RE: Young submission and its consequences

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FullCircle -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 10:28:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prinsexx It's the same as saying: my chiild has a temperature without the use of a thermometer. Of course I know their basic nature's:not only am i their mother but they talk openly to me. Temperature is a physical condition, a psychological condition is not so easy to see externally. People often talk more openly with people they don't have any connection with, since it's not easy to create a non judgemental atmosphere if you have a vested interest in what is being said but since you understand them so well I don't understand what you are asking for here? People would be shocked that Max Mosley plays the part of a submissive for pleasure when he is such a dominant individual in the FIA?

JonnieBoy -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 10:38:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: scarlethiney Oh, come on Pirate. This is not about US vs UK. Lets not bring many or most into your disagreement with Angel. You're taking the piss now. NO ... it's about arguably disgustingly defamatory comments made in public. It's not a disagreement either, I have extended the opportunity for that to be cleared up. Where does this relate to US/UK stuff? Are you making an issue of that? Pirate

ModeratorSixteen -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 10:40:04 AM)
Enough please and stay on subject.

JonnieBoy -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 10:44:48 AM)
(Its your fucking report button that didn't work) The condoning of abuse IS on topic if you ask me ... which is what your site is condoning ME being accused of in the opinions of some. Pirate

BitaTruble -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 10:49:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy quote: ORIGINAL: scarlethiney Oh, come on Pirate. This is not about US vs UK. Lets not bring many or most into your disagreement with Angel. You're taking the piss now. NO ... it's about arguably disgustingly defamatory comments made in public. It's not a disagreement either, I have extended the opportunity for that to be cleared up. Where does this relate to US/UK stuff? Are you making an issue of that? Pirate Back-thread, JonnieBoy - Scarlet referenced: quote: Best check a few UK laws before pontificating, I think it's clear that you are passing judgment ... and basing that on us law for that matter. It really makes me laugh how so many US citizens EXPECT foreigners to play by their rules all the time, now THAT ... ... is ignorant. All you have to do is click the name at the bottom of the post and go backwards from there to see which post was referenced. Scarlet wasn't talking about an alleged phone call to a lawyer for advice, she was talking about the conversation you were having with barelyangel.

JonnieBoy -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 10:55:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble quote: ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy quote: ORIGINAL: scarlethiney Oh, come on Pirate. This is not about US vs UK. Lets not bring many or most into your disagreement with Angel. You're taking the piss now. NO ... it's about arguably disgustingly defamatory comments made in public. It's not a disagreement either, I have extended the opportunity for that to be cleared up. Where does this relate to US/UK stuff? Are you making an issue of that? Pirate Back-thread, JonnieBoy - Scarlet referenced: quote: Best check a few UK laws before pontificating, I think it's clear that you are passing judgment ... and basing that on us law for that matter. It really makes me laugh how so many US citizens EXPECT foreigners to play by their rules all the time, now THAT ... ... is ignorant. All you have to do is click the name at the bottom of the post and go backwards from there to see which post was referenced. Scarlet wasn't talking about an alleged phone call to a lawyer for advice, she was talking about the conversation you were having with barelyangel. OK, I will accept that ... my attention has been drawn to a particular aspect of the topic (to which similar legislation applies in both countries[;)]) and that is what I thought this was referencing. Pirate

frazzle -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 10:58:27 AM)
FR Having read the whole of this, i doubt anything, anyone says will make a scrap of difference. But what the heck, will add my 2p worth. As others have said, your daughter isnt a submissive, she's being abused, a difference the you cant see. If shes similar age to the abuser, she barely knows what she is, so how in gods name have you decided it for her. I know you read the boards and most of us here worked it out in later years, not as a young person, give the girl a chance. If shes a lot older than this abuser, im trying to work out what a supposed, too intelligent, to need a therapist,adult, is doing dating an abusive child. (Legal age for adult in this country is 18). Either way, as a responsible parent you should be stepping in, she's obviously incapable of making adult descisions. Having said that i dont think you are either, what self respecting parent speaks about their offspring in the manner you have, and then goes on to defend the abuser. whom you seem to think is a paragon of virtue, because he's now only beats up your daughter, not everyone else in sight. God help anyone who goes to you for therapy, especially with your attitude towards the subject. Even worse, do the parents of these young people who you say, see you as a house mother have any clue as to the obvious garbage you are teaching their children. I doubt it, because one of them would have called not only social services, but the police by now.

RCdc -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 11:05:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: frazzle As others have said, your daughter isnt a submissive, she's being abused, a difference the you cant see. I am going to refute this. I have not said anything of the sort. I haven't seen anyone on this thread suggest that either. I would suggest that ANYONE suggesting that Prins daughter is NOT (a) submissive, is just as'in error' as Prin suggesting that her reactions to her boyfriend are because she is submissive. Submission is not a reason, nor should be an excuse, for bad choices. But you nor anyone else knows what Prins daughter is except the daughter herself. the.dark.

LaTigresse -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 11:07:40 AM)
Exactly. She may very well be submissive, only she knows. But, as I said earlier, submission and abuse do no go hand in hand. Two entirely different issues really.

barelynangel -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 11:27:53 AM)
Since there is NO CLEAR indication that her daughter identifies AS A SUBMISSIVE in the context of this site then i stand by my statements said clearly she is NOT a submissive as defined on this site Submissive as a NOUN not a verb -- she may have a submissive NATURE or tendencies but that doesn't mean she is a bona fide woman saying I AM A SUBMISSIVE in the context that is used on this site. Hell what if she simply wants a vanilla Man to treat her right and make her happy while she makes him happy. To take away her right to CHOOSE to be A SUBMISSIVE, just because she has a submissive nature is wrong. A submissive nature does NOT make someone an actual submissive to someone else. I have yet to have an answer whether this kid is saying I am her DOM, MASTER TOP -- ANYTHING that indicates these two kids were simply involved in an experiement of D/s gone wrong. From what Prinnsex is saying and just remember A LOT has been said -- PRINNSEX is making the determination for her daughter -- IT SEEMS to me. I have not seen her say that her daughter has indicated SHE IS AN ACTUAL SUBMISSIVE TO A DOMINANT MALE who was beating her up. This isn't an experiment gone arry of two kids, this isn't a new submissive learning to be a submissive to someone who identifies as a dominant or a master, this is a kid who lost his cool with his girlfriend and decided it was more fun to drag her on the sidewalk instead of dealing with HIS issues. I don't think its wise to advocate being a submissive or a slave to someone is a concept of unawareness and unacknowledgment of same. As i said there has been A LOT of informatuon thrown around and some pretty not understandble posts by the OP, but i have yet to see it clearly stated that this girl is a self-proclaimed submissive and the kid beating her up is a self-proclaimed dom and they were experimenting with the relationship of D/s. If it was, i would appreciate a post number. Until this is clear -- it seems the OP is making the decision she is a submissive and her submission is what creates this relationship unknown to the daughter to somehow make this more acceptable in her mind what is happening to her daughter. You can't rationalize this abuse. If you attempt to rationalize it as being a submissive and she is just young in her submission does not support ANYTHING that this site is about, in my opinion. To me this site is about CONSCIOUS Decision. angel angel

RCdc -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 12:46:15 PM)
It would be more helpful and groovy if people didn't assume other people as either submissive or not submissive and offer advice according to whatever orientation they are second guessing at and instead just treat others as human beings for a change and THEN offer their thoughts - regardless of age or gender or job! But then we wouldn't get people projecting their own hate, fear, issues, age or orientations would we? the.dark.

stella41b -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 12:53:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Exactly. She may very well be submissive, only she knows. But, as I said earlier, submission and abuse do no go hand in hand. Two entirely different issues really. Agreed here but there's a significant number of people around here (I'm talking about the website in general and mainly on the other side) who are well past their teens and who also cannot see the difference between submission and abuse, and domination and abuse. [moving on to the general thread] I'm not saying Prin is without issues, but what I don't get is not just the invective and animosity but also the dragging up of the past and throwing it back in her face. Why the need for some to single her out? Prin was actually in contact with me when she found out about her daughter stranded in the early hours of the morning in a town some miles away. She reacted - there wasn't much time to stop and think and consider the best options - the situation demanded immediate action to get her daughter out of danger. Yes there were probably mistakes made and errors of judgment but the bottom line was that she was there for her daughter and she did what she could. Both Prin and her daughter are coping with the recent loss of Prin's abusive ex-husband and her daughter's father and since this time we have been in daily contact and often spend time talking on the phone. For the record my father, who was abusive to me, died in December 2006 and I'm still dealing with that. Only I'm not a teenager. I was subjected to the emotional blackmail, the beatings, the verbal abuse, and the constant putting down by dragging up the past and keeping track of (his view) of all my failings, mistakes and issues. He never looked at things objectively, never looked at the positive, always remembered and focussed on the negative. And that is what I have seen on this very thread from some directed at the OP Prin the hostility, anger, animosity, bitterness, the dragging up of the past. Or if you prefer verbal abuse. You can make your excuses and call it what you like, but I still call it abuse.

beargonewild -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 12:58:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel Since there is NO CLEAR indication that her daughter identifies AS A SUBMISSIVE in the context of this site then i stand by my statements said clearly she is NOT a submissive as defined on this site Submissive as a NOUN not a verb -- she may have a submissive NATURE or tendencies but that doesn't mean she is a bona fide woman saying I AM A SUBMISSIVE in the context that is used on this site. Hell what if she simply wants a vanilla Man to treat her right and make her happy while she makes him happy. To take away her right to CHOOSE to be A SUBMISSIVE, just because she has a submissive nature is wrong. A submissive nature does NOT make someone an actual submissive to someone else. I have yet to have an answer whether this kid is saying I am her DOM, MASTER TOP -- ANYTHING that indicates these two kids were simply involved in an experiement of D/s gone wrong. From what Prinnsex is saying and just remember A LOT has been said -- PRINNSEX is making the determination for her daughter -- IT SEEMS to me. I have not seen her say that her daughter has indicated SHE IS AN ACTUAL SUBMISSIVE TO A DOMINANT MALE who was beating her up. This isn't an experiment gone arry of two kids, this isn't a new submissive learning to be a submissive to someone who identifies as a dominant or a master, this is a kid who lost his cool with his girlfriend and decided it was more fun to drag her on the sidewalk instead of dealing with HIS issues. I don't think its wise to advocate being a submissive or a slave to someone is a concept of unawareness and unacknowledgment of same. As i said there has been A LOT of informatuon thrown around and some pretty not understandble posts by the OP, but i have yet to see it clearly stated that this girl is a self-proclaimed submissive and the kid beating her up is a self-proclaimed dom and they were experimenting with the relationship of D/s. If it was, i would appreciate a post number. Until this is clear -- it seems the OP is making the decision she is a submissive and her submission is what creates this relationship unknown to the daughter to somehow make this more acceptable in her mind what is happening to her daughter. You can't rationalize this abuse. If you attempt to rationalize it as being a submissive and she is just young in her submission does not support ANYTHING that this site is about, in my opinion. To me this site is about CONSCIOUS Decision. angel angel So from what all you are saying here is that Prin should not relate her assessment of her daughter...thus implying she doesn't know her daughter at all? I mean this is a mother who has raised her daughter since infancy and seems to me that Prin should have a bloody good idea what the personality traits/characteristics of her own offspring!

MoGa -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 12:59:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild quote: ORIGINAL: Wyzardsgirl Thank you for reinforcing what I said in an earlier post hours ago, SweetPoosy! The OP has no clear idea herself of what submission versus abuse is. I objected strongly earlier when the OP called her daughter a prick teasing slut. - try again....what the OP said was her daughters acts like a prick tease....big difference here She even insinuated that her daughter deserved being beat bloody and dragged around the pavement until her arms and elbows were bloody. - you should know by now that insinuations mean jack shit in reality. Then she posted that only one person was willing to help her with her (cough) dilemma. Seems that person was JonnieBoy who called her on the phone and reinforced the OP's delusions that her daughter was 'transitioning' into submission and it was just her bad luck to have a 16 year old boy beat the crap out of her. I'm doubting at this point the OP's claims to have any kind of legitimate license as a therapist. She clearly has no idea of what abuse is versus submission. I hesitated to return to this thread until I wound up with insomnia. This whole thread made my skin crawl and dammit, when I tried to sleep I kept rewinding this crap in my head. - after this judgmental shit, seems I have doubts about your validity as a human being with compassion and feelings. JMO, but any mother who would stand by while some 16 year old psycho would beat her own daughter to a bloody pulp and then drag her around the pavement until her skin was ripped and bleeding, is just one scary woman. - since when did the OP state she was standing by and and not doing a damn thing???? quote: I'm her mother. And I know her. She's a prick tease and provokes him. She uses her beauty and her submission to get what she wants and she thought she could manipulate him. There's a flip side to every coin. And the side of this that no one seems to want to address is that women abuse too. I'm not saying she deserved to get dragged along the pavement or beaten the way she did. But on the eve of going away in the army, having turned his life around the way he has, he didn't deserve some slut of a prick tease following him around the streets last night. I'm surprised I can see it so clearly from both sides. But I can. I have to disagree with you here bear. Prin DID say that her daughter was a prick tease. She also called her daughter "Some slut of a prick tease". Those are HER words. She didnt say her daughter was ACTING like one. As far as you go, Jonnie..I am surprised at your outrage regarding inflamatory remarks made against you, that you claim are unfounded. I can go back and copy and paste so many comments that you have made that were equally slanderous. Not on this thread, but on another where you have sat as judge and jury regarding someone who was not found guilty in a court of law, regarding the charges. You are one to talk. I have kept quiet out of my respect and adoration for your wife, but you have overstepped with your outrage over these so called slanderous comments made against you, when you are just as equally guilty of posting something just as slanderous about someone else. This entire thread has boiled my stomach. Prin, how can you sit on both sides of this issue? The boy is not YOUR son. How can you give him the same loyality as you supposedly give YOUR daughter. You act like his carreer in the armed services is more important to you, than to protect your daughter. SHE should come first. You are so worried about her abuser, that you have lost track of which person should be more important to you. This thread has nothing to do with "Young submission and it's consequences" and more to do with "Prinsexxx need validation and attention". Like some others have stated, if it were about the topic that you posted on the subject line, it would have been more generic and a question asked about youth and submission, not about your life, your daughter, your past, etc. I would like to start a thread about the real issue of young submission and it's consequences, since clearly, that is not the topic here.

JonnieBoy -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 1:02:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel Since there is NO CLEAR indication that her daughter identifies AS A SUBMISSIVE in the context of this site then i stand by my statements said clearly she is NOT a submissive as defined on this site Submissive as a NOUN not a verb -- she may have a submissive NATURE or tendencies but that doesn't mean she is a bona fide woman saying I AM A SUBMISSIVE in the context that is used on this site. Hell what if she simply wants a vanilla Man to treat her right and make her happy while she makes him happy. To take away her right to CHOOSE to be A SUBMISSIVE, just because she has a submissive nature is wrong. A submissive nature does NOT make someone an actual submissive to someone else. I have yet to have an answer whether this kid is saying I am her DOM, MASTER TOP -- ANYTHING that indicates these two kids were simply involved in an experiement of D/s gone wrong. From what Prinnsex is saying and just remember A LOT has been said -- PRINNSEX is making the determination for her daughter -- IT SEEMS to me. I have not seen her say that her daughter has indicated SHE IS AN ACTUAL SUBMISSIVE TO A DOMINANT MALE who was beating her up. This isn't an experiment gone arry of two kids, this isn't a new submissive learning to be a submissive to someone who identifies as a dominant or a master, this is a kid who lost his cool with his girlfriend and decided it was more fun to drag her on the sidewalk instead of dealing with HIS issues. I don't think its wise to advocate being a submissive or a slave to someone is a concept of unawareness and unacknowledgment of same. As i said there has been A LOT of informatuon thrown around and some pretty not understandble posts by the OP, but i have yet to see it clearly stated that this girl is a self-proclaimed submissive and the kid beating her up is a self-proclaimed dom and they were experimenting with the relationship of D/s. If it was, i would appreciate a post number. Until this is clear -- it seems the OP is making the decision she is a submissive and her submission is what creates this relationship unknown to the daughter to somehow make this more acceptable in her mind what is happening to her daughter. You can't rationalize this abuse. If you attempt to rationalize it as being a submissive and she is just young in her submission does not support ANYTHING that this site is about, in my opinion. To me this site is about CONSCIOUS Decision. angel angel Wow, I find myself surprisingly impressed by the thought that's gone into this post. You point out that without clarity, some issues remain unclear. If the young lady is a self professed submissive in the general terms usual on this site has NOT been posted and credit that you spot such a significant reason why there are such a variety of reactions (that hopefully wont lead us into dictionary style bdsm definitions of "submissive?) Pirate (ps, angel, re read earlier discussion ... I think your allegation of me being ignorant is flawed, your cm mail box is blocked or something, I am happy to discuss ... but it is off topic as far as I'm concerned)

RCdc -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 1:09:04 PM)
Stella Prin open herself to it by simply posting. Even I am sure she knows that. Does that make it fair? Not really. But it happens and I am pretty much 100% positive that Prin knew that there would be a degree of animosity to her post BECAUSE it's her and because of her openess about her vulnerability and her own poor decision making. Poor decision making that SHE herself as admitted to in the hope that someone might read it and go - "wow - that is where I am now and there are others like me! I am NOT alone- Thank fuck!" Prin responded in kind. It perpetuates and she'll be the first to admit that. I know you are her dearest friend and I also know just how much empathy you have for her - as well as others - that's just who you are and what makes you so rocking. But sometimes, empathy can cloud judgement. And gawd knows (as does she) that I adore Prin. But shes not being objective in this thread anymore than many others (self included because I have previous experience of being beaten at the age of 16) - but it's all cool - because she does move on and she does learn and she grows. That others don't or won't - is neither here nor there. the.dark.

JonnieBoy -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 1:11:57 PM)
You have cm mail

LaTigresse -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 1:13:46 PM)
Well, The Dark just wrote (and way better) what I wanted to. I was just struggling to formulate it properly. Seriously, I don't see Prin as being abused at all. That would be like calling a contestant in a pie throwing contest abused because they got hit with pies.

beargonewild -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 1:28:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MoGa I have to disagree with you here bear. Prin DID say that her daughter was a prick tease. She also called her daughter "Some slut of a prick tease". Those are HER words. She didnt say her daughter was ACTING like one. That was an oversight on my part MoGa, my apology to you. The point I had hoped to get across is most if not all parents will call their offspring an unflattering name when we had totally exasperated them. I still recall my parents calling me a "goddamn asshole" on a few occasions and "you stupid son of a bitch." What should be clarified is these names are thrown at us offspring during a moment of anger/frustration/disgust which is usually over a bad judgement on our part and we had refused to listen to what our parents are trying to get through our head.

rawkmehard -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 1:30:17 PM)
okay...this is such a fascinating thread, so i'm going to make a few observations. i figured out i had submissive tendencies when i was in my late 20's. however, before that, my first serious boyfriend (and of course, at the time, my only true destined love! haha) and i had a relationship that put me through emotional turmoil. no, he didn't beat me or whatever things were insinuated or stated in the original post...but that isn't the point. the point is that i was being abused in my relationship. and i believed that because i wanted to please this man-because he told me he loved me and i believed it-i should work through it with him. it didn't matter that other people thought i was unhealthy-they didn't know him like i did....blah blah blah. i believe now that i was in an abusive relationship because 1) i lacked self-esteem and 2) i had an over-developed and deep need to please other people because i hadn't worked through other associated issues in my life. i also believe now that the fact that some tiny part of me yearned for what i NOW (in a much healthier way!) consider submission, factored in to my decision to stay in the relationship as long as i did. i don't agree with you, Prin, about the derogatory comments you made about your daughter. i don't agree that it's ONLY her 'submissive nature' at work, assuming she even considers herself in that way. it is my opinion that when learning to be in a healthy relationship, if some tendencies towards submissive traits are coupled with a lack of self-esteem, a person might be more inclined to stay in an abusive relationship. i think it is easy to confuse some kink-related activities with abuse, ESPECIALLY in someone who does not have much relationship experience. when i was 19, 20-ish, and had that first serious boyfriend, i had no basis for comparison about relationships. perhaps that, coupled with what sounds like some less-than-ideal modeling with your daughter's father, is what is contributing to this hot mess of a situation.

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