RE: Define God (Full Version)

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toopolite -> RE: Define God (8/7/2009 3:56:22 PM)

Resonant event waves define energy state and 3d space size and location for the Universe.

However the manipulation of these event waves is what defines a God.

For example the creation of an event wave to say hi to the entire Universe is the domain of a God but then if a scientist can create the same event wave the question becomes does that scientist cease to be simply human?





Rule -> RE: Define God (8/7/2009 4:20:12 PM)

Even when you do not make sense, you do make sense. You are spiritually advanced, toopolite. Your two posts in this thread, though but a few lines, contribute significantly. I am impressed.




Esinn -> RE: Define God (8/7/2009 5:00:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Noting i his case Esin you would simply have provided evidece to back a bold assertion. It would bolster your credibility if you do so and damage it if you do not.


How about if I post poll results from 2 European polls and another from the states (2005 - 2007) to back a bold assertion?  How about if I post quotes from theists?  Would a you tube video make you happy?  How about a book or 2 with an entire chapter(well, I think it was a chapter) dedicated to the subject?  How about we quote mine from 1920 forward?

This is really what post #344 was asking.  It was anticipating a reply that such results are not definitive or some how flawed.  (Except not from you obviously) 
quote:

If I can what happens next?


The only thing which has changed within the last 50-100 years since the decline in religion has become absurdly obvious is industrialized nations have acquired more knowledge to address what was once the absolute facts of theism - there are polls to back up such bold assertions. No ancient religious texts have been found to cast doubt on theism, instead advances in general knowledge have.  This is also evident in nations which have not been privy to such advancements.
    -Although we are failing on a global scale our nation is becoming more educated.  Bold assertions by ancient religious text are simply not holding up like they once did.

I find it odd you are a person who plays the devil's advocate to argue that evidence is not necessary to support claims of theists.  Yet in this instance you want more evidence.

Standard Theist Model:  If evidence supports the claims good.  If evidence does not deny, deny, deny or demand more.  Or deny science & logic all together.




pyroaquatic -> RE: Define God (8/7/2009 5:30:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: toopolite

Resonant event waves define energy state and 3d space size and location for the Universe.

However the manipulation of these event waves is what defines a God.

For example the creation of an event wave to say hi to the entire Universe is the domain of a God but then if a scientist can create the same event wave the question becomes does that scientist cease to be simply human?




A scientist can say hi to the entire universe. It is the magnitude of said waves that allows us to hear the hi from everywhere. I believe I asked something of the similar nature but was ignored.

The scientist transcends his human status but includes it as well, as a cell transcends to a multi-cellular being but includes it's cellness.







Esinn -> RE: Define God (8/7/2009 5:40:09 PM)

quote:

Resonant event waves
quote:

ORIGINAL: toopolite
then if a scientist can create the same event wave the question becomes does that scientist cease to be simply human?


No, as there is no contradiction. 

There is however problems with suggesting  an intelligent and invisible uncreated supernatural thing, has been personally interacting & intervening at will for the last 5 million + years through, with its creation, through some sort of undetectable telepathy.  Well concerns begin here. . . A thing like this(god) as with any supernatural concept is beyond the knowledge of the frail human mind.  Suggesting it created everything(Event Wave) ex-nihlo, with intention and humans best interest in mind using unknown powers from an unknown location as described in most ancient text is where serious problems arise.
    --Addressing anticipated objections demythologization as it relates to the major 3 existing religions is a new phenomena.

The fact a human, advanced human culture or alien is able to create a universe(event wave) does not make it a god - why would you think that?  It makes it an advanced human or alien.




pyroaquatic -> RE: Define God (8/7/2009 5:51:51 PM)

Pissing in cold water makes it feel warm. Pissing in hot water makes it feel cold.

Everything is relative, Esinn.

Also, I see God everywhere. Definitely not invisible to me.




Rule -> RE: Define God (8/7/2009 5:51:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
Suggesting it created everything(Event Wave) ex-nihlo, with intention and humans best interest in mind using unknown powers from an unknown location as described in most ancient text is where serious problems arise.

Quite. May I suggest to leave those ancient texts out of your deliberations? That will remove the mayor source of confusion.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Define God (8/7/2009 6:02:40 PM)

If the "event wave" discussion harkens back to F.A. Wolf, I never found it at all satisfying, at least until Talbot tightened up "Dreaming Universe"'s final chapters in "Holographic Universe". If the "event wave" discussion is not referring to that, then Im not familiar with it....any references?

Since imo the quantum model will ultimately prove to be no more than a "metaphor" for the actual underying processes, to try and scale up quantum level ideas into the physical level is mental masturbation. It may feel good, but in the end it just winds up mucking up some perfectly good tissue.




cpK69 -> RE: Define God (8/7/2009 6:27:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

I am sorry it is a bore to you.



Psychic you are not.

Kim




Brain -> RE: Define God (8/7/2009 7:27:53 PM)

Strings to the Rescue
watch chapter 7 in
QuickTime
RealVideo


Now string theory—the idea that everything is made of tiny, vibrating strands of energy—holds out the hope of unifying the world of the very large and the world of the very small.
running time 7:58

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html




Brain -> RE: Define God (8/7/2009 7:38:04 PM)

Judge Judy said to the defendant, If it does not make sense it is a lie. God does not make sense, God is a big fat lie.




GotSteel -> RE: Define God (8/7/2009 8:34:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: whippedboy678

Great job taking out one line.



There's a whole lot more than one line, heck in the last post I gave you two.  The first one advocate murdering everyone in this thread who disagrees with you. I suppose it actually requires you to murder almost everyone on earth. The bible advocates a number of hate crimes, don't try and say it doesn't promote hate.

An example of the bible promoting bullshit....how about unicorns?

Job 39:9-12 (King James Version)

9Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?
10Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?
11Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him?
12Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?
 
Psalm 29:6 (King James Version)

He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn.
 
Isaiah 34:7 (King James Version)

And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
 


Flawed concepts and dumb ideas:  What about where Jesus advocates healing the sick through demon exorcism?
 

Violence, murder and immoral actions: There's the two quotes I've already given and a bunch more. I'll list a few.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (New International Version)

18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid. I suppose that one counts for fear mongering as well. Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT  Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.   There's another one demanding you kill everyone who disagrees with you in this thread. Exodus 22:17 NAB You should not let a sorceress live.  Leviticus 20:13 NAB If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. Deuteronomy  22:20-21 NAB But if this charge is true, and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house.  Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles,  and the predicted signs or miracles take place.  If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them.  The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul.  Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone.  Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him.  The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt.  Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you.   The bible condoning slavery: Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.   Is that enough to show that it's not just one passage? I really don't want to go back and find more and most people probably don't want to read a post like the above. My sub has been complaining that an addiction to lolcats has ruined our grammar and spelling but I really feel like reading that much of the bible has done far more damage to my intellect.  
quote:

ORIGINAL: whippedboy678
But thanks for making my point for me. In the first quote, worshipping other gods IS the sin. By doing so, one will suffer the consequences of THAT sin. Duh. Too bad you only took out one line of my post otherwise I would take the time to explain.


I read that and picked my passages to answer it. I didn't pick ones where someone commits a horrible act on another or where the god does something horrible, amoral, nonsensical and contradictory. I picked passages where the bible commands you the reader to murder people.


quote:

ORIGINAL: whippedboy678
But it appears you're not interested in that. And why should I have to murder you? I don't give a shit about this. Or you for that matter. Wouldn't dream of sharing what I think God is or is not. I'm not here for confession or to witness. See, I guess you assumed I was religious (or something.) When you assume, you make an ass out of you. And, in this case, not me.


I don't think for a moment that you believe the above quotes. I'm actually sure you don't, otherwise you'd be in jail. However, you as a reader of the bible (which you must be to have told us what the bible does not promote) have been told by the bible that you must kill me. Now what was it you were saying about assumptions [;)]




philosophy -> RE: Define God (8/7/2009 8:35:35 PM)

Define God?

Dog spelled by a dyslexic.




chiaThePet -> RE: Define God (8/7/2009 8:40:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Define God?

Dog spelled by a dyslexic.


Hmmm, man's best friend.

Imagine that.

chia* (the pet)




Rule -> RE: Define God (8/8/2009 3:52:15 AM)

Them is all quotes from the Old Testament, which is not Christian.




MasterHermes -> RE: Define God (8/8/2009 3:55:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

GOD:

So, as far as I can tell we have defined god as a concept which exists in the mind.  The fact science has not proven how the universe was created, despite multiple theories exist, is used as evidence that this thing exists external to the human mind and is responsible for the ex-nihlo creation of everything.  This internal concept can be changed with personal imagination and seems to change as often as necessary to satisfy emotional needs of the individual.  Often ones belief in this thing is based upon the circumstances of the moment, geographic location of birth or social setting.  The individual typically adopts and adapts their personal definition of god from either a single or multiple ancient religions.

I have also learned that although it might be acceptable for me to question and challenge core irrational beliefs of a person about: social status, racism, sexism, math or supernatural things it is unacceptable to question modern religious beliefs.  This is due to the fact that science has not removed the shroud of mystery from the question most major religions seem to hinge their validity upon.  This is the fact that science has not conclusively demonstrated how the universe started.  So, like it or not NAY nay nay my personal core belief is beyond reason, logic, evidence and ultimate understanding so I am allowed to have it.  After all it makes me feel nice and warm inside.

The end?



At the end believing what science says requires as much faith as religions. Our ideas on the beginning of the universe and the life constantly changing. The question of the origin of zero mass, infinite energy at point zero always remains. We invent other dimensions to borrow energy from them, and one still questions how those dimensions had energy at the first point. %90 of the required mass in the universe is still missing and we are forced to invent the dark matter for explaining it. We have a limited understanding of sub-atomic particles. The theories accepted on the creation of the universe and life are not more than best guesses. Nobody claims we have a full and clear understanding of the universe and its mechanism. We humans do not even fully understand our own bodies which is more observable than the universe itself. In most cases we say "we know this is how it works but we dont know why" when it comes to our own bodies. We consider ourselves highly intelligent, but the body, the organism, that makes us, Us is still not completely understood by our intelligent minds.

That means believing the explanations of the science on the beginning of the universe requires faith too. Its just at a different direction. And no matter how much the side we take make us feel better than the other, neither science nor religion can claim of knowing the definite answer.

Unfortunately this hurts egos so much, neither side can accept it. Thats why an atheist and a religious person are each others best friends. They need each other. Otherwise might remind neither of them is as significant as they may think they are.

Does anybody like this end?

Hermes






RCdc -> RE: Define God (8/8/2009 3:58:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Judge Judy said to the defendant, If it does not make sense it is a lie. God does not make sense, God is a big fat lie.


Good God.... ( no pun intended) do you not have an original thought in your brain?  Are you so brainwashed you can't speak for yourself? (puns intended)
 
the.dark.




RCdc -> RE: Define God (8/8/2009 3:59:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Define God?

Dog spelled by a dyslexic.


Hmmm, man's best friend.

Imagine that.

chia* (the pet)



Bud-doom-tish.
 
the.dark.




RCdc -> RE: Define God (8/8/2009 4:01:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Them is all quotes from the Old Testament, which is not Christian.


QFT
(.justdon'tforgebammit.)

the.dark.




NorthernGent -> RE: Define God (8/8/2009 4:05:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

God is a big fat lie.



A philoshophical position advocating some sort of creator can't really be a lie.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

God does not make sense



God certainly does make sense. The outcome is similar to politics - we create socially accepted norms and values in order to regulate our behaviour. I suppose the difference is that politics can be based on tangible human behaviour; whereas there is nothing tangible about a non-specific deity.




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