RE: Young submission and its consequences

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Prinsexx -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 6:06:00 PM)
Just to clarify my position. Regarding my understanding of abuse. I was in an abusive relationship with my daughter’s father for twelve years. I fled five times to women’s Refuges taking the children with me. When I finally got him out I was two tears in group therapy and also in cognitive behavioral therapy. The children received counseling and social services support whilst I was also working as a psychotherapist myself. The house was flagged and I had a personal alarm system wired to the Police. The support system in place was exemplary. I was two years on i village Support for Abuse boards keeping abreast of literature. I worked with others who were victims of abuse particularly men whom at that time were often vilified by the system I have been sole provider for these two children by this man and an elder son. I am a therapist, writer and lecturer published under three names. I switched from lecturing in psychology to working in a Support for Learning department. I am a specialist at working with the 16 to 18 year old age range. I have recently put in place a web site for my place of work which is I believe is cutting edge. With regard to being a submissive. I say I am a submissive…noun. If asked for how long I say all my life. Being a submissive means that I submit to dominant males. My interpretation of ‘the lifestyle’ is that I am a submissive 24/7 since my lifestyle is seamless that is to say my bdsm is part of my life. I do not live a mundane existence. I am out as far as it is necessary to be out both to friends and colleagues and my young at home. My three young people do not turn an eye either to gay friends, or TG friends or TV friends who are frequent visitors to my house. My house is a sanctuary not only for my own but for any of their friends who stay here, eat here and sleep here. They are allowed to drink, take drugs (no hard drugs) and have sex here. That is because I have had experience of drinking, taking drugs and having sex and I would rather them do it here than feel they had to go elsewhere. They sit on my bed at night sometimes (friends of the kids as well) and talk and confide about sex, and unwanted pregnancies, over doses and falling in love. Also politics and the nature of god. I love their company, their music and the times they do the stuff they do. (Pierce each other. Because yes we have needles in the house and sterilsing materials. They are awesomely open. With regard to the prick teasing slut. I treat them pretty much the same in private as in public. I am aware of the research that evidences the fact that many parents are more abusive towards their children when they are in private. I am not abusive towards them in public. But equally I am not hypocritical either in public or here by trying to appearing sidderently to simply how I am. I said here in an earlier post: “ “Ok I'm her mother. And I know her. She's a prick tease and provokes him. She uses her beauty and her submission to get what she wants and she thought she could manipulate him. There's a flip side to every coin. And the side of this that no one seems to want to address is that women abuse too. I'm not saying she deserved to get dragged along the pavement or beaten the way she did. But on the eve of going away in the army, having turned his life around the way he has, he didn't deserve some slut of a prick tease following him around the streets last night. I'm surprised I can see it so clearly from both sides. But I can.” Did I say my daughter was a slut here? Did I say she was a prick tease? es. Do I abuse her? No. Was I the parent who abused her? No. With regard to parenting. I do not make exemptions just because those young people in my charge here are my genetic offspring. In other words I will not absolve them from guilt because they are genetically related to me. Nor will I reject someone just because they are not. The young man in question deserves the same treatment from me as he would get if he was my flesh and blood. The situation that occurred was unwitnessed. It would have destroyed his life IF he had been arrested which is doubtful given the streets that night and the state of play between young men of his age. So: with regard to my daughter being submissive AND young and grieving and having been a victim of domestic abuse. She needs to learn the consequences of her submissive attitude to men, To be able to draw a line between those acts of submission that get her healthy attention and those acts of submission that send out a message to men which is interpreted as ‘do anything to me’. Only she can do this. She needs also to grow up. Only she can do this. She needs to grieve her father because at this moment in time she is holding onto the fantasy of him as having been a good father. He was not. He was abusive to me and inappropriately intimate to her. He gave her no boundaries and courted and solicited intimacy from her which was not appropriate. She is a prick tease. She learned to do this to her father to try to stop the abuse happening to me. To appease him. To calm him down. I could do nothing to stop him having access despite all my efforts. She talks of missing her father[s touch and skin. There was no incest, But my daughter teases and then withholds sex. She may do this for many years to come. She fears sex. I can see how this has damaged her. His abuse towards me was made acceptable to her by him through his relationship with her. That forms a great deal of what attracts her to a man. She can’t let go of that attraction until the grief is past. That’s what I would write up if I were her therapist. (Wavering confidentiality?) I am not ger therapist. I am her mother. There are no doubts that this is the way she has her wires crossed, I have sorted out my crossed wires, Have learned to turn them towards creativity, helping others and being the best mother not only to her but to many others. And to stay open, admit frailty and ask for help. To fit the pieces of the puzzle together. To those who gave it: you know who you are and in friendship I will always be there for you. Dominants come and go (and went as it happened, because it was outside of the ‘parameters’ as soon as the family shit hit). But friends remain forever. I haven’t written this to defend my position or attack anyone else in the slightest.

BitaTruble -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 6:07:08 PM)
quote: except in self-defense Ah, and does any one of us, or even Prin know that it wasn't a case of self-defense? Maybe the daughter threw the first punch. Without hearing 'his' side, I wouldn't be prepared to make a judgement on it one way or the other. We have hearsay from a parent who only got one side of the story, so all those calls that he's a manipulative ass, throw him in jail etc are based on very little 'evidence' of actual wrong-doing. She got her elbows scraped but for all we know, he's sitting at home nursing the knife wounds she gave him. Prin said this - quote: And the side of this that no one seems to want to address is that women abuse too. Maybe Prin can come back with more information but for right now, I'm going with the benefit of the doubt. I'm just not prepared to toss away a 16 year old when there's still time for rehab that will work and certainly not if he was the one who was physically attacked first and it really was a case of self-defense. Prin mentioned something about drinking being involved though I don't recall in exactly what context, but that's a mitigating circumstance and if 'she' started it does anyone really want to have the guy locked up for defending himself?

littlewonder -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 6:17:15 PM)
Wow..just wow...there's no words to even express what I feel about about this whole situation and those involved. <shakes head> and nothing anyone says here is going to change the situation sadly.

Prinsexx -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 6:31:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble quote: except in self-defense Ah, and does any one of us, or even Prin know that it wasn't a case of self-defense? Maybe the daughter threw the first punch. Without hearing 'his' side, I wouldn't be prepared to make a judgement on it one way or the other. We have hearsay from a parent who only got one side of the story, so all those calls that he's a manipulative ass, throw him in jail etc are based on very little 'evidence' of actual wrong-doing. She got her elbows scraped but for all we know, he's sitting at home nursing the knife wounds she gave him. Prin said this - quote: And the side of this that no one seems to want to address is that women abuse too. Maybe Prin can come back with more information but for right now, I'm going with the benefit of the doubt. I'm just not prepared to toss away a 16 year old when there's still time for rehab that will work and certainly not if he was the one who was physically attacked first and it really was a case of self-defense. Prin mentioned something about drinking being involved though I don't recall in exactly what context, but that's a mitigating circumstance and if 'she' started it does anyone really want to have the guy locked up for defending himself? Bita first reference is specifically to male victims: http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/515420/ http://www.mincava.umn.edu/documents/nativeamerican/nativeamerican.html http://www.vaonline.org/dv.html

beargonewild -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 7:11:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel quote: Yet it still boils down to the fact Prin is the parent so it is logical and accurate to say that she will have a definite idea on the personality traits her own offspring has. Thus by her definition of traits of a submissive person, she is applying those definitions to similar traits she sees in her daughter. A person can be submissive nature and NEVER EVER even know about BDSM. And sure the heck never use being A SUBMISSIVE (noun) to make excuses as to why she lets some guy (who again we are waiting to see if the kid identifies as a DOM, MASTER, TOP what not) do what he did. I could care less what Prinnsex thinks of her daughter and her personality --- SHE CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT be looking at her daughter in BDSM identifications UNLESS the daughter actually identifies as same. If she doesn't then the OP is looking at her daughter out of context to what she actually is. And therefore, she may be seeing a submissive who is having growing pains into her being a submissive instead of an abused victim who needs help before she continues a cycle of abuse that may get her killed. If her daughter actually entered into an experiment of being a submissive to a dom -- okay i could see a discussion from that -- but that's not what i see -- i see a mom into BDSM who is looking at her daughter who isn't in a context she shouldn't be because it could give her blinders to a bigger issue. Prinnsex cannot make this decision for her daughter to rationalize what she is doing because what she her daughter is doing is too fold she could be spreading her submissive wings of BDSM or she could be simply an abused woman. Think of it in reverse -- say Prinnsex's daughter identified as a submissive but because Prinnsex didn't understand it she instead identified her daughter as a victim of abuse because she knows that instead of the concept of being a submissive. Its the same thing. Until SHE identifies as a submissive (noun) she is not one and should not be compared to the concept of BDSM submission. angel - I thank you for the lesson in english though it is not warranted. - as far as we know, Prin is not looking at her daughter as a submissive person, simply relating the traits which are have similarities when it comes to a few traits that are common with victims of abuse. This does not denote a direct link between physical abuse and BDSM. and more specifically regarding a person who identifies or believes they identify as a submissive person. - if it happens to be a case of Prin looking at her daughter out of context, then every single parent is bloody well guilty of looking at their offspring also, to do otherwise is to promote a blatant hypocrisy. You should know as well as I do that parents are not perfect. - I have read over and over all you are saying and granted I do not agree though that is moot point. Mind you; we who do identify as a submissive, it is done by how we individually define what being a submissive is. We do not have all the information and basically we learn as we grow. During this process, our concept of what submission is and what defines a submission person is screwy and convoluted, it's through the learning when we are about to redefine and accurately understand our nature as a submissive person: as it applies to our own person.

Prinsexx -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 7:13:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder Wow..just wow...there's no words to even express what I feel about about this whole situation and those involved. <shakes head> and nothing anyone says here is going to change the situation sadly. Unfortuneately the world doesn't change the direction of its spin just becase we shake our heads and pass judgemnt upon it.

JonnieBoy -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 7:26:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder and nothing anyone says here is going to change the situation sadly. That's ... pessimistic. Pirate

stella41b -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 7:28:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble quote: except in self-defense Ah, and does any one of us, or even Prin know that it wasn't a case of self-defense? Maybe the daughter threw the first punch. Without hearing 'his' side, I wouldn't be prepared to make a judgement on it one way or the other. Exactly. I know Prin personally, as I've said before she's got some issues, but not as many as some people here think because she is such a unique individual, and while she has many talents she is not all seeing and omnipresent and despite her Buddhism is still some way from attaining nirvana. She's human, fallible, prone to errors of judgment. I am too but my judgment on this thread was never really clouded - it was just biased. In her favour. But like Bita I refuse to draw any definite conclusion or offer any real opinion on her daughter, the boyfriend and what happened between them, because like Prin and everyone else I wasn't there, I didn't witness the relationship firsthand. But this much I can say and this much I'm prepared to share. At 14 I committed a burglary. I broke into a house and ransacked it, and cleared it of every single valuable possession. twice I entered that house armed with a pick axe handle. Had the occupant not been on holiday he might have been dead now. But then again, had the occupant not been a policeman and a member of the Burglary Squad I would have had a criminal record. At 15 I ran away from home, successfully. This was my final year in school (I left school at sixteen) but I spent my time sleeping around in London sometimes working, but I was a 'chicken', I was underage and going off and sleeping with men who picked me up at London's Kings Cross railway station just to have somewhere to stay. I lied about my age, sometimes I was 17, sometimes I was 19. i sucked cock, I took it up the back, I was also beaten, whipped, pissed on, and I spent a lot of time crossdressing. People automatically condemn paedophiles. I don't, and I don't because once I was 'the other side of the story'. I'm not justifying paedophilia in any way, but just indicating that just maybe there is another side. Fortunately I got caught, recognized and captured by an undercover drugs cop one night at Kings Cross station. I gave in, temporarily and in contrast to my previous three years of education - mainly playing truant, I applied myself studied hard and completed my basic education. I so wanted away from my parents. I left home at 16, from which time I have been living independently. You see at 16 you are an adult, that's what you think. But you're not. You're just a big kid. I don't care what anyone says, it's not a gender thing, nobody at 16 is an adult. But at 16 you genuinely believe you are an adult, and you want independence and the freedom to make your own decisions and your own mistakes. I might have been put right here had I have had a better relationship with my parents, but the truth is that neither they nor I gave a toss. So like a lot of teenagers who aren't given that freedom and independence from my parents I simply took it. Two weeks after my 16th birthday I was back in London on my own, with my father's consent under the guardianship of a family friend. I'm just kind of sitting here wondering just how many of you out there, including the parents among you, assuming I was 16 again, just how many of you would have passed judgment and written me off. Not a biggie, really, because an awful lot of people have passed judgment on me and many have written me off. And I have proved so many of those people wrong simply through becoming who I am today. Something to think about perhaps?

Kalista07 -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 7:33:28 PM)
i just have to say that some of You all on here have way more patience, tolerance, and acceptance than i can ever pretend to have... Perhaps i'm just particularly bitchy.....perhaps it's just been a stressful day at work and setting the stage to be a fucking hell of a week at work but damn....i seriously have an overwhelming desire to conduct copeus amounts of violence amongst this thread. Kali

barelynangel -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 7:39:53 PM)
To me Prinnsex laid out things pretty clear in the initial post -- no indication the girl assaulted the kid, no indication of she abused him -- she was very clear on what perspective she wanted people to see what happened from. After as many times as she posted -- i think if her daughter attacked the kid -- it would have come out or SHOULD have come out instead of bitching at everyone they don't know while still saying stuff. Sorry but to me that is simply integrity -- if you lay out a story and you don't give all the facts -- you don't blame the people who are taking your word as fact and giving opinions and say well you aren't being fair, you don't know me etc. IF this girl attacked him then disclosure should have been made just as it was when she said he dragged her along the ground. If an op determines to be biased in disclosure -- you can't blame the opinions of what has been disclosed simply because people aren't saying what you want them too. Sorry but you can't give part of the story and then blame the people for taking what you have said as fact and not disclosing the whole story. angel

Prinsexx -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 7:44:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder and nothing anyone says here is going to change the situation sadly. That's ... pessimistic. Pirate Yes but at least I am stll here even though it's after midnight) and I didn't change back into Cinderella.

Prinsexx -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 7:47:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel To me Prinnsex laid out things pretty clear in the initial post -- no indication the girl assaulted the kid, no indication of she abused him -- she was very clear on what perspective she wanted people to see what happened from. After as many times as she posted -- i think if her daughter attacked the kid -- it would have come out or SHOULD have come out instead of bitching at everyone they don't know while still saying stuff. Sorry but to me that is simply integrity -- if you lay out a story and you don't give all the facts -- you don't blame the people who are taking your word as fact and giving opinions and say well you aren't being fair, you don't know me etc. IF this girl attacked him then disclosure should have been made just as it was when she said he dragged her along the ground. If an op determines to be biased in disclosure -- you can't blame the opinions of what has been disclosed simply because people aren't saying what you want them too. Sorry but you can't give part of the story and then blame the people for taking what you have said as fact and not disclosing the whole story. angel BUT NO ONE KNEW ALL THE FACTS. And the ones passing judgement here were the ones who assumed they did. And the ones passing judgment on me were the ones who assumed they know me.

Prinsexx -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 7:58:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel quote: Yet it still boils down to the fact Prin is the parent so it is logical and accurate to say that she will have a definite idea on the personality traits her own offspring has. Thus by her definition of traits of a submissive person, she is applying those definitions to similar traits she sees in her daughter. A person can be submissive nature and NEVER EVER even know about BDSM. And sure the heck never use being A SUBMISSIVE (noun) to make excuses as to why she lets some guy (who again we are waiting to see if the kid identifies as a DOM, MASTER, TOP what not) do what he did. I could care less what Prinnsex thinks of her daughter and her personality --- SHE CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT be looking at her daughter in BDSM identifications UNLESS the daughter actually identifies as same. If she doesn't then the OP is looking at her daughter out of context to what she actually is. And therefore, she may be seeing a submissive who is having growing pains into her being a submissive instead of an abused victim who needs help before she continues a cycle of abuse that may get her killed. If her daughter actually entered into an experiment of being a submissive to a dom -- okay i could see a discussion from that -- but that's not what i see -- i see a mom into BDSM who is looking at her daughter who isn't in a context she shouldn't be because it could give her blinders to a bigger issue. Prinnsex cannot make this decision for her daughter to rationalize what she is doing because what she her daughter is doing is too fold she could be spreading her submissive wings of BDSM or she could be simply an abused woman. Think of it in reverse -- say Prinnsex's daughter identified as a submissive but because Prinnsex didn't understand it she instead identified her daughter as a victim of abuse because she knows that instead of the concept of being a submissive. Its the same thing. Until SHE identifies as a submissive (noun) she is not one and should not be compared to the concept of BDSM submission. angel - I thank you for the lesson in english though it is not warranted. - as far as we know, Prin is not looking at her daughter as a submissive person, simply relating the traits which are have similarities when it comes to a few traits that are common with victims of abuse. This does not denote a direct link between physical abuse and BDSM. and more specifically regarding a person who identifies or believes they identify as a submissive person. - if it happens to be a case of Prin looking at her daughter out of context, then every single parent is bloody well guilty of looking at their offspring also, to do otherwise is to promote a blatant hypocrisy. You should know as well as I do that parents are not perfect. - I have read over and over all you are saying and granted I do not agree though that is moot point. Mind you; we who do identify as a submissive, it is done by how we individually define what being a submissive is. We do not have all the information and basically we learn as we grow. During this process, our concept of what submission is and what defines a submission person is screwy and convoluted, it's through the learning when we are about to redefine and accurately understand our nature as a submissive person: as it applies to our own person. And it would be just as credible to say that we who do identify as submissives do so according to how oyr Masters define us as such. In the simple power structure of the family the children are defined as how their parents define them as such. Until the age when they are accorded that power status themselves. I therefore define my daughter as submissibe, based on my instinct as her mother. Until such time as she (or someone she transfers power to) defines her as otherwise. We've had a discussion this evening my daughter and I about the alternatives to handing over her power to this bloke who is about to join the army. She has said that his behaviour was so abhorrent that 'he's not even on her radar'. According to my terminology that means she's released herself.

barelynangel -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 7:59:39 PM)
Prinnsex you set out a story, if you didn't disclose ALL of the information you can't blame people from taking what you have given them and opining. sorry but you can't. YOU LAID OUT A STORY, you didn't say there was a possibility she attacked him, you didn't say anything -- you said HE dragged her across the ground, you fixed her blood and bruises etc. Now you want to say hey wait don't judge me -- sorry, if you lay out a biased version of a incident and you make the kid in question look to be an abuser -- people WILL react. You should and probably DO know this as a therapist, so don't play stupid okay. That's right == people DON'T know you, and they DON'T know what happened and so all they were able to go on WAS THE STORY YOU PROVIDED. You aren't the victim of people here Prinnsex, you are the instigator except it didn't go as planned. When you use PERSONAL information to try and start a discussion people are going to focus NOT on the subject but on the personal information -- again, you probably knowthis as a therapist. You hold back on facts and then try and change it -- it usually doesn't work because people will remember the INITIAL story. The problem is now you want to change how people are seeing everything -- you can't. Unfortunately lol believe me i wish this was an ability because i stick my foot in my mouth all the time. Someone once told me -- if you tell personal information in a story online expect people to JUDGE YOU -- not the story and subject of same. angel

Prinsexx -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 8:13:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stella41b So like a lot of teenagers who aren't given that freedom and independence from my parents I simply took it. Apologies if I have taken this out of context and altered your meaning in anyway. But for me as a parent this is a crucial factor. The point about last night is ITS CONSEQUENCES. What actually happened between my daughter and this young man would be important IF anyone could have established exactly what had happened. And I am not calling my daughter a liar. But one of the most conflicting issues in therapy is how do we (as practitoners) establish exactly what happened in a person's life. How does that person? Recall theory says one thing. Reconstructive theory says another. Flashbulb memory theory says another. And so on. This is why we have juries and expert witnesses (whoare called upon to assess wirness recollection). The worst consequences would have been: - that the boy was arrested, failed to get into the army, went back on the street and took it out on me or my daughter for grassing him up. - My daughter felt betrayed, no longer trusted this as a safe house and left. - I gelt remorse. changed my tune and hegged her to come vack. And so on. We all need space. But as you say quite clearly here Stella: since you weren't given space you simply took it. And all's well that end's well as the saying goes.

Prinsexx -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 8:18:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel Prinnsex you set out a story, if you didn't disclose ALL of the information you can't blame people from taking what you have given them and opining. sorry but you can't. YOU LAID OUT A STORY, you didn't say there was a possibility she attacked him, you didn't say anything -- you said HE dragged her across the ground, you fixed her blood and bruises etc. Now you want to say hey wait don't judge me -- sorry, if you lay out a biased version of a incident and you make the kid in question look to be an abuser -- people WILL react. You should and probably DO know this as a therapist, so don't play stupid okay. That's right == people DON'T know you, and they DON'T know what happened and so all they were able to go on WAS THE STORY YOU PROVIDED. You aren't the victim of people here Prinnsex, you are the instigator except it didn't go as planned. When you use PERSONAL information to try and start a discussion people are going to focus NOT on the subject but on the personal information -- again, you probably knowthis as a therapist. You hold back on facts and then try and change it -- it usually doesn't work because people will remember the INITIAL story. The problem is now you want to change how people are seeing everything -- you can't. Unfortunately lol believe me i wish this was an ability because i stick my foot in my mouth all the time. Someone once told me -- if you tell personal information in a story online expect people to JUDGE YOU -- not the story and subject of same. angel I'm just going to repeat this back to you: . You aren't the victim of people here Prinnsex, you are the instigator except it didn't go as planned And I'm simply going to ask you: do you think I would share a personal incident of this nature because I was planning something on a forum on collarme? What are you talking about woman?

JonnieBoy -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 8:19:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kalista07 i just have to say that some of You all on here have way more patience, tolerance, and acceptance than i can ever pretend to have... Perhaps i'm just particularly bitchy.....perhaps it's just been a stressful day at work and setting the stage to be a fucking hell of a week at work but damn....i seriously have an overwhelming desire to conduct copeus amounts of violence amongst this thread. Kali Patience, Tolerance, Acceptance !!!! SHUP ! (You'll blow my fuckin' cover [sm=evil.gif]) Pirate

barelynangel -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 8:25:13 PM)
Whatever your reason was for posting it Prinnsex -- it obviously did not turn out as you planned if many of your posts are an indication. Because you STARTED the thread and gave the story -- you are in fact the instigator of what occured. The stone in the pond so to speak -- ripples etc. You aren't a victim of what happened on this thread, whether you meant to or not -- you opened a can of worms with your initial story and the subsequent posts. Somehow i can't believe you didn't know the reactions wouldn't be what they were from many. You spoke of abuse of a guy hurting a woman, if there were other facts that needed to be said -- you DIDN'T say them. That is your fault. All in all, you instigated the responses by your initial post -- whether you MEANT to get those responses is moot -- when you post something you are placing it up for judgement, and opinions -- you can't control what judgements and opinions you will get. angel

barelynangel -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 8:27:17 PM)
All in all, i am tired of this thread lol so i am just going to wish your daughter luck and you luck in working this situation out in a way all come out happy, safe, unharmed and having learned something from each other. angel

JonnieBoy -> RE: Young submission and its consequences (8/10/2009 8:30:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel Sorry but you can't give part of the story and then blame the people for taking what you have said as fact and not disclosing the whole story. angel This isn't "bedtime with bonzo" (or whomever) if you want the whole story of the thread in one go, don't read on, just ... come back when the rest of us are finished and I'm sure it'll be a good read. It's not about training others to discuss/debate the way YOU see fit. (Disagree? ... I'm pulling more viewers than you ... so speak to the sponsors!) Pirate [sm=evil.gif]

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