RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison.

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Loki45 -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/29/2009 10:12:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen To which my reply was aimed Cruz and Hernandez certainly weren't in prison for a reason and certainly should not have been left to rot. Before such a mindset is even remotely reasonable we have to ensure that innocent people aren't the ones being left to rot. No, I understand your point. But in that chaos of imbalance there is balance. For every person saying they don't give a rat's ass about the guilty, let 'em rot...there's a counterpart in an 'innocence project' trying to be sure the innocent are set free. As I said, it's a flawed system, we all have our parts to play. But it is 'our' system. Making it better takes time, it doesn't happen in leaps and bounds.

Arpig -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/29/2009 10:13:30 PM)
quote: But I can't say I support a notion such as abolishing the death penalty because the system that uses it is flawed. the death penalty is murder by the state, which means by each and everyone of us. I do not agree to be party to any murder, luckily Canada has no death penalty.

Loki45 -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/29/2009 10:15:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: scarlethiney Sure, you can ask me and I would be willing to bet that I feel "almost" exactly as you do. Just because I don't believe the prison system fair or believe in the death penalty does NOT mean I don't think there are extreme circumstances where force needs to be used, it also doesn't mean that I don't think murders shouldn't spend life in prison. I do not however feel that people in the position of enforcing the law should be "gleeful" about killing others and brag about it. Next question? Why is it a cop cannot feel joy at being able to save a life? Why can they not express relief that an innocent has been saved and a guilty person has perished instead? I can assure you, for every cop you hear saying "yep, I killed the SOB" there is also a cop (likely the same one) who is in a struggle internally. No one 'wants' to kill someone (except for perhaps murderers). However, when the death of one saves another....I see no reason in someone being able to express relief, or even joy in that, not necessarily for the loss of life, but for the protection of another.

Loki45 -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/29/2009 10:19:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: But I can't say I support a notion such as abolishing the death penalty because the system that uses it is flawed. the death penalty is murder by the state, which means by each and everyone of us. I do not agree to be party to any murder, luckily Canada has no death penalty. This is the kind of stance I can't help but take issue with. If we say to murders and rapists and the killers of kids that we will care for them and feed them for the rest of their lives, if only they commit this heinous act.....what is their motivation not to? I've read countless stories about murderers and rapist re-offending, some of those even reoffend while they are in prison. Seems to me that the only way to assure that does not happen is to use the old 'eye for an eye' method.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/29/2009 10:35:57 PM)
I'm not going to quote. Hey Loki, I knew you were going to disagree with me. No problem. I'm not mad at you brother smiles. I've been trying my hardest to get along with you, because I didn't want to go down that road again. It's just stupid. You and i are too mature for that stupid shit. We disagree with each other on a few things. I knew we'd disagree on this. Hell, I knew a lot of folks would disagree with me on this. I used to be for the death penalty. I didn't listen to others. I was for it. But I changed my mind. I started to see that innocent people might actually die for crimes they didn't do. I couldn't get my head wrapped around that. It bothered me. So I can't support it anymore. I have met prison inmates. I am good friends with some of them. I can't place myself in the outside position role anymore. I've met these people. Not all of them are bad. Most of them made a foolish mistake. They deserve another chance. They deserve forgiveness. I can't walk away from that. I have to oblige their request. I feel obligated. I grew up in an upper middle class family. I drank, I did drugs, I got into fights, etc. I got away with all of that. If I had lived in a poor neighborhood, I would have got sent to jail. I can't ignore that. It's not fair.

SummerWind -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/29/2009 10:41:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: scarlethiney We do not have a forgiving society. We are a punishing society. You have got to be kidding... http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=san+francisco+police&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-150&fr2=tab-web&tnr=21&vid=000117126108

Loki45 -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/29/2009 10:50:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou I'm not going to quote. Hey Loki, I knew you were going to disagree with me. No problem. I'm not mad at you brother smiles. I've been trying my hardest to get along with you, because I didn't want to go down that road again. It's just stupid. You and i are too mature for that stupid shit. We disagree with each other on a few things. I knew we'd disagree on this. Hell, I knew a lot of folks would disagree with me on this. I'm reminded of the scene from American Wedding where Finch and Stiffler are acting nice toward each other. You can see it's unusual for them and they don't know how to feel about it. Suddenly, Stiffler says "I fucking hate not hating you." To which Finch replies "I did fuck your mother.........twice." After which Stiffler says "Oooooohhhhh that's better, fucker!" Back on point... quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou I used to be for the death penalty. I didn't listen to others. I was for it. But I changed my mind. I started to see that innocent people might actually die for crimes they didn't do. I couldn't get my head wrapped around that. It bothered me. So I can't support it anymore. I have met prison inmates. I am good friends with some of them. I can't place myself in the outside position role anymore. I've met these people. Not all of them are bad. Most of them made a foolish mistake. They deserve another chance. They deserve forgiveness. I can't walk away from that. I have to oblige their request. I feel obligated. I grew up in an upper middle class family. I drank, I did drugs, I got into fights, etc. I got away with all of that. If I had lived in a poor neighborhood, I would have got sent to jail. I can't ignore that. It's not fair. I know there are those who 'just made a mistake,' but at some point, the mistake excuse no longer holds up. Stole something once? Ok, moment of weakness. Stole twice? Well, c'mon now...you know that's wrong. Stole three times? Alright, that's just a pattern. For drugs...hell I don't think drugs should be illegal. I don't use either way, but, like alcohol, I don't give a rat's ass if someone else does. I think making them legal would help to empy the prison systems of all the bullshit offenders and make room for the ones that need to be there. But hating on the system put in place to enforce our laws doesn't seem to do much. I hear (supposedly) they are on the verge of considering legalization of pot in some cities in California. They didn't accomplish that merely by blasting the prison system. They did a multi-faceted attack including highlighting the medicinal purposes and a whole host of other things to get to where they are now. As for the death penalty....I know it's a flawed system. But it's all we've got. I want the system improved so innocent ones don't get the death penalty, but I don't feel that ceasing its use altogether is the answer. Because as I pointed out in a previous post....what is a person's motivation not to go on a killing spree or commit some other heinous act if the worst thing we can threaten them with is free room and board for life? To those with a concience, prison is bad. To those who genuinely don't give a fuck....prison doesn't mean a damned thing.

Vendaval -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/29/2009 11:08:05 PM)
Fast Reply - Does anyone responding here have direct experience with any of the privately run prisons in the US or the UK? And what are the differences between a state system and a private system? There are several states in the US are contracting out for these services in an effort to save cost. http://www.correctionscorp.com/

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/29/2009 11:23:00 PM)
quote: I'm reminded of the scene from American Wedding where Finch and Stiffler are acting nice toward each other. You can see it's unusual for them and they don't know how to feel about it. Suddenly, Stiffler says "I fucking hate not hating you." To which Finch replies "I did fuck your mother.........twice." After which Stiffler says "Oooooohhhhh that's better, fucker!" I'm more reminded of the scene where Sean Penn beat those dudes for clear title in the pod. You do realize that you are liable for a felony and for the juvenille pod. Of course, you won' get that due to white boy politics. Only spics, niggers, and poor white trailer trash got sent off.

Arpig -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/29/2009 11:31:02 PM)
quote: If we say to murders and rapists and the killers of kids that we will care for them and feed them for the rest of their lives, if only they commit this heinous act.....what is their motivation not to? Holy crap!! Did you just say that we have to execute people otherwise other people will commit murder or rape intentionally just to get life imprisonment?? Please tell me I have somehow misunderstood. The death penalty is the taking of a life in my name. I do not consent to this, I do not wish to participate in murder, either directly or vicariously.

Loki45 -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/29/2009 11:50:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou I'm more reminded of the scene where Sean Penn beat those dudes for clear title in the pod. You do realize that you are liable for a felony and for the juvenille pod. Of course, you won' get that due to white boy politics. Only spics, niggers, and poor white trailer trash got sent off. As movie-savy as I am.....that one slipped right past me. What movie is that from?

Loki45 -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/29/2009 11:52:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Holy crap!! Did you just say that we have to execute people otherwise other people will commit murder or rape intentionally just to get life imprisonment?? Please tell me I have somehow misunderstood. Actually what I'm asking is what is a murderer's motivation not to murder if he knows his life is 'safe' and he will never receive anywhere close to the harm he inflicts on others?

DomKen -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/29/2009 11:52:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Vendaval Fast Reply - Does anyone responding here have direct experience with any of the privately run prisons in the US or the UK? And what are the differences between a state system and a private system? There are several states in the US are contracting out for these services in an effort to save cost. http://www.correctionscorp.com/ For profit prisons tend to more or less forced labor camps. Another major problem is that the prisoners are often transported outside of the state where they are supposed to be imprisoned. This puts an enormous hardship on the families.

scarlethiney -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/29/2009 11:52:48 PM)
It is obvious you know nothing about me. Trust me .................I am not kidding[8\|]

Arpig -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/29/2009 11:56:02 PM)
quote: Actually what I'm asking is what is a murderer's motivation not to murder if he knows his life is 'safe' and he will never receive anywhere close to the harm he inflicts on others? Good, I really was hoping i had misunderstood [:)]. But onto your point if the death penalty is the only deterrent that has any weight, then why isn't the murder rate much higher in countries without the death penalty? Or even in states without the death penalty for that matter?

DomKen -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/29/2009 11:56:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Holy crap!! Did you just say that we have to execute people otherwise other people will commit murder or rape intentionally just to get life imprisonment?? Please tell me I have somehow misunderstood. Actually what I'm asking is what is a murderer's motivation not to murder if he knows his life is 'safe' and he will never receive anywhere close to the harm he inflicts on others? Are you aware that states with the death penalty have higher murder rates than those without? There is absolutely no evidence that the death penalty acts as a deterrent. It is simply murder carried out in all of our names for revenge.

Loki45 -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/30/2009 12:03:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Good, I really was hoping i had misunderstood [:)]. But onto your point if the death penalty is the only deterrent that has any weight, then why isn't the murder rate much higher in countries without the death penalty? Or even in states without the death penalty for that matter? Search me. I have no clue. However what concerns me more than the deterrent to murder, is the fact that giving a murderer life gives him more chances to repeat his offense via escape, murdering another inmate, or even murdering a guard.

Loki45 -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/30/2009 12:04:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Are you aware that states with the death penalty have higher murder rates than those without? There is absolutely no evidence that the death penalty acts as a deterrent. It is simply murder carried out in all of our names for revenge. You can call it murder all you like. But I can assure you of one thing. A dead murderer cannot repeat his crime. A living one can, and in many cases has. Yes, the death penalty may be 'revenge,' to some. But I'm ok with that. Because I can say this honestly, where someone I love ever to meet that fate....I'd want revenge in a big way. And I'd get it one way or the other. In some cultures, revenge is a way to reclaim honor and let the victim truly rest. Perhaps it's one of those things we'll have to agree to disagree on.

dreamingofdaddy -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/30/2009 12:33:07 AM)
This would be why you have fewer numbers in prison in china..... http://www.amnesty.org.au/china/comments/10960/

hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/30/2009 5:14:51 AM)
When you start looking at numbers, don't Just look at the Overall numbers. Look at the numbers of first time convictions vs resitivism rates - the rate of those Returning because they've been caught a second... third... Tenth or Twelth.. time, doing the same things over and over again. Even those "non-violent" types that you advocate for - if they're in prison Again, after having been in previously and given a chance to shape up, then they obviously Aren't doing so. I'm not huge on Revenge - it seldom actually Works, and most frequently simply lowers us to the same dispicable level as those whom we would avenge ourselves against. I AM huge on the Permanent removal from society of those who repeated prove themselves incapable of living by the same rules as the rest of us. Not removal at my continued expense... Permanent Removal. Are any of us perfect? No. Are we all prone to mistakes? Absolutely. Are all those who are prone to mistakes prone to making the Type of mistake that turns All of society against them, and makes them utterly unfit for human company? Absolutely NOT. Are all those who are prone to mistakes prone to making the SAME mistakes over and over again while thinking they should be imune from Consequences of those mistakes? Again - absolutely Not. And I'll even go one further and say that what you are calling "mistakes" (as though it were accidental) - were Conscious Choices Made to Disregard Society's Rules. A "mistake" is a toddler shoplifting a pack of gum because mommy says no - getting their ass blistered for it - and growing up to respect the rules we live by. A consistantly repeating theif - he or she has made a Conscious Decision not to abide by the rules, even knowing that the Consequences for those actions is to go to prison Again. Someone who murders another in cold blood - who Chooses to take the life of someone else, outside the bounds of the rules society has laid down as acceptable - has made a Conscious Choice to ignore those rules, and isn't going to rehabilitate. Someone who rapes - regardless of gender - hasn't simply "made a mistake" - they've made a Conscious Choice to brutalize and abuse, for the sake of their own gratification and power - should they be given a slap on the wrist and sent back out to taste freedom again? Oh HELL NO - any and all of those should be permanently wiped from the gene pool of humanity - preferably in a manner which strikes fear into the hearts of others who would follow in their footsteps, who are currently thinking that since their Predecessors got away with "a mistake" then they can also hold society's standards in complete disregard without consequence.

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