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RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 12:29:45 PM

FullCircle

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I always tend to think the truth doesn't actually exist, an opinion on what the truth is on the other hand, those are everywhere.

e.g. Perhaps you see something with your own eyes and believe what you see is true but the facts you missed before you saw this event were more relevant to the real truth than the event you saw.

‘What is the colour of the car?’ should actually be rephrased as ‘What was the colour of the car at this point in time?’ The real colour of the car still exists under the new colour sprayed on top.

Perhaps I am being a bit picky but two witnesses saw this car and they both swore it was two different colours.

All cars are the same colour: grey/silver. No all car chassis are the same colour because the car isn't a car yet when the chassis is first painted

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 8/9/2009 12:42:45 PM >

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RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 12:40:39 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

I always tend to think the truth doesn't actually exist, an opinion on what the truth is on the other hand, those are everywhere.

e.g. Perhaps you see something with your own eyes and believe what you see is true but the facts you missed before you saw this event were more relevant to the real truth than the event you saw.

If I am not mistaken, what you speak of is reality; which, I think, can be both opinion and truth, but isn't truth itself.

Also, I sense there is a difference between truth and fact, but admittedly, am having a hard time pinning that down.

Kim

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RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 12:42:55 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
Human beings selecting genes is not natural selection so don't dare imply what I said had anything to do with natural selection.

I guess you never learned anything about the various ways that species evolve, like genetic drift, sexual selection, island colonization and such - all of which are special cases of natural selection. Perhaps you ought to read up on how the peacock evolved its cumbersome tail feathers?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
You've spoken of this penis mutilation thing before in connection to similar discussions about genetics. I don't understand how you connect penis mutilation with genetics and suggest you try to understand the difference between the terms genotype and phenotype.

It is almost impossible for ordinary people to have a creative thought. So you perhaps suppose that it is the length of the little toe which differs between those populations which causes the abhorrent discrepancy in congenital birth defects? Or the number of socks they wear?

< Message edited by Rule -- 8/9/2009 12:43:54 PM >

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RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 12:52:46 PM

FullCircle

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The problem with truth is the fact it is perceived in terms of what is the most accurate opinion of reality.

Two witnesses give different testimonies but one is closer to the crime so theirs is given more credibility perhaps (depending on their involvement). Perhaps two witnesses further away give corroborating testimony about what happened and this differs from the person closer to the scene. In this case the person closer to the scene is deemed to be either lying or has an unreliable recollection of events perhaps due to the trauma of being witness to it. There is no way for sure to say who is right?

Perhaps there is other evidence which points to one testimony being more accurate than another or perhaps such evidence was manufactured to point in one direction.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 8/9/2009 12:54:37 PM >

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RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 12:58:19 PM

Arpig

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quote:

In indigineous Christian European culture the percentage of congenitally defect births is six times lower than in Jewish / Muslim cultures for example. Christianity thus benefits the gene pool.

1) Got any proof to back that up?
2) You don't suppose it might have something to do with the general wealth and better health of Europe compared to most of the Muslim world do you? No, of course not, it simply must be the Christian religion, the same one with rapidly declining attendance throughout Europe. Its God's way of punishing them darn heathens....errrrr.....and there are birth defects among Christians because.....?

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RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 1:05:43 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

The problem with truth is the fact it is perceived in terms of what is the most accurate opinion of reality.

This seems mixed up to me. I think it should read:
"The problem with reality, is the truth that it is perceived in terms of what is the most accurate opinion on fact."

The only thing I can think of at this time that might serve as some sort of example, is the way we perceive ourselves to have been hurt by another’s words.

“(whoever) is mean because they hurt me, when they said….” (opinion?)

“I was hurt by what (whoever) said” (reality?)

"(whoever) said.... It hurt." (fact?)

The truth would be that I am not hurt at all, and just think I am because of ego.

I think that is accurate, but not positive.

Edited for revise.

Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 8/9/2009 1:42:02 PM >

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RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 1:06:18 PM

Arpig

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quote:

Natural selection does not work! Have you told mr. Darwin? You ought to tell him your revelation immediately, for he does not know it and is about to make a serious error: proposing the idea of evolution through natural selection.

errrrr....actually it does work.

quote:

Then how do you explain that the cultures that mutilate the penises of their males have six times more percentage congenital birth defects than indigenous European Christian populations?

1) Again,where is your evidence of this 6 times the rate of birth defects.
2) What correlation is there between circumcision and birth defects? How do you make that leap? What about China, they don't circumcise and yet they have an ever increasing rate of birth defects (see here and here).

I tell ya Rule, whatever it is you smoke, I want some

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RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 1:08:00 PM

FullCircle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
Human beings selecting genes is not natural selection so don't dare imply what I said had anything to do with natural selection.

I guess you never learned anything about the various ways that species evolve, like genetic drift, sexual selection, island colonization and such - all of which are special cases of natural selection. Perhaps you ought to read up on how the peacock evolved its cumbersome tail feathers?

Is a building deemed a natural environment? Selection by mankind isn't natural selection even if you try to argue humans selecting genes is a natural process which it isn't at present. Most of the rest of what you said is rather irrelevant to what I said, so I can’t answer it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
You've spoken of this penis mutilation thing before in connection to similar discussions about genetics. I don't understand how you connect penis mutilation with genetics and suggest you try to understand the difference between the terms genotype and phenotype.

It is almost impossible for ordinary people to have a creative thought. So you perhaps suppose that it is the length of the little toe which differs between those populations which causes the abhorrent discrepancy in congenital birth defects? Or the number of socks they wear?

My view is it's just as likely to be their socks as it is their genetic makeup unless you argue their genetic makeup leads to such behaviour and that isn't an easy thing to prove. You'd prove other things such as social ignorance far quicker than making out people can't help but mutilate themselves due to their genetic make-up or that penis mutilation causes genetic defects.

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RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 1:14:36 PM

Arpig

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quote:

It is almost impossible for ordinary people to have a creative thought. So you perhaps suppose that it is the length of the little toe which differs between those populations which causes the abhorrent discrepancy in congenital birth defects? Or the number of socks they wear?

1) Again with the supposed discrepancy in congenital birth defects (by the way, ALL birth defects are congenital).Please provide some proof.
2) Assuming there is a discrepancy, why doyou ignore the obvious explanations for the bizarre? Europe is richer, better fed, and has a much higher basic standard of health and living. Europe is also, as a whole less polluted (and those badly polluted parts of eastern Europe amazingly enough have a higher incidence of birth defects). Those are the differences that matter,not whether or not they tend to leave a little flap of skin on the end of a penis or not. I am going to go easy on you and not even ask that you provide any proof,instead I will just ask you to explain how circumcision leads to birth defects. Please explain, I am truly interested in hearing this.

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Post #: 29

RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 1:49:22 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
1) Got any proof to back that up?

I googled a bit and came up with this

http://www.cbs.nl/NR/rdonlyres/3309C401-C674-4A74-BD59-F5AA207E7A48/0/2007k4b15pub.pdf
page 62, table points 15

The differences in death due to Aangeboren Afwijkingen is far less than I expected - and not considered significant.

I recall, though, about nine years ago having read a short newspaper article that presented the results from a scientific article, stating that lethal congenital birth defects among Jews and Muslims were six times as high as in the indigenous Ducth population, and that birth defects among people from the Antillen island were five times as high as in the indigenous Dutch population. I have no idea why there is such a large discrepancy between that article and the paper I linked to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
2) You don't suppose it might have something to do with the general wealth and better health of Europe compared to most of the Muslim world do you?

No. The European royals were extremely wealthy and had congenital hemophilia. Most congenital birth defects have nothing to do with living style.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
and there are birth defects among Christians because.....?

There are birth defects in all species and populations. It is the consequence of unfortunate mutations. These mutations in themselves are not a problem, provided that natural selection finds an effective way to remove them from the gene pool.

Edited to add: I have been googling a bit further, but so far did not find other relevant information.

< Message edited by Rule -- 8/9/2009 2:47:13 PM >

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RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 2:57:47 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

I always tend to think the truth doesn't actually exist, an opinion on what the truth is on the other hand, those are everywhere.

Wanted to add a thought to this idea.

No offense, FC, but I hope you are wrong, as I am of the mind; it is not possible to achieve liberty without it.

Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 8/9/2009 2:58:13 PM >

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RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 3:55:27 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Is any action, position, law or ideology inherently right? Or is what is right entirely subjective to the individual/society? I am aware that if you follow a religion you obviously believe that your teachings are correct as they are the words of god which is fair enough, so for this debate i'm interested in those who are atheist or agnostic. Personally I don't believe anything is right or wrong as such there are only things that I believe are the right or wrong thing to do.

No. Consider murdering someone. You may be disincentivised by the law or a duty of care to the people around you but you can't possibly say your personal motivation is 'right'.

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RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 4:17:58 PM

FullCircle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

I always tend to think the truth doesn't actually exist, an opinion on what the truth is on the other hand, those are everywhere.

Wanted to add a thought to this idea.

No offense, FC, but I hope you are wrong, as I am of the mind; it is not possible to achieve liberty without it.

Kim

I don't really follow, liberty in terms of?

Miscarriages of justice have occurred where new evidence came to light and the individual was subsequently released. Liberty in terms of freedom from incarceration is given and taken away by the opinion of twelve people on a jury, we'd obviously like to think they got it right and found the most accurate version of the truth but we can never know for sure.

Also the truth will be far more involved than the questions asked in a court case, the remit of the court case is not for the truth but part of it i.e. simply to prove guilt or innocence of a crime. Why the crime was committed is another part of the truth, sometimes separate from the case depending on who is bringing the evidence and for what purpose (perhaps mitigating circumstances for the crime will be established by the defence as part of the truth).

I think I've inadvertently lead this discussion down the path the op specifically said the op wasn't about by responding to your initial comment about truth.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 8/9/2009 4:26:13 PM >

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RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 4:56:26 PM

pyroaquatic

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Opposites define each other. I have said this many times and will continue to do so.

Lets end world hunger by recycling aborted babies and feeding them to the hungry homeless while we take the skin of our dead and use them to make tents and building materials.

Morbid, yes... but I am only trying to help people. Is it wrong? Is it right?

-shrugs-

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RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 4:56:58 PM

Arpig

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I have held off replying to this thread because I had to think about it. Now as any on here who know my posts can attest, I have a very well developed and rather unforgiving idea of right and wrong. That being said, I think the only possible answer to the OP's 1st question "Is any action, position, law or ideology inherently right?" is no. In fact nothing is inherently right to all people at all times. There are many things I believe are right, but as has been pointed out in this thread (the head hunters was a particularly good analogy) my sense of what is right and wrong is a result of my cultural upbringing combined with my education and my life experience.
That being said,the answer to the OP's second question "Or is what is right entirely subjective to the individual/society?" can only be Yes.
I will be honest, I am sort of disappointed in my conclusion, I would have preferred to have been able to state there were a universal right and wrong, but alas I cannot.
Thanks for posting this Starbuck,and making me really think about something that I usually take for granted.

< Message edited by Arpig -- 8/9/2009 4:57:49 PM >

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RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 5:18:06 PM

Starbuck09

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No woriies ~Arpig i'm glad you enjoyed thinking about it. I feel exactly the same way as you, my own interpretation of what is right and wrong is well developed and very stringent but I do recognise that it has no more validity than any others beyond the fact that I think it does. I could think of no universal right but interestingly I think I may have come close to choosing something that is inherently wrong. It's not a specific action as such but a mindset leading to an action. I believe if you do something that compromises your own moral compass then thart is ALWAYS wrong no matter the morals you are flouting as they are yours. For example a nazi who believed jews were inferior is not wrong to kill them per se [though I personally find it detestable] but a German who thought that the jews hadf as much right to life as any other ethnic group but killed them regardless, for whatever reason, was wrong. I haven't completely thought this part out yet so i could change my view but it seems that this might be a constant example of wrong.

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RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 5:22:38 PM

Arpig

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Yeah, I would tend to agree. To go against your own morality would be inherently wrong. How about the converse: To abide by your own morality is inherently right. That one is not as clear,and sort of calls the first proposition into question. Ah well, time toput the thinking cap on again.

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Post #: 37

RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 5:33:03 PM

cpK69

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Am I mistaken in thinking liberty involves the ability to make responsible choices, under the prevision (not sure that is the word I am looking for) of being informed individuals?

Can people be informed if they do not know truth?

Something tells me there is no such thing as “liberty in terms of freedom”, that they are somehow opposites; liberty, requiring responsibility, freedom, releasing one from responsibility toward something.

Something also tells me, it is this ‘freedom’ that causes the need for law.

Not really getting a warm and fuzzy feeling about how I worded that. Perhaps, someone will be able to help translate, if it does not make sense.

Kim

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Post #: 38

RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 5:35:01 PM

Starbuck09

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I know what you're saying about the inverse of he idea negates the validity of the original but I tink there might be a subtle difference. Right will always be subjective no matter what [with the exception that there is an afterlife and one of the religions is entirely correct] I can't see how it could be any other way. However if someone was on trial for say war crimes, and when they took the stand they defended themselves by saying their actions, all of them, were done in good faith and they believe them to be both necessary and right then despite disagreeing with them I would have a measure of respect. For example I disagree with the Taliban's etos but I can respect their bravery e.t.c. However if someone took the stand and said I knew this was wrong the ideas were never mine but I went along with it anyway then my respect would be completely eroded. Like I say Arpig i haven't completely thought through this part yet but it seems like it could be...right

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RE: Is anything inherently right? - 8/9/2009 5:35:01 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic

Lets end world hunger by recycling aborted babies and feeding them to the hungry homeless while we take the skin of our dead and use them to make tents and building materials.

Morbid, yes... but I am only trying to help people. Is it wrong? Is it right?

-shrugs-

Is it necessary to life, in accordance with truth?

Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 8/9/2009 5:36:03 PM >

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