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for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/4/2009 10:45:05 PM

Jadiken

Posts: 60
Joined: 7/4/2009
Status: offline

God I am so new to this I feel like I could ask a million little questions... I have recently entered a relationship with my Master, who is a control freak and a sadist and on the extreme side... I guess what I want to ask is what makes you Dom/mes so extreme and seperate you from the "normal" Dom/mes. Also do you have any extreme rules, or guidelines that you have your sub/slave follow? Guess I am trying to maybe figure out more about him and what might make him tick through other people... even though that wouldnt really work... but it might give me some insight...?

Thanks,
Jade

Post #: 1

RE: for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/4/2009 11:55:14 PM

LillyoftheVally

Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline

Firstly welcome

Secondly I am not sure control freak is the best term to use

Third what you consider extreme many may consider a walk in the park

Also there is no such thing as a 'normal' dominant just as there is no such thing as a normal person

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to Jadiken)

Post #: 2

RE: for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/5/2009 5:15:20 AM

aldompdx

Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline

In my experience, the majority of control extremists (masters) suffer from narcissistic personality disorder.

Normality is established on a gaussian curve. There are people who fall within normal or standard deviation on such a curve. Therefore, there is such a thing as a "normal person." Likewise, there also exist people with disorders.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 3

RE: for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/5/2009 5:48:42 AM

CaringandReal

Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline

Lillyof, If "control freak" is the term these men use to describe themselves on the personal boards (and, in my experience, it is) then it is an entirely appropriate one to use here given the context of her question. One's emotional associations to a phrase shouldn't influence truthful reporting of the things people actually do, should it?

Jadiken, there aren't many people who will openly admit to extremism on this message board, even though such extremism is rampant in the personal ads. From what I've observed, the ones that do try to talk about such interests openly frequently get set upon like a rabbit among a pack of hungry dogs....and last just about that long. (The ones who don't are often those clever/manipulative enough to do a lot of prepatory asskissing before they start revealing their...quirks.) Based on this, I'm not sure you're writing to the right audience here. There are message boards on other sites where the culture is different: extremism is celebrated, and I would trust such people to have a slightly more informed and perhaps level opinion of this particular subject because they are exposed to it far more than in a social group that discourages such behavior--and even talking about such behavior.

I'm not honestly sure what you are asking here. People are what they are. Other people either accept them or they don't. The so-called "elected" separation of extremists is often actually the violent rejection they've experienced at the hands of...normals or people who prefer to conform to groups, whom the extremists make uncomfortable. Norms will claim the extremists are doing all the separating becuase they (the norms) want to keep this little myth they have going about their personal openmindedness intact. What can the extremists do in the face of strong bias and rejection? Slink away and live in shame in a cave or take pride in their extermism? What would you do when faced with negative, rejective herd behavior?

All I can offer is that if you're trying to study something in an objective manner you can get a very skewed and false impression of it by studying only in relation to something else. Think of those silly "gentlemen anthropologists" from the 19th century. They were not able to study tribal cultures objectively because they were constantly comparing them to their own so-called "civillzed modern" ones. Everything the tribe did was seen as silly, quaint, weird, extreme, childish, primitive, and indicative of lower intellectual and moral achievement or capacity, and so they saw only the surface of things and completely misunderstood what they saw. We like to believe that we're a lot more modern and objective then those top-hatted jungle excursionists were, but are we? I do wonder.

If you truly want to understand a living phenomenon, group, or person but without resorting to the cold deadening methods of science, I think your best bet is to immerse yourself into it/them until you almost become them and can experience the world, truely, through their eyes and hearts, with their perspectives, biases, passions, dislikes, all the rest. The sea is vast and bountiful...and quite beautiful. Dive deep and explore. :)

If, on the other hand, what you want is simply affirmation of your own prejudices and belief in thier weirdness and "not-us-ness," ...well... I believe you've come to the right place. Enjoy your stay. :/

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 4

RE: for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/5/2009 7:26:00 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx

In my experience, the majority of control extremists (masters) suffer from narcissistic personality disorder.

Normality is established on a gaussian curve. There are people who fall within normal or standard deviation on such a curve. Therefore, there is such a thing as a "normal person." Likewise, there also exist people with disorders.

First off, it has been my experience that there are as many female control extremists (Mistresses as there are male ones. However these observations are only as accurate as each one of us have the time and patience to study a group of people.

Secondly, establishing normality one needs to either take into account all sub-culture groups and ethnic groups and their traditional practices or take the majority of non sub-culture folk in one country to attempt to establish something which may be referred to as "Normal" in a rather vague manner. With a possible majority of Western Civilization being Christian in some form or another the Christian values and biases will come into play which works against non Christian groups. However if when establishing normality in the BDSM practitioners, one will, I believe get a different reading.

As has already been stated, what one person may see as extreme is standard fare for another. In a number of cases this may be solely due to experience so that the greater experience one gains from observation, interaction with other BDSMers and by practical experience, the threshold for referring to something as extreme will be raised. JUust my view, no more, no less.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to aldompdx)

Post #: 5

RE: for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/5/2009 7:31:55 AM

Jadiken

Posts: 60
Joined: 7/4/2009
Status: offline

Lily, thank you, and yes he does consider Himself a control freak, it is the only reason I would use that term, also with the extreme part of it. I would not use terms to describe Him this early in things unless He used them Himself. And i know there is no such thing as a normal Dominant, which is why i put the term in quotes, so it could be used loosely...

aldompdx, I never thought of narcissisium, I am going to have to look into that and see what I can find out...

Caring, Thank you, sometimes, I am not sure what I am asking either, I guess I just seek information and knowledge anywhere and everywhere I can find it, I feel the need to absorb every little bit I can... I am trying to immerse myself into everything and just soak it all in. I'd like to think that I dont have any prejudices, that I have a very open mind and people are who they are, but maybe I do, I dunno, sometimes I question even myself.... thank you so much for the input though, I think once things get moving more in the direction I am hoping for I will be able to learn more about him and what makes him tick....
Jade

(in reply to CaringandReal)

Post #: 6

RE: for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/5/2009 8:26:28 AM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal
Jadiken, there aren't many people who will openly admit to extremism on this message board, even though such extremism is rampant in the personal ads. From what I've observed, the ones that do try to talk about such interests openly frequently get set upon like a rabbit among a pack of hungry dogs....and last just about that long.

Unfortunately, I agree with this. One of my favorite posters took a long break from here because she admitted that as part of an erotic spiritual bonding ritual with her partner, she had part of her finger consensually amputated. People went apeshit for a dozen or more pages. And, if anyone has "kinky relationship credentials," she does. Most of the people laying into her were far less capable of building loving relationships than she is.

That said, Jadiken, I don't know if what you consider extreme is what I would consider extreme. I've beaten a woman with a baseball bat. She brought it herself, and surprised me when she pulled it out of her gym bag. And yet, I wasn't controlling what she wore, what she ate, or whether she looked me in the eye. Were we extreme, or just posers?

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to CaringandReal)

Post #: 7

RE: for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/5/2009 9:43:46 AM

SteelofUtah

Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline

Like with anything that you may find in this lifestyle there are degrees of interest and fasination with the Extreme. I know some people for whom light spanking is the great kink of the universe. I know others who have performed mild surgerys on their partner and that was just a Tuesday to them.

Control is this odd little creature because it can be exacted in so many different ways, to me control is knowing that when I want something done and I say so, I have girls who do all they can in their power to make it happen.

Some people control means they design actually HOW it happens

Some people control means When, Why, How, and Where it happens

Some people control means all the above while the girl is ball gagged and locked to a chain that is 2 feet too short to get to everything that needs to be got too.

Being a Control Freak, mind you I find the term derogatory, in my opinion is when someone is unable to come to TERMS with the control that is being given to them and are offten looking for ways to increase the amount of control (Read Micromanagement) that they exude over someone else.

Me, I am all for control as it is part of order and I am a fan of order, I like knowing that things have a place and that the structure of those things place brings order. If there was such thing as an Order Freak I would be okay with that term. I like knowing that there is a process to find a solution to ANYTHING. (And there usually is)

As for Normal...... define Abnormal, then tell me how many people you know who would classify that way then tell me if the majority of people you know are Abnormal how can a Minortity be normal, by the nature of the concept of normal the Majority share becomes normal, that being said being abnormal IS being normal.

Normal is an argument in semantics.

Steel

_____________________________

Just Steel
Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 8

RE: for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/5/2009 9:51:36 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

Red said:
That said, Jadiken, I don't know if what you consider extreme is what I would consider extreme. I've beaten a woman with a baseball bat. She brought it herself, and surprised me when she pulled it out of her gym bag. And yet, I wasn't controlling what she wore, what she ate, or whether she looked me in the eye. Were we extreme, or just posers?

I think that sums this up for me too. In some ways, I control Carol in ways that tend to squick out other people. In other ways, I don't control her at all. I control the things which seem important to me at the moment and ignore the rest. Who's to say whether some or all of that is "extreme"? Neither Carol nor I find it particularly extreme... now.

I associate the phrase "control freak" not with someone who is exercizing appropriate control over some situation or even someone who just happens to like being in control. I associate this phrase with someone who needs to be in control -- so much so that it causes them to do counter-productive things.... typically trying to control people or events in ways which nobody wants them to. In short, the phrase itself means "too much of a good thing" in my head so I'd not likely use it about myself.

Personally, I don't identify with "control" at all really. I believe I "influence" Carol.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 9

RE: for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/5/2009 10:14:43 AM

allthatjaz

Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

Lillyof, If "control freak" is the term these men use to describe themselves on the personal boards (and, in my experience, it is) then it is an entirely appropriate one to use here given the context of her question. One's emotional associations to a phrase shouldn't influence truthful reporting of the things people actually do, should it?

Jadiken, there aren't many people who will openly admit to extremism on this message board, even though such extremism is rampant in the personal ads. From what I've observed, the ones that do try to talk about such interests openly frequently get set upon like a rabbit among a pack of hungry dogs....and last just about that long. (The ones who don't are often those clever/manipulative enough to do a lot of prepatory asskissing before they start revealing their...quirks.) Based on this, I'm not sure you're writing to the right audience here. There are message boards on other sites where the culture is different: extremism is celebrated, and I would trust such people to have a slightly more informed and perhaps level opinion of this particular subject because they are exposed to it far more than in a social group that discourages such behavior--and even talking about such behavior.

I'm not honestly sure what you are asking here. People are what they are. Other people either accept them or they don't. The so-called "elected" separation of extremists is often actually the violent rejection they've experienced at the hands of...normals or people who prefer to conform to groups, whom the extremists make uncomfortable. Norms will claim the extremists are doing all the separating becuase they (the norms) want to keep this little myth they have going about their personal openmindedness intact. What can the extremists do in the face of strong bias and rejection? Slink away and live in shame in a cave or take pride in their extermism? What would you do when faced with negative, rejective herd behavior?

All I can offer is that if you're trying to study something in an objective manner you can get a very skewed and false impression of it by studying only in relation to something else. Think of those silly "gentlemen anthropologists" from the 19th century. They were not able to study tribal cultures objectively because they were constantly comparing them to their own so-called "civillzed modern" ones. Everything the tribe did was seen as silly, quaint, weird, extreme, childish, primitive, and indicative of lower intellectual and moral achievement or capacity, and so they saw only the surface of things and completely misunderstood what they saw. We like to believe that we're a lot more modern and objective then those top-hatted jungle excursionists were, but are we? I do wonder.

If you truly want to understand a living phenomenon, group, or person but without resorting to the cold deadening methods of science, I think your best bet is to immerse yourself into it/them until you almost become them and can experience the world, truely, through their eyes and hearts, with their perspectives, biases, passions, dislikes, all the rest. The sea is vast and bountiful...and quite beautiful. Dive deep and explore. :)

If, on the other hand, what you want is simply affirmation of your own prejudices and belief in thier weirdness and "not-us-ness," ...well... I believe you've come to the right place. Enjoy your stay. :/

This has to be the most honest thing I have read on here in a long time.

I use other message boards as well as this one and I read and write things on those sites that I wouldn't dare write on here because the moral police would be jumping down my throat.
Extreme is very individual (as has already been said). I know my Man is possibly too extreme for most but for me He is perfect.
When I Dominate someone then, just like him, I am at my happiest when I am playing with an extreme masochist but then my extreme may not be someone elses.

You are very new to this and the thought of pain is very different to the feel of pain but your not going to know if its for you until you try it. If its right for you then nobody should be telling you otherwise.

_____________________________

S&M (Steve and Maria) persona libre de convencionalismos

Fan of edgeplay.co.uk

(in reply to CaringandReal)

Post #: 10

RE: for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/5/2009 10:16:09 AM

Jadiken

Posts: 60
Joined: 7/4/2009
Status: offline

ok, so obvoulsy, extreme should not be a word I use... In the process of writing it was the only word that I could come up with at the moment... I understand that there are varying degrees of what people find extreme.
I understand that people dont like the term control freak, and that it could essentially be a bad term, however, when you are trying to describe yourself to someone in the vanilla world that doesnt know you, but you want to make sure they have some kind of understanding about you, control freak is the best to use for lack of a better term, I agree, I like the term Order Freak, and I may just start using that, but the term control freak is used so freely out there that I didnt think it would have such negative conentations here...
And yes I know normal wasnt the right term to use... but again, with the lack of better terms, which is why i put it in quotes and tried to use it as loosely as possible... But at the same time, you may change the name of something but does that actually change what it really is? Words are just that, we use what we have in our vocabulary to best describe what we are trying to get across, 15 other people may have a better word to describe what you are trying to, but if you dont know those words or cant think of them in the heat of the moment then you come across looking naive...

I feel I have totally worded my question wrong now... Can I get a clean slate and start all this over again?

Jade

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 11

RE: for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/5/2009 10:20:00 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

I feel I have totally worded my question wrong now... Can I get a clean slate and start all this over again?

I certainly hope so... There have been some questions I've asked incorrectly 4 or 5 times before I figured out what I was really wanting to know and how to communicate that.

So yeah, we'll give you a mulligan on this one :)

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Jadiken)

Post #: 12

RE: for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/5/2009 12:02:35 PM

Jadiken

Posts: 60
Joined: 7/4/2009
Status: offline

Thanks Leader... No more posting at strange hours of the night for me... I obviously dont think straight... maybe after some more thought I can actually figure out what I want to figure out... Who ever thought asking questions would be so hard...

Jade

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 13

RE: for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/5/2009 12:29:14 PM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jadiken
Who ever thought asking questions would be so hard...

Believe it or not, in a very real sense, I ask questions for a living. It's very difficult -- at least for me -- to come up with words that make vague, bizarre, out-there ideas suddenly clear to a broad group of people who can then do quality research into those ideas. So don't sweat it about the question thing. I face your "problem" multiple times a day.

Ironically, it's possible CaringandReal was thinking partly of me when she talked about this message board not embracing extremism, because on a previous thread, I said D/s relationships were the same as vanilla relationships in a certain way, and she disagreed. But the bottom line for me is this: as long as you have something that is healthy and helping you grow as a person, then go for it.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to Jadiken)

Post #: 14

RE: for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/5/2009 12:45:46 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jadiken
Thanks Leader... No more posting at strange hours of the night for me... I obviously dont think straight... maybe after some more thought I can actually figure out what I want to figure out... Who ever thought asking questions would be so hard...

Jade

I agree with Red... I certainly think asking the really interesting questions is really hard. I mean, by definition, the more I need the answer the more lost I am which means the less clear I am on the whole thing... which complicates asking the question. Heh, if I know enough to frame the qeustion perfectly, then I probably already know 3/4 of the answer too.

Me personally, I see nothing wrong with going back to the well a few times to reframe a question or drill down into specifics... you ask... you learn a little more... then you ask again... then you learn a little more...

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Jadiken)

Post #: 15

RE: for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/5/2009 12:52:45 PM

SirKen963

Posts: 8
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline

Hi jadiken

i have read your post, and want to ask you. Why you do not just ask him ? Talk to him ? tell him of your fears?    Being new to the lifestyle is a great time. So much to explorer, and all the thing's you will do and will have done to you.

Now with that said it is also a time to take it slow. I do not like the term Control freak because we ( Dom) are in this cause we enjoy the control some like to control everything a sub/slave does . Other control what they want to control in there sub/slave .   Everyone has there own kink .. there own way of doing things and it's there job ( per say ) to explain this to you and help you understand.
I have always said the great thing about the lifestyle is you take from it what you want and leave the rest for someone esle. I enjoy flogger's,ropes, knives and alot more . What i do not enjoy is animals.blood,( kids of course)
doormates, control bathroom and eating. But this does not mean others that do are wrong or as you say control freak's ....its just what they enjoy or who they are.

To me from what i read of your post i take it your sacred and want to know what your getting yourself into before you start, and the only way to know this is by talking to this Dom and asking Questions.   I have always told my Sub/slave they can ask me anything so long as it is repectful. communcation and being honset with each other is the key to any relationship and with out it ....it is doom to fail or if you enjoy that and like being a doormate then by all means great good for you have fun and enjoy.
there is nothing wrong with how you want to be treated or how a Dom wants to treat you so long as you talk ..understand ..and agree to it.

No one on this site will let you get into his head and understand him .. he is the only one that can inform you of his wish's and the way he is ...BUT HIM.

Be safe and enjoy :)

< Message edited by SirKen963 -- 8/5/2009 12:55:32 PM >

(in reply to Jadiken)

Post #: 16

RE: for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/5/2009 1:08:17 PM

Jadiken

Posts: 60
Joined: 7/4/2009
Status: offline

SirKen, I have been told that questions are totally cool and all that jazz, (questioning authority, totally different) But I get really nervous and really shy around Him... I dont want to say something stupid or foolish. Plus I dont feel right asking Him some questions via the internet, I feel they are better suited for an in person discussion and right now with my new job and His going back to school our in person time is very limited so I guess I will have to be patient... I am a little scared, becasue I am, well intimidated by him in a way, maybe in aww of the dominance that just eminates off of Him... I find my self tongue tied when I want to ask Him a question... I have sooooo many things that just swarm around in my head but when it comes time to talk, it all just flies out the window... He is taking it slow for me, which is comforting, but at the same time sometimes i wish He would move a little faster... maybe i need to work on my patience...

Leader, you are spot on.... the easier the question the more likely you are to already know the answer... sometimes we are just looking for someone to voice what we already know so we dont have to take responsibility for said answer... I will think on it some tonight while working and see if I cant fine tune what i am looking for...

Everyone, you have all been very helpful with my first posting... hopefully from here on out i will be able to be a little better at picking my words more cautiously... apparently there are a lot of terms that people arent fond of... but thank you all for your input and hopefully ill be able to clear somethings in my own head....

Jade

(in reply to SirKen963)

Post #: 17

RE: for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/5/2009 2:00:08 PM

kiwisub12

Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline

as far as saying something stupid or foolish? - entering into a power exchange relationship is probably the one time where there is no such thing as a stupid or foolish question. You need to be clear as glass as to what you are agreeing to, and the way to that clarity is to ask about that which you are not sure.

Heck - when i met my Sir - he asked what my limits were - he had to explain the concept of limits - and even then, i didn't have an answer for him - i hadn't experienced any of the things he was talking about, and so couldn't give him what he was asking for.

When you are new, you aren't expected to know it all. If you didn't ask questions i would be concerned.

(in reply to Jadiken)

Post #: 18

RE: for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/5/2009 11:23:54 PM

JustStephen

Posts: 61
Joined: 4/15/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

This has to be the most honest thing I have read on here in a long time.

I use other message boards as well as this one and I read and write things on those sites that I wouldn't dare write on here because the moral police would be jumping down my throat.
Extreme is very individual (as has already been said). I know my Man is possibly too extreme for most but for me He is perfect.
When I Dominate someone then, just like him, I am at my happiest when I am playing with an extreme masochist but then my extreme may not be someone elses.

You are very new to this and the thought of pain is very different to the feel of pain but your not going to know if its for you until you try it. If its right for you then nobody should be telling you otherwise.

I was shocked when I read this. I thought I was a mild mannered sort of chap

(in reply to allthatjaz)

Post #: 19

RE: for the extreme, control freaks and sadists... - 8/6/2009 6:55:01 AM

aldompdx

Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline

I think that the terms "extreme" and "normal" were perfectly adequate to communicate the intent of the original post.

IronBear, in this I agree with your perspective from a certain point of view. There also exist certain thresholds which a society as a whole macroculture establishes to define abnormal extreme conduct. In western countries there are statutes and common law or roman law, depending on the jurisdiction. There is also DSM-IV and ICD-10, developed in consideration of many disparate groups. The original post addressed a relationship with a male master, to which I responded.

Here, the discussion is about extreme or abnormal behavior in Texas, U.S.A. I think the vast majority of participants here could easily draw some bright lines for that region which exclude necrophilia, beastiality, pedophilia, rape, homicide, etc... See also, Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003) which establishes what is normally acceptable conduct.

Sexual Sadism and Sadistic Personality Disorder in Sexual Homicide; ISSN: 0885-579X (2006); ABSTRACT:
Controversies exist about the diagnostic validity of sexual sadism and its relation to sadistic personality disorder in sex offenders. The aim of this study was to investigate which diagnostic, developmental, and criminal characteristics differentiate sexual sadistic from non-sadistic sexual homicide perpetrators. Psychiatric court reports on 166 men who had committed a sexual homicide were evaluated regarding psychiatric, sexual and criminal history. Sixty-one offenders (36.7%) with sexual sadism (SeSd) were compared with 105 (63.3%) offenders without this diagnosis (NSeSd). Besides the sexual sadistic symptoms, there were seven factors that discriminated best between the two groups (sexual masochism, sadistic personality disorder, isolation in childhood, multiple sexual homicide, previous rape, previous tendencies for similar behavior, and long duration of the homicidal act). Sexual sadism is connected with circumscribed other characteristics and has to be considered in risk assessment and treatment of sex offenders.

These are very serious issues. I contend that they cannot be dismissed under the guise of relative normalcy within a particular subculture. Jeffery Dahmer may have considered cannibalism perfectly "normal." Does his subculture of one make it normal and average? WAY too many people attempt to justify abusive behavior with the rationale that it is "normal," relative to their particular BDSM subculture.

The values of a subculture do not trump the values of its superculture. There is a big difference between revolution and evolution.

(in reply to JustStephen)

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