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Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/2/2009 10:00:38 PM   
FangsNfeet


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Status: offline 		Let's look back at Roman Politics. There where senators, congress, a house, a leader, and a whole lot of deals/favors made between politicians to gain an upper hand. It also used its military to spread accross the known world to occupy other nations and make pupet governements.

Why did the USA decide to have a similar political structure made that was based on one that fell apart from inner politics, over spending, and wanting to much control?

Sometimes, it feels like we (USA Citizens) just want to follow in the foot steps of Ancient Rome and re live its fate.



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RE: Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/2/2009 10:22:16 PM   
MarsBonfire


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Status: offline 		I think we'll end up more like Great Britan: diminished. Bush tried his hand at "empire building" and it's nearly destroyed us (it may yet!) But eventually we will become a non-player on the world stage. Hell, the only reason anyone listens to us now, or fears us, is because of our penchant for bombing the hell out of anyone who annoys us... (Or whom we can lie about convincingly, telling the people of the US [who should know better] that the target country is actually responsible for a crime against us.)  The US has proven (thanks to Bush-Cheany) that it can no longer be a trusted ally, and is fully capable of being just as brutish and barbaric as the lowest of bannana republics. 

It will take decades of consistent diplomacy to recover... (if indeed, we ever do)

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RE: Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/2/2009 10:27:33 PM   
subfever


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Status: offline 		Well how about that? Your thread has regressed into the left vs right paradigm in record time.

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RE: Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/2/2009 10:43:41 PM   
hlen5


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Status: offline 		To keep on topic....

I think there are plenty of parallels.  I think the US is in danger of falling apart when the heavy lifting is left to a select few.
   I don't know if today's younger generation can see past their self interest to work toward the greater good. Granted, it's been sliding in that direction for a generation or two, each a little more self-absorbed than the last.

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RE: Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/2/2009 11:36:05 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5
   I don't know if today's younger generation can see past their self interest to work toward the greater good. Granted, it's been sliding in that direction for a generation or two, each a little more self-absorbed than the last.

This has become tedious. Learn from history already. Young people are almost always less serious about things than their elders. You can go back at least 100 years in just the USA and find people complaining about the decadence of the young.

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RE: Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/2/2009 11:50:07 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

I think we'll end up more like Great Britan: diminished. Bush tried his hand at "empire building" and it's nearly destroyed us (it may yet!) But eventually we will become a non-player on the world stage. Hell, the only reason anyone listens to us now, or fears us, is because of our penchant for bombing the hell out of anyone who annoys us... (Or whom we can lie about convincingly, telling the people of the US [who should know better] that the target country is actually responsible for a crime against us.)  The US has proven (thanks to Bush-Cheany) that it can no longer be a trusted ally, and is fully capable of being just as brutish and barbaric as the lowest of bannana republics. 

It will take decades of consistent diplomacy to recover... (if indeed, we ever do)



Mars, I agree with you there but what is Obama going to do, try and get us involved in "Darfur's" problems? Cameroon? Somalia?
We're spending U.S. Taxpayer Dollars to keep Somalians alive right now in those rediculous "foreign aid" programs.
We need a "No Nation Building, No Foreign Aid" law! Fuck 'em al!

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RE: Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/3/2009 3:25:22 AM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

I think we'll end up more like Great Britan: diminished. Bush tried his hand at "empire building" and it's nearly destroyed us (it may yet!) But eventually we will become a non-player on the world stage. Hell, the only reason anyone listens to us now, or fears us, is because of our penchant for bombing the hell out of anyone who annoys us... (Or whom we can lie about convincingly, telling the people of the US [who should know better] that the target country is actually responsible for a crime against us.)  The US has proven (thanks to Bush-Cheany) that it can no longer be a trusted ally, and is fully capable of being just as brutish and barbaric as the lowest of bannana republics. 

It will take decades of consistent diplomacy to recover... (if indeed, we ever do)


Bullshit...As long as the nukes remain on the table, the U.S. will continue to be a world power. News flash, the world will never like us as long as we maintain our standard of living, which Obama is doing his best to destroy. As always it's a case of the have nots, wanting what the have's have. The U.S.'s biggest problem is the lefty Dem apologistas wanting to lower our standard of living, "to fit in with the rest of the world"....What a fucking joke.

< Message edited by subrob1967 -- 8/3/2009 3:26:10 AM >

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RE: Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/3/2009 3:54:50 AM   
Aneirin


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Status: offline 		It has been shown by history, the greatest civilisations rose to greatness and declined, perhaps rise and fall, like ebb and flow  is as nature intended.

But what has changed from the past is the great powers now have devastating weaponry, some say planet killers, in an unnatural bid  for a civilisation to maintain it's status in the face of natural decline, the great power, might in it's bid unleash the devastation of the world.

The British empire, just like the Romam empire just petered out over a span of years, as centuries pass once great empires, the lands that remain house a people with vague memories, snippets of information as what was there before, they just concern themselves with living their life, looking after themselves and their families, just look at former empires to see.


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RE: Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/3/2009 5:09:11 AM   
housesub4you


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Status: offline 		Every great power has fallen in the course of history.  It is how the world works, when you are on top, everyone works to bring you down.  It's the old "King of the Hill" game played out in real life.

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RE: Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/3/2009 6:01:49 AM   
GreedyTop


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Status: offline 		Personally, I think eventually it will.  Probably not our lifetimes, or even those of our great grand kids.

But societies rise and fall. 




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RE: Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/3/2009 8:07:13 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
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Status: offline 		What makes a country great and strong? I think it is local resources. We could, if we had to, survive on our own... We have coal, oil, food, iron, transportation, and industry. So if we manage not to break up in to small parts we will be a player on the world stage for as long as we are one nation.

Our greatest danger as a country is our political system... It breeds fanatics like some who have posted in this thread. I think we will fall from civil war long before we are ever conquered by a foreign nation.

Butch


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RE: Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/3/2009 8:57:40 AM   
slvemike4u


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RE: Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/3/2009 9:30:03 AM   
nelly33


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

To keep on topic....

I think there are plenty of parallels.  I think the US is in danger of falling apart when the heavy lifting is left to a select few.
 I don't know if today's younger generation can see past their self interest to work toward the greater good. Granted, it's been sliding in that direction for a generation or two, each a little more self-absorbed than the last.


If I am understanding your post correctly, it is actually against currently accepted international policy to look at the greater good.  Soverignty is recognized one of the most important pillars in international politics.  The worldly "greater good" cannot always be adhered to if diplomacy with other nations and the UN is to be sustained.

I also agree with a few people in this thread saying that societies rise and fall.  No other society has ever been able to keep its stranglehold on a hegemonic position.  And I also agree that every generation disparages those younger than it.

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RE: Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/3/2009 9:35:39 AM   
Aylee


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Status: offline 		I can see where there are similarites between the USA and the Roman Republic of 1110/1120 BC, but not in the way that you are describing.

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RE: Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/3/2009 9:54:56 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Will USA fall like Rome

No. The USA has fallen because 'special interests' have replaced pragmatic governing. The profit motive and the reward of placating those 'special interests' in the USA far exceeds the corrupting influence of any Roman Emperor or the Roman Senate. As corrupt as the Senators of Rome were; none can compare to the current reward provided by being a US Congressman. It would be unthinkable for any wealthy Roman to do this:

quote:

The incumbent's advantage in the House is also lop-sided. Members of the House have raised approximately $1.2 million through the 3rd Quarter of this year, on average, while their opponents have raised an average of $286,000 -- a 4 to 1 edge for the seat-holder. Open-seat candidates have collected about $497,000. Candidates for Congress in 2008 have spent nearly $95 million from their own pockets to get elected.
Source: CONGRESSIONAL ELECTION INVESTMENT Who spends, on average $1.2 Million to get a job paying $174,000 guaranteed for two years? Granted it doesn't all come from the individual running for election. The quote doesn't split that $95 Million of out of pocket campaign funds. Who provides the rest?
quote:

The money paying for the election -- the home-stretch advertising, voter mobilization and other campaigning -- is coming largely from the same industries and interests that have funded past elections. Topping the Center's 2008 list of big donors are contributors who list their occupation as "retired" (accounting for at least $204.3 million), lawyers and law firms ($180.9 million), the securities/investment industry ($122.8 million), real estate ($105.5 million) and health professionals ($69.6 million). Business interests account for about 72 percent of all contributions, with ideological, labor and other interests making up the rest.


Senator McCain led the assault assuring that nobody gets into the Congress 'club' without being indentured to some special interest.

There was no Roman equivalent.

Rome did not fall as a result of its citizens desiring a benevolent 'nanny' to take care of them. There were a number of contributory factors, not the least being the end of a 'global warming' cycle which created a boom time of resources throughout Europe. When the extended growing seasons throughout the northern reaches of the Empire waned; the 'barbarians' looked south for their sustenance.

Why attack or destroy an empire when the empire is generating roads, facilitating commerce by protecting trade routes, and providing a path to success.

If they knew better than to use lead as a glazing component in the dinnerware; they may still be in power; however the 'Roman - Lead Paint' lobby funded many conservative Senators reelection campaign while the industry used their legal team to suppress internal research and memos.

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RE: Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/3/2009 9:57:45 AM   
pyroaquatic


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Joined: 12/4/2006
From: Pyroaquatica
Status: offline 		If there ever is a 'fall' I would be sure to survive. It surely will not be the end of the world. To fall would mean we were ever in control in the first place.


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RE: Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/3/2009 10:07:25 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Will USA fall like Rome

No. The USA has fallen because 'special interests' have replaced pragmatic governing. The profit motive and the reward of placating those 'special interests' in the USA far exceeds the corrupting influence of any Roman Emperor or the Roman Senate. As corrupt as the Senators of Rome were; none can compare to the current reward provided by being a US Congressman. It would be unthinkable for any wealthy Roman to do this:

quote:

The incumbent's advantage in the House is also lop-sided. Members of the House have raised approximately $1.2 million through the 3rd Quarter of this year, on average, while their opponents have raised an average of $286,000 -- a 4 to 1 edge for the seat-holder. Open-seat candidates have collected about $497,000. Candidates for Congress in 2008 have spent nearly $95 million from their own pockets to get elected.
Source: CONGRESSIONAL ELECTION INVESTMENT Who spends, on average $1.2 Million to get a job paying $174,000 guaranteed for two years? Granted it doesn't all come from the individual running for election. The quote doesn't split that $95 Million of out of pocket campaign funds. Who provides the rest?
quote:

The money paying for the election -- the home-stretch advertising, voter mobilization and other campaigning -- is coming largely from the same industries and interests that have funded past elections. Topping the Center's 2008 list of big donors are contributors who list their occupation as "retired" (accounting for at least $204.3 million), lawyers and law firms ($180.9 million), the securities/investment industry ($122.8 million), real estate ($105.5 million) and health professionals ($69.6 million). Business interests account for about 72 percent of all contributions, with ideological, labor and other interests making up the rest.


Senator McCain led the assault assuring that nobody gets into the Congress 'club' without being indentured to some special interest.

There was no Roman equivalent.

Rome did not fall as a result of its citizens desiring a benevolent 'nanny' to take care of them. There were a number of contributory factors, not the least being the end of a 'global warming' cycle which created a boom time of resources throughout Europe. When the extended growing seasons throughout the northern reaches of the Empire waned; the 'barbarians' looked south for their sustenance.

Why attack or destroy an empire when the empire is generating roads, facilitating commerce by protecting trade routes, and providing a path to success.

If they knew better than to use lead as a glazing component in the dinnerware; they may still be in power; however the 'Roman - Lead Paint' lobby funded many conservative Senators reelection campaign while the industry used their legal team to suppress internal research and memos.
As usual you once again start from a basic premise,that being your own personal one great truth....and proceed to fashion a post supporting the one great truth...ie: rewarding failure,nanny state .
What is truly remarkable is there doesn't seem to be a subject ,topic whatever....that you can not tie into "the one great truth".

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RE: Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/3/2009 10:10:08 AM   
Lockit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Are the barbarians at the gates?


Nope... but they were voted in and put in charge of all of us.

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RE: Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/3/2009 10:34:47 AM   
antipode


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quote:

Let's look back at Roman Politics.


Rome built an empire by conquering and taking over increasingly remote territories and tribal areas, and imposing its rule, much like the Dutch, the British, the Portuguese, the Spaniards, the Germans, the Russians and the Chinese did. The United States never attempted anything comparable to the old and ancient empires, but instead built an economic sphere of influence, paying its way. Even those countries it conquered and occupied at the end of WWII were never made vassal states, or U.S. territories. They are all independent and thriving democracies today.

Excepting Russia and China, all of those empires have disintegrated, the usual pattern being that once the vassals have learned to emulate the masters, they kick them out, as indeed the fledgling United States did with the British, and in many cases the inmates then take over the asylum. Russia is close to complete dismantling, China is in the early throes.

So I doubt the United States is in any danger of "falling". All that is required for the United States to remain important in the world is for it to acknowledge and act upon an understanding that its economical importance has been surpassed by both the European Union and the People's Republic, the first because it now has a significantly larger population than the US, and the latter because it has a much larger capital reserve, and is developing an affluence that will soon rival that of the United States. A recent headline in the New York Times had it that "the United States is negotiating with its banker", the banker being China - once the general American population begins to accept this is not a clever headline, but reality, we should be fine for a long while. Americans have become complacent in that they have gotten used to affluence and endless resources - the competition, Europe and China, are able to achieve results with increased efficiency, fewer resources and more innovation, and I for one doubt that we have any realistic chance of catching up, in that respect.

Almost fifteen years ago I boarded a shuttle aircraft from Singapore to Jakarta, Indonesia - a shuttle that left every hour. It wasn't one of the little Airbuses or Boeings that we use as shuttles, it was a full size 747, and it was packed. This was at a time when Indonesians still needed a travel permit to leave the country. I warned my American bosses then we were beginning to miss the boat, and was completely ignored, of course, there wasn't any way this could be an indication of anything. Today, Indonesians can travel freely, and that trend has spread into China. Traffic on just that route is more than five times what it was fifteen years ago, today.

Just some thoughts..

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RE: Will USA fall like Rome? - 8/3/2009 10:37:13 AM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		many countries may have "falling" problems
Warning: Oil supplies are running out fast - The Independent
The world is heading for a catastrophic energy crunch that could cripple a global economic recovery because most of the major oil fields in the world have passed their peak production, a leading energy economist has warned.

Higher oil prices brought on by a rapid increase in demand and a stagnation, or even decline, in supply could blow any recovery off course, said Dr Fatih Birol, the chief economist at the respected International Energy Agency (IEA) in Paris, which is charged with the task of assessing future energy supplies by OECD countries.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/warning-oil-supplies-are-running-out-fast-1766585.html

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