RE: The issue of firearms

RE: The issue of firearms (Full Version)

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VanIsleKnight -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/11/2009 8:22:46 PM)
You might not be able to, that's going to be 60 years from now. ;) As for the bad guys with guns thing... erm. I don't know actually. I'm sure that there are some who would have practical ideas that work.

BKSir -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/11/2009 8:40:02 PM)
Alas, I'm starting to doubt it. They thought so in the 80s, when the whole war on gangs/drugs/guns started. We've seen how well that hasn't worked out. But, I'm willing to consider any reasonable ideas a step in the right direction.

VanIsleKnight -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/11/2009 9:03:16 PM)
I think it is going to take a lot more then merely two decades though. I honestly don't know. Maybe look at places like the UK or like Canada or like wherever else that has a better handle on this sort of thing and look at what they do, what their environments are like, how they approach it as a culture. I'm fairly confident that if you can go from a nation where black slaves were accepted and seen as a status simple to a nation where a black man is the leader of the nation, you can probably do anything. A key thing I feel is to not give up hope. Woman's rights. Heck, becoming your own solidified United nation. That took a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of people, and millions of people who did not get to see their dream become a reality. You just have to keep on pressing for change.

BKSir -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/11/2009 9:13:06 PM)
I'm still waiting on seeing us become a solidified, united nation too. It's been about 225 years, and it's still a pretty ugly state of affairs here mostly.

Termyn8or -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/12/2009 12:29:21 AM)
Using FR Don't you all realize that this whole argument is pointless. Don't any of you understand what it means to be a part of the USA ? Don't you get it ? OK, for those who don't, I have rights enumerated in the Constitution of this land. I will not give any of them up, in fact I will die for them. They come to get my guns I will shoot them, or at least do my damndest to kill them. I know it is an automatic death sentence but that is the true spirit of the real Law of this land. As I sit here reading this monster thread, I see many agree with me about gun rights. People in other countries are irrelevant, even though it is cool to have their opinions on the table, the Law is still the Law here and that is how it is. That is how it was designed and if it doesn't stay that way I will consider my options, to emmigrate or die. We are meant to live by the sword and die by the sword, but now that means gun. So what. We must stand up for our rights every day or we will lose them gradually. I have my convictions, for example I don't go to doctors, people thought I was going to die, and threatened to forcefully take me to the hospital. Proof is in the fact that I would look my own Mother in the eye and say "If you do that I will blow your head off". Some things are a personal choice and a matter of freedom, real freedom. Even though I know alot of criminals, ex cons and such, even those of you with whom I disagree, I would save your life with my firearm if the moment was ripe. And that is part of my central point. I think for example that homosexuality is wrong, but if you are not asking me to do it you are not bothering me. In fact I have been propositioned twice and in both cases I refused, but we remained friends. No problem. I have the right to go Gay. I choose not to. You choose to, I will support that right with my life. Some people are afraid of guns, so be it, so it is up to us who can use a gun to help defend them. That is because when the cops are minute away, I might only be seconds away. Across the world it is seen, that when the Citizens are armed, there is a very low crime rate. Austrailia recently disarmed it's citizens and look what happened. Disarming the poplace is not a measure to curb crime anyway, it's intention is to make it safer for the politicians, because some of them know full well that they are the first who deserve to be shot. Plain and simple. The framer of our Constitution knew this, I kniow this, and if you don't, can I go golfing on Mars next week or is it going to rain ? Will it be that acid rain ? And what will be the methane concentration ? C'mon, you must know this because you certainly haven't been on this planet for about fifty years. I almost feel sorry for those on this planet who have been brainwashed into thinking it is a good thing for them to be denied a form of self defense. Read that last sentence again. And read again, I will DIE for my rights. And possibly your's. Will you do the same ? Would you do the same for me ? If not, it is fine with me if you move to England where they will give you free diapers when you get old. Don't forget to get that TV license either, they will hunt you down like a mad dog serial killer. Hey, what else you need a license for in a repressive society ? I am just wondering. can you just go to the bathroom or do you have to file a form with the clerk ? Oh, and crazy people, addicts and criminals with guns, just shoot them. Oh wait you can't. Menermind........... T

Starbuck09 -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/12/2009 6:51:20 AM)
Stop being an offensive fool termyna80r I have been brainwashed into nothing I disagree with you about wepons, strongly. I do not accuse you of being brainwashed because you support the right of anyone to own a firearm. Calling England a repressive society just makes you sound like a jingostic arse so stop it. You like your rights do you? You are speaking about the birthplace of modern democracy the magna carta was drawn up before America was even a concept. Have you ever been to England? Did you see innocent people gunned down in the street by crimina armed o the teeth? No you did bnot because a killing with a firearm is an incredibly rare occurance in Britan. You don't like my society fair enough stay the fuck away from it, I do and I am strong enough in my convictions that my society is just that I don't have to resort to claiming other societies are brainwashed becuase they differ.

Loki45 -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/12/2009 2:54:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 Stop being an offensive fool termyna80r I have been brainwashed into nothing I disagree with you about wepons, strongly. I do not accuse you of being brainwashed because you support the right of anyone to own a firearm. Calling England a repressive society just makes you sound like a jingostic arse so stop it. You like your rights do you? You are speaking about the birthplace of modern democracy the magna carta was drawn up before America was even a concept. Have you ever been to England? Did you see innocent people gunned down in the street by crimina armed o the teeth? No you did bnot because a killing with a firearm is an incredibly rare occurance in Britan. You don't like my society fair enough stay the fuck away from it, I do and I am strong enough in my convictions that my society is just that I don't have to resort to claiming other societies are brainwashed becuase they differ. You don't like him calling yours a repressive society. But what ELSE do you call a society that taxes you to watch TELEVISION? WHat else do you call a society that criminalizes a PELLET GUN. I happen to like the UK, but come on, let's be real. NO society is perfect, not even mine. I love the U.S., but honestly....the people here are fucked in the head.

Starbuck09 -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/12/2009 3:11:31 PM)
No I do not like it Loki. If your definition of a repressive society is one that taxes you to watch television then I am afraid our differences are too large to bridge Loki. We pay our liscence to have the B.B.C. an excellent impartial news organisation. I haver seen plenty of people cursing Fox news and C.S.N. for it's lack of objectivity. I am more than happy to pay my liscence for the service provided. As for the pellet gun we don't like firearms of any description it's that simple. I am not claiming my society is perfect ,as you say none are, but what it is not is repressive. What it is, in my opinion is excellent. I like the U.S. but I don't call it a repressive society for it's faults nor am do i label it's inhabitants brainwashed because their culture is different to mine.

Loki45 -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/12/2009 3:41:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 No I do not like it Loki. If your definition of a repressive society is one that taxes you to watch television then I am afraid our differences are too large to bridge Loki. We pay our liscence to have the B.B.C. an excellent impartial news organisation. I haver seen plenty of people cursing Fox news and C.S.N. for it's lack of objectivity. I am more than happy to pay my liscence for the service provided. As for the pellet gun we don't like firearms of any description it's that simple. I am not claiming my society is perfect ,as you say none are, but what it is not is repressive. What it is, in my opinion is excellent. I like the U.S. but I don't call it a repressive society for it's faults nor am do i label it's inhabitants brainwashed because their culture is different to mine. So your large tax for television is just for the news? I'd rather watch two news channels, each slanted the opposite direction and draw my own conclusions than to be taxed for the news. And from what I hear, "you" may not like firearms, but have heard many a Briton complain at the ludicrous nature of banning what is essentially a toy gun. I mean 6-year-olds can shoot a pelletgun if they've been shown how. Even the Olympics has firearms events.

Politesub53 -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/12/2009 3:42:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 You don't like him calling yours a repressive society. But what ELSE do you call a society that taxes you to watch TELEVISION? WHat else do you call a society that criminalizes a PELLET GUN. I happen to like the UK, but come on, let's be real. NO society is perfect, not even mine. I love the U.S., but honestly....the people here are fucked in the head. What you call a tax ( definition, a scary word to try and prove a point. ) is actually a TV License fee, if you dont want to watch tv you dont have to pay for it. Surely whats what you want isnt it, the right to choose. As for the money raised from the license, it has enabled the BBC to become the worlds largest broadcaster. It also allowed the UK to have a public TV service 30 years before the US, thats unless you count the university based educational broadcasts. You also get a service that isnt interupted by continuous adverts.

Starbuck09 -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/12/2009 3:50:16 PM)
Well good for you loki you would rather watch two biased channels wheras I am happy with impartial news. Again that does not make my society repressive because we have acess to ,media that does not have massive political bent on whatever it reports. I am at home with firearms we as a country dislike them intensely, it is the reason our police do noy have firearms while on patrol except in specialised circumstances. I being familiar with firearms think they are far too powerful for everybody to be given ready access to them. A six year old can indeed use a pellet gun as can someone using a replica to hold up a convenience store. We don't like guns Loki period. Our laws work for us and miraculously we live in a wonderful free society where we do not have criminal elemnts slaughhtering civilians with firearms. You disagree with that fair enough but you call it repressive be ready for an argument. I notice all your firearms didn't manage to stop Bush pushing through legislation that so many deemed unxconstitutional.

Tals -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/12/2009 3:54:36 PM)
First of all, our constitution does have the ability to "evolve". It's called amendments. And it is incredibly hard to pass one on purpose. But it can be done. The founding fathers put it in place that way on purpose. They knew times would change and that others (lord knows they did) may have differing ideas on how things could be run. But they made it so things couldn't be changed simply on the whims of those in charge at the time. Our freedoms are very nearly set in stone and can only be altered, added to, or removed by a very specific process. Now there's a fair amount of wiggle room within the framework, but the framework remains fast. Even if the modern administrations don't like to work within it. As for guns, I won't give up that right without one heck of a fight. I happen to live in a part of the country that still has plenty of wild life. If my dog is being attacked by a bear in the middle of the night (has happened) I will maintain the means to protect him. If I walk out my front door, and a large cat takes a swing at my head, I will maintain the means to protect myself. I've been caught and surrounded in the woods by coyotes before and thankfully had the means to defend myself. Now, I'm no sport hunter and detest hurting animals, but I will protect myself. All this talk about gangs with guns and all is important. However to claim there is "no need for x gun because it's too powerful" to me is just another way to make me less safe. After all, what kills a human may only serve to piss off an animal.

Loki45 -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/12/2009 3:59:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 I am at home with firearms we as a country dislike them intensely, Then why have I heard people from your country bitching about the ridiculous nature of the bans? It sounds like not "everyone" hates them. quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 Our laws work for us and miraculously we live in a wonderful free society where we do not have criminal elemnts slaughhtering civilians with firearms. Really? Your own BBC seems to think otherwise... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/7475443.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7480196.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2640817.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2642977.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2632163.stm Seems like the ban you guys have in place is doing WONDERS (for disarming law-abiding, innocent people and making them 'sitting ducks' for criminals) quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 I notice all your firearms didn't manage to stop Bush pushing through legislation that so many deemed unxconstitutional. That's because we don't use them to settle political debates. I can see (or rather I can't) how you would make the connection that because we have guns here, we'd use them in politics.

Starbuck09 -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/12/2009 4:06:21 PM)
The same reason that you have people in America that want stricter gun laws Loki tht's a hallmark of a free society that not everyone is forced to conform to the mainstream. The ban we have in place does indeed do wonders. Gun crime has risen in the last ten years. So what the bans have been in place far before that. Taking them away would make the problem worse not better. I'd point out that in Headington Oxford where I come from if there was a shooting here that would increase gun crime 100% Presumably in america by your logic very few civilians are killed or robbed by criminals with firearms as after all they are so well equipped to deal with the threat? You don't see the connection? But surely loki as you yourself have argued [erroneously in my opinion] that all one has to do is look at germantg to see how gradual changes lead to totalitarionism,. If Bush was pushing through measurews that were unconstitutional why did you not rise aginst him to protect the rights you are willing to kill for?

Loki45 -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/12/2009 4:12:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 The same reason that you have people in America that want stricter gun laws Loki tht's a hallmark of a free society that not everyone is forced to conform to the mainstream. The ban we have in place does indeed do wonders. Gun crime has risen in the last ten years. So what the bans have been in place far before that. Taking them away would make the problem worse not better. I'd point out that in Headington Oxford where I come from if there was a shooting here that would increase gun crime 100% Presumably in america by your logic very few civilians are killed or robbed by criminals with firearms as after all they are so well equipped to deal with the threat? This is where our communication problem lies. It's not so much that we have no gun-using criminals because we're all armed. It's that we have a CHOICE whether or not to be a sitting duck or not. Many choose that very option. Sometimes, they pay for it with their lives. Look at crime in Arizona. In Arizona, there's an "open carry" law. You need a license to carry a weapon concealed, but you do not need that license to walk around with that same gun on your hip in plain view of everyone. Go look at the stats of gun-carrying citizens in Arizona being robbed. It doesn't happen often, I assure you. A wise man once said "An armed society is a polite society." Those links I posted (those MANY links I posted) show that your bans don't work. Who has the guns in Britain? The criminals do. And why? Because they're already CRIMINALS. They don't care about the bans, the ban is just one more law they're breaking. You care about the ban, presumably, because you don't wish to break the laws. A criminal doesn't care. So tell me, what do you do when you find you've walked into an area and are now facing a street punk who's pointing a gun at you? Do you call the cops? Oh wait...the cops aren't armed. What would they do for you? I guess they can take statements later, ask a few questions while the coroners are bagging and tagging. So it looks like you're on your own, unarmed and starring at a punk aiming a gun at you. "Oops."

DomImus -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/12/2009 4:13:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or Disarming the poplace is not a measure to curb crime anyway, Gun control is never about guns and always about control.

Starbuck09 -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/12/2009 4:23:00 PM)
It ii not where our communcation problem lies Loki ke all things this problem is about moderation. How many crimes in /america each year are prevented by owning a firearm? How many are committed by criminals using firearms? In Britain the number of gun related crime is miniscule. The rise we have at the moment after years and tears of tight gun regulations is a problem that will not be sol,ved by increasin availabilty of firearms. look at how many police in britian are shot compared to america. I care about the bans as they are a way to restrict gun crime to extremel;y small levels. When we had the I.R.A.'s mainland campaign to deal with I would not have advocated giving civilians access to high level explosives to deal with the situation just becuase the criminals had access to it. If someone was to pull a gun out on me I would be in trouble the point is the occurence is so rare that whenever it happens in britan in is front page news. Likewise if someone detonates a nail bomb in my local pub I am shafted. I am more than happy however to trade off the extreme rarity of this occurence with increasing the liklihood of it happening exponentially with the caveat that possibly I could kill the person if I was put in the situation.

Loki45 -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/12/2009 4:28:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 It ii not where our communcation problem lies Loki ke all things this problem is about moderation. How many crimes in /america each year are prevented by owning a firearm? Lots, just look up the stats. We've had many of them right here in Texas. I've seen MANY reports on the news about a homeowner who killed would-be robbers, a man who stopped a robbery at a store, etc. quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 In Britain the number of gun related crime is miniscule. The rise we have at the moment after years and tears of tight gun regulations is a problem that will not be sol,ved by increasin availabilty of firearms. But it is rising. And this WITH the bans that have already been in place? Tell me, how can you get more strict than an out-right BAN? quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 look at how many police in britian are shot compared to america. Look at the sizes in population before you look at that stat. And as it was already reported.....your gun violence is increasing, not decreasing. Sooner or later, criminals will always find a way.

Politesub53 -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/12/2009 4:36:30 PM)
Loki, so how is the murder rate in the US almost 4 times higher than that of the UK, according to the 2006 figures ? http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=108&subid=900003&contentid=255032

Starbuck09 -> RE: The issue of firearms (8/12/2009 4:41:42 PM)
The size in the poulation is irrlevant in this case like. There have been to my knowledge seventy six police men killed in England... since 1913 a fair few killed by the I.R.A. Weave something like 55 million people living in england. Of those killed not all were by gunshot wounds. I don't know the exact number killed by firearms but as you can see the number is tiny. Yes gun crims has had a small upsurge in recent years for a number of reasons. Like I say the answer to quell it is not to make guns readily available to everyone Loki. I've asked for the stats as I don't know them loki. It would be nice to see a chart showing number of crimes commited verus number prevented with the use of firearms.

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