RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (Full Version)

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Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (7/31/2009 5:04:55 PM)

Since the topic has been brought up by a number of people. She was in therapy for awhile, actually a few things she was calling me on is what prompted me to seek out a therapist.

Anyways, she stopped going because the therapist she was seeing left and the replacement she does not trust. So she stopped going. I was trying to encourgage her to go back. IDK if she will or not.



Danemora -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (7/31/2009 5:05:00 PM)

From what I can gather based on rather vague information (I do appreciate that you are wanting to protect her privacy), it almost sounds to me like she has this need to subconsciously sabotage things when they seem to be going well.  The part where you compared her behavior to a storm was rather telling.  While you want her to stop, she may very well honestly not be able to without the help of a professional to work through her own issues. 

You may find that as you work through your own issues, your patience and acceptance of her self-destructive behavior may wear very thin.  Its going to be at that point that you are going to have to unfortunately ask yourself the hard question...how much are you willing to sacrifice of your own emotional well-being to be the slave to your significant other's issues?



kuriouswitch -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (7/31/2009 5:08:14 PM)

I've been going through the same thing with my Master. I'm the one with the issues and a few weeks ago we had some things come out and I got scared when they were exposed, especially because I was afraid he would end things, or hate me for what I said and did or make fun of me for some of the things I finally told him. I've tried harder to make sure to tell him everything, to hide nothing and he's been checking "in" with me more often and forcing me to tell him what I'm really thinking and feeling.

It's going to take time and lots and lots and lots of patience. And maybe getting her to see a therapist if she can afford it, or talk to yours and see if there are some ways to redirect her line of thinking and making her aware that there are other options. And just let her know that she can tell you anything and it's not going to shock you.



flogger -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (7/31/2009 5:26:26 PM)

Thanks for letting me read this, but I don't know what to say, been there....done that.



lovingpet -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (7/31/2009 5:28:35 PM)

I'm sitting here trying to decide how much I should discuss here. I have kind of been through what I think you may be describing. I have had a lot dropped on me ever since this part of myself emerged about 3 years ago. I have a hard time facing up to a lot of things. I will openly admit to things in one arena, but vehemently deny or even lie about them in another. This isn't me trying to be dishonest, but trying to come to terms with myself. In a big, anonymous environment, like the forums, I can admit to a lot of things. There's no real consequences. When I am brought face to face with them by my partner, however, now those things can take on life and form and that scares the hell out of me sometimes. Do I trust him? Very much so. Does he trust me? Very much so. Did it still almost bring things to blows? Very much so.

What saved us then? I allowed him to know me, deeply and painfully know me. He is fully aware of what my internal workings are. He understands the why's behind my behavior. He knows when I am lying, denying, or avoiding usually before I do. He knows how to bring about internal peace for me and that leads to me being able to open up. He knows I really can't hide from him. Any games I play really are only with myself. I am doing my best to just cut it out, but about the time I think I've got the hang of it, I get hit with another big revelation that I can't handle and I slip again. It is a matter of having to question how well I really know myself and if the person that is being unveiled is a person I can accept. He knows all this. He took the time to KNOW me. I let him. We survive the storms because we have a good foundation.

True, this is probably the way I will always handle growth and discovery. If he can accept that and work within it happily, and I am working to do better at all times, then what does it really matter? It is a way of processing. If it is damaging to either of us, then it is time to find a new way to process. Building those new ways of responding will take time, but good things are worth the wait. He is worth the hard work to me and I am worth the patience to him and the relationship is worth struggling together when needed. At the end of it all, I curl up in his lap and tell him all the ugly truth about me and how dissonant I am within and he embraces me, as is, and loves me just the same as ever, maybe even more.

lovingpet



Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (8/3/2009 7:14:36 PM)

I want to thank everybody for not prying and respecting privacy.

I recieved a some touching emails on the other side from people that have gone through similar problems and their long term relationships are still very much going. Thank you.

In many regards, it's taken me a bit to fully wrap my mind around the full extent that things have been going on and to the levels. It's not easy having one's understanding messed with. Call it a transformation of understanding, which is or can be very much mentally/emotionally challenging.

There is much that can be said for some of the ways in which I handled things. I found myself questioning the rightness and wrongness of how I've reacted. It was like having my understanding of past events messed with, and that's not fun. However, very much needed because of the moments where I always felt like I was missing something more to what was going on.

Dare I admit to it, I've even kicked back and sort of went with the flow of a few things. Telling myself that sooner or later the truth or greater understanding will come out. There were times when I how to say this, allowed a littlle topping from the bottom to see where things were going. Other times when I had zero tolerence/patient for topping or control attempts. However, the control of outcomes is what it was all about.

I don't think anybody can honestly say they have never tried to control the outcome of things, to hide thier mistakes. Even more so when the truth is a fearful risk to a relationship that is greatly valued. Also, who has not played along at some point in time. Turned a blind eye and simply waited for the truth to reveal itself. We human being lie and we manipulate, just on various degrees.

So much can be said for the idealized perfection of D/s, truth and honestly. It's an idealized notion of perfection, reality has a way of screwing with it.

It's the true understanding of one another and our motivations involved that count a lot at times. Just because we are being lied to or decieved does not automatically mean it's because somebody is trying to use us in a bad way. Though we are tempted to think so at first glance. If somebody is fearful of something trashing a relationship, they are trying to do what they can to protect what they value. Just cause somebody is less than honest does not mean they have no regard for the relationship.

It comes down to a A or B sort of thing at the end of it all. The motivations are they with A. Good or B. Bad intentions. Can be a little confusing when you are on the recieving end. Because you sort of become the victim of deciet. Though at times deciet is what we need. All depends upon.

All of this is not some Black and White cut in stone matter. Sure, some people at the first sign of deception walk away from a relationship, find somebody else and walk away from that too. People jumping from relationship to relationship seeking a level of perfection that just does not exist in any human being.

I will tell you this, it causes a state of emotional instability for bit, without knowing the motivations or seeing them right away. Did somebody decieve to protect the relationship or decieve to use/abuse you. The thoughts of being used by somebody else just don't sit well with me, tends to make me hurt and angry. The thoughts of being decieved to protect the relationship tends to make me hurt and sad. So in the process, moods range from being hurt, to sadness and to anger. Natural emotional cycles.

I admit it, I tend to be very logical and emotional at the same time, and I'm a deep thinker.

I've gone through some new first time experiences that I've never gone through before, and it's been challenging. It's even unsettled or exposed a few of my own issues.

It's taken a bit, but things have started to actually make logical sense to me lately and my emotions have leveled out. At the moment, I've come to some level of new understanding and insight. Not only about her, our relationship but myself as well.

In many regards, I've come to know her more thah I ever did before. That is a good thing. I've come to a higher understanding how and why things have been happening the way that they have. So those are the good things.



LostPhoenix -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (8/3/2009 8:16:24 PM)

Sounds like a pretty bumpy road you're on. Upgrade the shocks, let a little air out of the tires and hang on. [&:]
Seriously though, I wish you both the best of luck.



DesFIP -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (8/4/2009 1:29:10 AM)

I didn't lie to him but I sure didn't tell him a lot of stuff.

Intellectually I knew he was safe to talk to, but emotionally I was expecting him to go ballistic like the ex. You get yelled at enough for mentioning major stuff like you left the milk out and it went off, and then get a 20 minute screamfest about how fucking stupid you are, you will lie in the future.

What helped the most is for him to pull me into his arms, tell me he wasn't the ex, and hold me until I talked to him. He wouldn't let me go until I talked. Being held was the key. Because being held, hugged, cuddled is safe, so talking in that position is safe. I just needed a lot of physical contact.



Prinsexx -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (8/4/2009 2:44:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I didn't lie to him but I sure didn't tell him a lot of stuff.

Intellectually I knew he was safe to talk to, but emotionally I was expecting him to go ballistic like the ex. You get yelled at enough for mentioning major stuff like you left the milk out and it went off, and then get a 20 minute screamfest about how fucking stupid you are, you will lie in the future.

What helped the most is for him to pull me into his arms, tell me he wasn't the ex, and hold me until I talked to him. He wouldn't let me go until I talked. Being held was the key. Because being held, hugged, cuddled is safe, so talking in that position is safe. I just needed a lot of physical contact.

I rejoined this thread. Although I am talking myself out of business here: what's all the insistence about going to a therapist? A therapist is only as goos as the amount of money you pay them Skeptical? I'm about to leave the industry because of it.
Why I habve slotted this in here is is response to what you have said dear DesFIP. And that is that issues (patterns of them as well) can be fixed, can be broken, in the arms of a relationship, n the intimacy of the dynamic itself. Not necessarily in the emotional sterility of a therapist's office.
The problem with the concept of transference is that it is a fallacy.
Transference?? What transference? That's just a way of saying as soon as the reall issue is bought into the therapeutic relationship therapy is over and recovery has begun.
Trust issues an not simple 'internal'. We don't go around saying swine flu is an issue. It's environemental. So too are most of the 'issues' whereby relationships nreakdown. It's to do with the nature of the relationship itself.
As you pointed out quite simply above: hold me.
That's the very problem with the modality of on line. There is no intimacy of touch.
No wonder it's often like being pushed off an emotional cliff without a safety harness.
It's raining here and early so sorry about the mixed metaphores and the ranble.
Too much falling off cliffs recently.



CaringandReal -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (8/4/2009 5:55:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

So much can be said for the idealized perfection of D/s, truth and honestly. It's an idealized notion of perfection, reality has a way of screwing with it.



Absolutely. And it can be worse for someone reading messageboards or talking to others in munches or chatrooms (well maybe not chatrooms, that environment tends to bring out the inner child in us all!) because people with a stake in such social communties (regulars) tend to put their best faces foward and do not air their dirtry laundry. My relationship is so perfect, I feel such devotion, I serve him/take care of her so well, etc. etc. A percentage of that is intentional dishonesty but most of it isn't: it's just people remembering/focusing on the good aspects of a relationship rather than the bad parts. Kind of a wish-fullfilment. It's also partially "keeping up with the Joneses" (wanting to appear as cool as the next person) but not entirely. But it results in this unspoken conspiracy to never display that your relationship is less than perfect in public. That can do others, particularly newcomers, a big disservice because it gives them a very false impression of the reality of power relationships, which always include bad spots as well as the good, sometimes significant bad spots. The core reality of this sort of relationship, for me, has always been that the good parts are so very, very good that they make the bad times, no matter how bad, well worth weathering through.

I applaud your courage in coming out with as much of this as you have in public. I doubt many of us (including myself) would have had the guts to do something similar. It's quite...admirable.

Yes, I've experienced similar things. No, I'm not going to talk about them in public. I lack your courage. But here's a couple of things. People with "issues" sometimes feel a need to sabotauge or destroy something good that they have because they think that doing this is much better than having it snatched away from them. And they are absolutely convinced this second alternative is going to happen, it's just a matter of time. Some of the things you said about your situation and her behavior made me think your girl might be feeling something similar.

I expect you already do this, but the more reassurance you express, the more you can do to convince her that awful things aren't going to happen here, that the relationship isn't going to end or be permanently broken, no matter what she does, will help her. Submissives need reassurance that they are not stronger than you, especially the troubled ones. This is not enough to fix the problems, but it will help, especially initially. At some point, however, when she is ready, I think she needs to really understand how her behavior is hurting you. When people do this sort of thing, then tend to be all wrapped up in themselves, all absorbed, and they do not consider the effect their behavior is having upon others. Submissives are especially prone to this because they are so naturally narcissistic. Sometimes if a dominant is too loving and patient, too big and daddylike, it encourages those negative "thinking only of myself" behaviors rather than helping to fix them. And the submissive is worse off for it, because deep inside she's hating herself for being so awful. She just doesn't know how to stop.

At the second stage, when she's secure and strong enough to handle the idea that what she is doing is hurting you without also imagining this this means a dramatic disasterous end to the relationship, a therapist might be helpful, if the therapist is right for her. Therapists have tools at their disposal (primarily drugs but also techniques) that most non-therapists do not have access to. These drugs, for instance, while usually prescribed for depression, can help with a large host of other problems. Yes indeed, they are over-prescribed and often for conditions in which they are not the best choice. However, in some situations, and you've said leads me to believe yours might be one of them, they are quite useful. For example, if your sub is still menopasual, the emotion "enhancing" effects of a monthly cycle may be adding to the problem. SSRIs help some women with bad PMS: they take the edge off the intensity of the anger and frustration felt at those times. That's just one example. Sometimes such drugs add a level of increased calmness to a life that is otherwise distraught, and that sort of calm or peace is needed when doing painful self-analysis of the "I'm hurting someone else with this behavior. I don't want to keep doing this" variety. With emotions unchecked it's hard not to let that self-analysis turn into an orgy of guilt and despair, which does nothing to fix the problem.

She doesn't trust the replacement therapist? Don't make her go back to them, she'll never trust them. Start shopping--with her, if that seems appropriate--for a new one. She has to feel good about the person or it's destructive rather than helpful. There are a great many therapists out there. It may take some time, but you'll find one eventually that she likes and trusts. Making this into a game, a weekly shrink shopping trip, might even make it fun. :) Just treat her to a nice dinner out or something else she likes afterward! :)

I believe she's going to have to want to do something about her own behaviors, and be motivated to do so. This isn't something you can fix all on your own, but getting her to the point where she can look at all this clearly without a lot of horrible self-incrimination and fatalistic "this means the end" thinking may take a lot of time, and work on your part. Be prepared for a very long haul; with luck, it will turn out not to be so long. Once she reaches this point, however, where she both sees this behavior clearly (without any of the veils of self-accusation fuzzying the view) and wants to change it, you can probably step in and assist her by providing discipline that reinforces the new bahaviors (and discourages the old).

I'm very strongly in the "good love is hard to find" camp rather than the "walk at the first sniff of trouble" camp. I think that when you have something that's basically quite good but there are some tough problems, you wait it out, you stick with it, you do whatever you can to help the situation, because the alternative (not having this person in your life) is much worse. Unlike shopping for therapists, shopping for the love of your life is a very uncertain and daunting business with no guarantee of success. To throw something precious away when a little trouble (or even a lot of trouble) comes your way seems the height of foolishness to me. It'll be even more precious to you if you can weather through the difficulties without taking the easy way out.

PS: All the stuff I've said about therapists is from a layman's pespective. But I'm an experienced layman.



angelikaJ -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (8/4/2009 8:13:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4



Anyways, she stopped going because the therapist she was seeing left and the replacement she does not trust. So she stopped going. I was trying to encourgage her to go back. IDK if she will or not.


Would there be a way of her contacting the other therapist and asking them for a recommendation?



Acer49 -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (8/7/2009 7:09:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

I'm a little hesitant about making this post this morning. I've been refraining from posting much in the way of my personal life and my LD relationship.

There is a lot posted on the topic of "Trust" and how important it is to D/s relationships and BDSM activities. I believe this is a safe statement to make "nobody is 100% honest".

My relationship is like anybody else's, I'm involved with another human being. Actually a very wonder and awesome girl. Yet, she is human. When I first met her, she told me she had more issues than Playboy. This is one thing I took to heart and took seriously when she said it.

If LA was still around posting on the message boards, she would say "when somebody shows you who they are you can believe it". So yes, my little girl has some issues. I knew I was getting involved with somebody with a number of issues. I myself have my own sets of issues as well. Nobody is perfect.

Now, we have reached a critical point in things between us. One of her issues has been causing problems in our relationship. It's less than honest behaviors. However, it's not permanently damaged my trust in her. Each time something has happened, I've pushed for something called "the truth". She comes clean with me. In fact she has come clean with me about a few things I knew nothing about. Which actually gained my trust.

My trust is not destroyed in her like she feels it is this very moment even.

Things were going really great between the two of us, in fact a lot of trust had been regained along with a good feeling of security between us. Then the unthinkable happened. One of her issues took hold of her. She did something that was needless. She did something to try to make me LIKE her MORE, and it was driven by some deep hidden pain. A pain/harm that was done to her in a previous relationship. I am going to refrain from going into detail, if I did it would be a violation of her trust in me.

What she did, she feels greatly ashamed and deeply embarrassed about. However, she did come clean with me about the reasons she did what she did. If she had not, I would say trust would be permanently damaged.

Now, ironic as it is. I once made a similar mistake myself in the past. It had not intended to cause anybody any harm to anybody. This goes back years ago in my life. It was a hard lesson for me to face and own up to. However, I had to build and maintain a facade of lies to cover up other lies. It all started off with one lie. One lie that leads to another lie to cover up that lie. Soon a mole hill grows and then it becomes a hill and starts to turn into a big mountain.

Anyways, my little started doing this and had boxed herself in. Trying hard to not get busted. The last thing she wanted to do was expose the fact she had not been honest. She was afraid of it damaging trust between us and everything going down the toilet. Even more so considering a few things that happened in the past. This actually is quite sad.

I ended up having to confront her about it, because she had been careless about something, and it was in plain sight that she was not being honest. Difficult, because i saw the small mountain of facade she was trying to put on to cover her own ass.

She feels ashamed and embarrassed greatly. For me, I just want her to knock off these kinds of behaviors. I can understand why she has done the things she's done. In my book trust is not totally damaged. It's something that can be regained and rebuilt.

Ironic, in so many ways I trust her without question. I just want her to knock off doing the things that damage or make me question what is really going on.

Earlier this year, I decided to make the move and start seeing a therapist. Somebody to help me sort out some of my own issues. I've shared with him what's been going on between her and I. My therapist is not telling me to run either. My therapist thinks everything would be alright if she was to stop doing some of the needless things she does.

My girl is saying things to me now, such as once trust has been violated on these levels it can never be the same or regained. She honestly feels/thinks all is lost between us. She herself is telling me something that probably many people on this board would give out for advice.

For me, personally, I just want her to knock it off. That would be the end of the problem or issue between us.

The things she does are a bit like storms that come along and damage a house. The house starts to get repaired and just when everything is coming together. Another storm comes along and makes a mess. The repair process starts again. This last storm was pretty bad. The house is still standing though.

I'm afraid though that I may have pushed too hard in trying to make her face up to the things she's been doing. That this is why she is feeling everything is screwed. I have not been very much of coddling mood. Just want her to knock it the hell off.

Anyways, I'm certain her and I ain't the only ones that have been faced with this. I'm not certain why I'm posting this to the message board. As I said in my OP I'm a little hesitant about making this post. I'm not really certain what I'm looking for in the way of responses.



I may be off base here but from what you have said. She believes trust is absolute and that is what is required in a relationship
You feel that you can trust her up to a certain point and you are ok with that. How you deal with this is up to you



OsideGirl -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (8/7/2009 7:42:26 AM)

A few things:

She's been hurt in the past. So, now she's sabotaging the relationship to protect herself. She most likely has no idea why she's doing it. She's also gotten comfortable with being the "hurt one". She's clinging to the old pair of slippers because it's something she's used to.

Next, she needs to realize that she doesn't get to decide whether you trust her or not. That decision is entirely yours.

While therapy might help, it won't until she has the self realization of what she's doing and that she chooses to play the same role over and over. With self realization, just being with someone that won't allow her actions to kill the relationship may be the most effective thing. That doesn't mean that allowing her to get away with everything. It means confronting her in calm way and asking "Why would you do this?" and then talking it through.



MstrPBK -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (8/7/2009 8:02:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
A few things:

She's been hurt in the past. So, now she's sabotaging the relationship to protect herself. She most likely has no idea why she's doing it. She's also gotten comfortable with being the "hurt one". She's clinging to the old pair of slippers because it's something she's used to.

Next, she needs to realize that she doesn't get to decide whether you trust her or not. That decision is entirely yours.

While therapy might help, it won't until she has the self realization of what she's doing and that she chooses to play the same role over and over. With self realization, just being with someone that won't allow her actions to kill the relationship may be the most effective thing. That doesn't mean that allowing her to get away with everything. It means confronting her in calm way and asking "Why would you do this?" and then talking it through.


Sorry here I have to respond ...

if the person in question is "sabotaging the relationship" then at some point they also must have to be able to set when THEY also trust others. If they do not get to decide where that trust line is, then further damage to their reality will/may occur. Does this person REALIZE in what way they may be hurting the relationship and are they capable of understanding what is being called "damage to the relationship? ONCE and only once they fathom what is occurring around them (because of others or themselves) can one begin to understand how to begin the healing process. This by the way may also be as rough as the process by which they arrived to that point. Everyone connected to said person in question may need excessive amounts of patience to work this through.

MstrPBK
St. Paul, MN USA



HarderToBreathe2 -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (8/7/2009 8:51:49 AM)

quote:

What saved us then? I allowed him to know me, deeply and painfully know me. He is fully aware of what my internal workings are. He understands the why's behind my behavior. He knows when I am lying, denying, or avoiding usually before I do. He knows how to bring about internal peace for me and that leads to me being able to open up. He knows I really can't hide from him. Any games I play really are only with myself. I am doing my best to just cut it out, but about the time I think I've got the hang of it, I get hit with another big revelation that I can't handle and I slip again. It is a matter of having to question how well I really know myself and if the person that is being unveiled is a person I can accept. He knows all this. He took the time to KNOW me. I let him. We survive the storms because we have a good foundation.
quote:



Wow. What a truly wonderful man he sounds like, and how very brave you are to be open and real with him.  :)



NihilusZero -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (8/7/2009 9:09:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

then tell her that she HAS to stop or you are walking away. Period. End of story. Given how many times you say this has happened, this is the only course of action left to you.

Sorry...but there it is.

I'm going to have to second this.

Whatever means you've used to take care of this recurring issue, it has apparently enabled her continuing to do it. At some point you have to  plainly state to her that there is a threshold and make it very clear what that threshold is so that she'll know exactly when she would be crossing it.

Tighten the leash. You tell her to understand and act like you mean it as far as being willing to continue on with a willingness to trust her. If she is so wound into her self-pity about it that she is deciding for you if the trust is lost or not, there's no point in moving further. If she listens and acts according to the trust she should have that you are being honest, then you proceed with the previous threshold declaration.

Some people may be unsure about taking these steps because it can appear as a "threat of leaving"...as if there isn't always a point past which someone will no longer stay in every relationship. You are just making her aware of it in very specific terms. If, even after all this, the knowledge and fear of totally losing you is not enough motivation to curb her of her habits, you'll either have to wait until she's capable of fixing the problem on her own or move on.



HarderToBreathe2 -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (8/7/2009 9:17:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I didn't lie to him but I sure didn't tell him a lot of stuff.

Intellectually I knew he was safe to talk to, but emotionally I was expecting him to g

o ballistic like the ex. You get yelled at enough for mentioning major stuff like you left the milk out and it went off, and then get a 20 minute screamfest about how fucking stupid you are, you will lie in the future.

What helped the most is for him to pull me into his arms, tell me he wasn't the ex, and hold me until I talked to him. He wouldn't let me go until I talked. Being held was the key. Because being held, hugged, cuddled is safe, so talking in that position is safe. I just needed a lot of physical contact.


Sometimes that is just what we need, isn't it?  Someone who makes us feel safe and loved, and reassured that our "flaws" aren't going to make them pull away.

Every time I reveal the not-so-pretty side of myself, whether it be moodiness or insecurity or something else... and the guy reacts calmly and without judgement, and his actions show that he still wants to be here... this goes a long way towards building trust.  However, if he were to get angry, pull away, or belittle me, then I would have a damn hard time letting him in next time. 

quote:

Intellectually I knew he was safe to talk to, but emotionally I was expecting him to go ballistic like the ex. You get yelled at enough for mentioning major stuff like you left the milk out and it went off, and then get a 20 minute screamfest about how fucking stupid you are, you will lie in the future.


I feel you, Des.  What you describe is really a reaction not unlike Pavlov's dogs.  

To Whiplash -
Your girl sounds somewhat similar to me, possibly.  I never lie b/c I value honesty very highly, but I do other things to sabotage relationships, almost as if I can't help doing it.  If she is just scared and insecure and lies b/c she is afraid of your reaction due to her past experiences (like the example cited by Des above), then to me, this is very understandable and I think it is worth it for you to hang in there with her.  If she really loves you and wants to be with you, and you feel the same, I feel that your situation can be coped with, and maybe "cured" over some period of time.  It takes both of you wanting this.  However, if she's what you would call a compulsive liar (if there's a deep-seated need within her to lie often and to everyone, sometimes for no apparent reason), then I would be afraid that it is no so easily fixable.  Not sure if any of that helps, but those are the thoughts that came to me from reading your posting. 

Oh yeah, and big kudos to you for being patient, understanding, available, caring, calm, and mature in your dealings of this with her.  What a truly great guy you are!!!  She is very lucky.



HarderToBreathe2 -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (8/7/2009 9:23:01 AM)

quote:

As you pointed out quite simply above: hold me.
That's the very problem with the modality of on line. There is no intimacy of touch.
No wonder it's often like being pushed off an emotional cliff without a safety harness.


This is so so very true.







allthatjaz -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (8/7/2009 10:22:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

then tell her that she HAS to stop or you are walking away. Period. End of story. Given how many times you say this has happened, this is the only course of action left to you.

Sorry...but there it is.

I'm going to have to second this.

Whatever means you've used to take care of this recurring issue, it has apparently enabled her continuing to do it. At some point you have to  plainly state to her that there is a threshold and make it very clear what that threshold is so that she'll know exactly when she would be crossing it.

Tighten the leash. You tell her to understand and act like you mean it as far as being willing to continue on with a willingness to trust her. If she is so wound into her self-pity about it that she is deciding for you if the trust is lost or not, there's no point in moving further. If she listens and acts according to the trust she should have that you are being honest, then you proceed with the previous threshold declaration.

Some people may be unsure about taking these steps because it can appear as a "threat of leaving"...as if there isn't always a point past which someone will no longer stay in every relationship. You are just making her aware of it in very specific terms. If, even after all this, the knowledge and fear of totally losing you is not enough motivation to curb her of her habits, you'll either have to wait until she's capable of fixing the problem on her own or move on.


My experience has been somewhat different whilst at the same time similar. Different in that I never lied but the same in that I was trying subconsciously to destroy our relationship.
I was conditioned into believing all men are alike and that sooner or later it would all end in tears. I couldn't enjoy the good stuff because I was too occupied in waiting for the bad stuff to arrive.
During those bad moments and I will add that all of those bad moments were caused by my own insecurities, S never once threatened to leave me. He never once said 'get your act together or Im off'. If he had so much as uttered those words then I would of been running before he ever got the chance to cause me that pain and you know why? because thats the very thing I feared the most and my insecurities would of been confounded by those sort of threats.
Instead he sat and listened and encouraged me gently but firmly to open up and reveal every last jot of my inner most fears. He cuddled me, held me and reassured me that he was going nowhere. He told me about his own fears of losing me but more than anything else he made me believe in myself, made me like myself.
Sounds like an awful lot of hard work but he obviously decided it was worthwhile investment.



HarderToBreathe2 -> RE: Trust not the issue in stopping damaging behaviors (8/7/2009 10:44:56 AM)

quote:

My experience has been somewhat different whilst at the same time similar. Different in that I never lied but the same in that I was trying subconsciously to destroy our relationship.
I was conditioned into believing all men are alike and that sooner or later it would all end in tears. I couldn't enjoy the good stuff because I was too occupied in waiting for the bad stuff to arrive.
During those bad moments and I will add that all of those bad moments were caused by my own insecurities, S never once threatened to leave me. He never once said 'get your act together or Im off'. If he had so much as uttered those words then I would of been running before he ever got the chance to cause me that pain and you know why? because thats the very thing I feared the most and my insecurities would of been confounded by those sort of threats.
Instead he sat and listened and encouraged me gently but firmly to open up and reveal every last jot of my inner most fears. He cuddled me, held me and reassured me that he was going nowhere. He told me about his own fears of losing me but more than anything else he made me believe in myself, made me like myself.
Sounds like an awful lot of hard work but he obviously decided it was worthwhile investment.


This really hits home with me as well.  I, too, feel that all guys are the same, and that one way or another, things are going to end hurtfully and badly.  It sounds, though, like there are at least a FEW great guys out there, including yours. 

I have a question though -- you say he never threatened to end things -- did YOU ever threaten to end things?  I have a horrible habit of doing that, myself, because it seems like it will hurt less than if he is the one who chooses to leave.  If you did ever do this, what was his reaction?



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