foot problem and refer me to a podiatrist?

Wouldn't cutting out the middle man make it more efficient?

quote:


Problem #2: Current gov't run programs allow multiple doctors to run the same diagnostic test and pay for it multiple times.
Solution #2: Require the gov't run programs to subscribe to single-diagnostic tests that are then shared amongst providers.


And this is a problem unique to government programs?

Which in itself is funny, because we've had a big outcry over computerized health records, which the health care proposals call for and which would eliminate these types of redundancy.

But, the government would know your health history if we actually put health records into databases, and that seems to be scary for some, though I've yet to understand the reasoning.

quote:


Problem #3: Current gov't run programs do not have lifetime caps on insurance which allow people to continue to make whatever healthcare choices without consequence.
Solution #3: Almost every private insurer has lifetime caps on insurance payouts.  Only the most expensive treatments over many years would every reach these lifetime caps.


Do you really believe the majority of people enjoy going to doctors and taking advantage of the resort-like hospital atmospheres that they would take advantage of the system to spend as much time in the hospital as possible?

But what about the people who really need the treatment when they reach the private caps?

Just too bad for them and let them die?

quote:


Problem #4: Emergency room care is the "primary care" for most below the poverty line recipients.
Solution #4: Make emergency room care via gov't run programs the same as private insurers.  If you aren't admitted, you pay a larger portion of the bill to prevent people from using ERs as physicians' offices.


Any facts to back your arguments?  Have any proof on this primary care theory?  And for that matter, what is it you are defining as primary care? 

quote:


What makes us think that an inefficient bureaucracy is going to manage our healthcare any better?


Are you kidding me?

An inefficient bureaucracy is the very definition of any HMO or other health insurer you can name.



subfever -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 8:09:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

come on subfever, we all know who is behind " it all". 
 
THE MAN!



If this is true, why are you focused on bigger and better band-aids?



rulemylife -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 8:11:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever


(BTW... twice now on this thread, I've gotten pop-up messages telling me I can't post consecutively in such a short time period. I've never seen this before. Is it new?)


No, it's been around, happened to me too once or twice.



subfever -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 8:12:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

oh gesh! i dont have the patience to pay 20 questions. and i dont expect people to "give" me anything. my problem with health care is that is was ALLOWED to get this far out of hand to begin with. bteween kick backs, profit margins and legal fees, the poorer of this country is suffering. and now its starting to hit the wallets of the richer, they are complaining, which is why this is even becomming an issue now.



Allowed by who?

Would you agree or disagree that in the end, the people will get the government that they deserve?



subfever -> RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? (7/29/2009 8:18:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

come on subfever, we all know who is behind " it all". 
 
THE MAN!




And just to make sure I'm not making an erroneous assumption here, would you please define the collectivist's exact definition of "THE MAN?" ... [;)]



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