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Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/9/2009 9:54:18 AM

beargonewild

Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

Been following a thread in Ask A Master regarding a person in a power based relationship and their personal sense of morals and inhibitions. Rather then derailing that thread, I wanted to pose this question here as it is related yet separate.

As humans, we all have inhibitions and have formed a sense of morality in this area, especially in regards to what we will and will not do. This is so true when it comes to own own sexuality and how we express our sexual nature and our attitudes about sex.

My query is while keeping the above in mind as it pertains to a power based relationship between a "D" and an "S" type person: does the D expect their submissive to deviate from the sub's sense of inhibitions or moral code in this area and place full trust in the dominant even if the dominant person will and may require the sub to go against her inhibitions?
I am looking at this from the POV that obedience is one of the core values to a power based dynamic and if the obedience wavers then it implies that the relationship can not be accurately be considered a power based D/s or M/s relationship in a pure and accurate form?

*note*
-this does not assume there's just one way
-this post is only seeking opinions based upon an individual perspective
-this post does not imply/assume there's a right or wrong, simply to garner other concepts other than my own.

_____________________________

Do Not Rile da Chosen Bear

Promiscuous boy you already know
That I’m all yours what you waiting for?

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Post #: 1

RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/9/2009 9:57:59 AM

LillyoftheVally

Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

My query is while keeping the above in mind as it pertains to a power based relationship between a "D" and an "S" type person: does the D expect their submissive to deviate from the sub's sense of inhibitions or moral code in this area and place full trust in the dominant even if the dominant person will and may require the sub to go against her inhibitions?

To me inhibitions are different to morality. I would go against inhibitions in a D/s relationships, indeed have many a time. Morality is different, I am idealistic and I would very much struggle going against it, indeed if I found someone was asking me to do something that i consider immoral then to me that means we arent compatible ad the relationship would seriously be in question. Course love and devotion does make it harder to be as cut and dry as that, and though the relationship may go on part of the feelings will have dies, sometimes to the extent that they can't be repaired.

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to beargonewild)

Post #: 2

RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/9/2009 10:03:11 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

My query is while keeping the above in mind as it pertains to a power based relationship between a "D" and an "S" type person: does the D expect their submissive to deviate from the sub's sense of inhibitions or moral code in this area and place full trust in the dominant even if the dominant person will and may require the sub to go against her inhibitions?

For our household, I'd have to say that the overall answer is "yes". I'd like to qualify it a bit and say that, in general, the decision-making process would weed out individuals whose personal ethical code was so dichotomous from ours that the person would never really feel comfortable in our household.

That being said, when the rubber hits the road, I -do- expect that measure of obedience, directly in relation to the measure of yield of a given servant. What I mean by that is that if we have a servant who participates with us -strictly- to, say, learn tea service, I will expect complete obedience, including the ethical boundaries, where they directly relate to hir capacity to complete a proper tea service. If I have a servant who has yielded in a comprehensive-authority dynamic, I will expect that xhe will give complete obedience -and- yield to our ethical standard across the board. If xhe cannot do so, then it is irrelevant whether or not xhe says xhe -wants- that comprehensive dynamic... the reality is that xhe still feels compelled to withhold hir obedience in that area, just in case, and so there cannot -be- a comprehensive dynamic in place.

Does this make any sense?

Dame Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to beargonewild)

Post #: 3

RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/9/2009 10:04:06 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

- and this post only describes MY relationship, not anyone else's

Carol & I take the T in TPE kind of seriously. I also take the word "ownership" pretty seriously. Her inhibitions and sense of ethics and morality are also mine. The moment I found any such area, I would call our relationship D/s rather than M/s and there'd have to be some negotation. Note that I don't expect Carol to go against her inhibitions. I expect her to change those inhibitions so that she is NOT going against them (ditto with moral code). I'm way more focused in internal submission than I am external action.

I do think, however, that there are HUGE sections of the audience that engage in an authority transfer dynamic which is not "total" in nature and they don't want it to be. Obedience needn't be unquestioned to qualify as an authority dynamic. And I have to tell you, perhaps Carol is a shitty slave, but her obedience "wavers" all the time. I wouldn't feel like I was doing my job if it didn't.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to beargonewild)

Post #: 4

RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/9/2009 10:09:00 AM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

This is why I stayed single for so very long.

My morals are not the same as my inhibitions. If I was just feeling shy about doing something and Master ordered me to do it anyway, I do it.

If he asked me to go against my values and morals then we'd have a huge problem and most likely our relationship would be on the verge of ending.

I took my time in finding a man who was as close to my morals and values as possible, someone I knew who wouldn't make me feel ashamed for doing something I knew deep down was wrong.

And this is the whole problem imo. People rushing into relaitonships, into playing with others without first really getting to know the other person. I'm not talking about going over a list of dos and don't, of limits, etc...I'm talking about just being with each other and really...really...getting to know who the person is that you are with.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 5

RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/9/2009 10:23:57 AM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline

People rush this stuff all the time. Many of them come in with the need to be owned or own something, to be a slave or a master, without regard to who they are or what need they have beyond flipping those little hot charged buttons that say you are not alone.

It would piss me off if I cared more. It does irritate me though. Not because they rush into it, but because here on the forums I have to read.. if your master says to do it you do it, because you are property. Gah.

Choose well and there is no issue. Don't rush it and you might have to get to know that partner before you commit.

Going past your inhibitions can be part of what draws and keeps you growing. Violating your moral or ethical code erodes, how healthy is that? If over time you change because the change is within you that is different. But to change because someone demands it ... I don't get that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I took my time in finding a man who was as close to my morals and values as possible, someone I knew who wouldn't make me feel ashamed for doing something I knew deep down was wrong.

And this is the whole problem imo. People rushing into relaitonships, into playing with others without first really getting to know the other person. I'm not talking about going over a list of dos and don't, of limits, etc...I'm talking about just being with each other and really...really...getting to know who the person is that you are with.

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 6

RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/9/2009 10:26:07 AM

daintydimples

Posts: 967
Joined: 7/6/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

This is why I stayed single for so very long.

My morals are not the same as my inhibitions. If I was just feeling shy about doing something and Master ordered me to do it anyway, I do it.

If he asked me to go against my values and morals then we'd have a huge problem and most likely our relationship would be on the verge of ending.

I took my time in finding a man who was as close to my morals and values as possible, someone I knew who wouldn't make me feel ashamed for doing something I knew deep down was wrong.

And this is the whole problem imo. People rushing into relaitonships, into playing with others without first really getting to know the other person. I'm not talking about going over a list of dos and don't, of limits, etc...I'm talking about just being with each other and really...really...getting to know who the person is that you are with.

I so agree with everything you have written here. I am in the very early stages of exploring a relationship with someone (I'm in he midwest, he's on the east coast). We have spent hours on the phone, but we've never gone down the kinks list. We're finding out who each other IS. One of the most important things for me to discover: Is he a man of integrity? Is his personal moral code similar to my own? We're meeting right away b/c in my opinion the best way to find that out is face to face (well okay, also to see if the chemistyy is as good in person).

It's my experience that inhibited people often hide behind their moral code. Just saying . . .

_____________________________

Some soften by the forced reflection that comes from loss; others harden. Which are you?

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 7

RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/9/2009 10:53:02 AM

Apocalypso

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

Been following a thread in Ask A Master regarding a person in a power based relationship and their personal sense of morals and inhibitions. Rather then derailing that thread, I wanted to pose this question here as it is related yet separate.

As humans, we all have inhibitions and have formed a sense of morality in this area, especially in regards to what we will and will not do. This is so true when it comes to own own sexuality and how we express our sexual nature and our attitudes about sex.

For me, morality and inhibitions are very different. I simply wouldn't get involved with a submissive who's moral code was wildly opposed to mine. I don't think that would be right for either of us.

However, that doesn't really come into conflict with attitudes to sex. Considering a strong part of my moral code is that consensual sexual activity is between the people involved.

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to beargonewild)

Post #: 8

RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/9/2009 11:02:05 AM

slaveluci

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline

As others have said, I find a big difference between inhibitions and morality. I obey Master and I am perfectly willing to go "against" my inhibitions and try new/different things. I am not willing to go "against" my morals, nor does He expect me to. Fortunately, my morals closely match up with His and on the couple of issues where we believe slightly differently, He respects those differences and would never stoop to "making" me change them. That's impossible anyway. Only the passage of time has ever served to alter any deeply held beliefs of mine.

I agree that "obedience is one of the core values to a power based dynamic" but disagree that "if the obedience wavers then it implies that the relationship can not be accurately be considered a power based D/s or M/s relationship in a pure and accurate form?" Pure and accurate by whose standards? It still is by ours. On the rare occasions that my obedience wavers for any reason, it doesn't change the fact that our relationship is "power based." It actually ends up reinforcing it when I obey anyway

luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to beargonewild)

Post #: 9

RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/9/2009 11:18:46 AM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

My morals are the core, intertwined and rooted within my being. Anyone who would want to change or expected me to change my ethics would, in essence, want a different person than who I am. In that case, he is welcome to move on and find her---in someone else.
I am not willing to give up the ‘me’ of me for anyone.
It would seem to me that within a viable relationship a dominant would encourage and respect a submissive who will not compromise that moral ground.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to beargonewild)

Post #: 10

RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/9/2009 12:15:06 PM

SassySarijane

Posts: 1558
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: KC Area Missouri
Status: offline

In time and with the right person, certain inhibitions of mine can be overcome. My morals are part of the core of me. Someone who wants to push me into something against my moral code isn't going to stay in my life. Been there done that, not doing it again, learned my lesson. If my morals change in whatever way, it has to come from me, be my choice, not be forced on me by another.

_____________________________

Sarah2
Deviant Mind
Wild Side Readers
LPTnB

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 11

RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/9/2009 3:10:45 PM

AlexandraLynch

Posts: 778
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline

My inhibitions are largely physically based. There are things I don't do because I know that the physical aftereffects will likely make me very miserable. I respect the deep inhibitions of others, so as to give them a safe space in which to see if that inhibition can be given up without severe trauma.

Part of getting to know each other is finding out our moral codes. While I do not expect my people to necessarily conform to my code in all respects, I do expect them to do so where it pertains to me. I'll give you an example...

My husband's girl lives out. If she goes to the store for toilet paper, shampoo, and other necessities of existence, it is her business where she buys them. If I ask her to pick me up toilet paper on her way over for the weekend, she knows that purchasing it at Wal-Mart is unacceptable to me.

_____________________________

I use fastreply. Don't take offence where none is meant.

Just because I'm not a bitch doesn't mean I'm not perfectly capable of making sure you'll be very sorry if you disobey.

(in reply to SassySarijane)

Post #: 12

RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/9/2009 5:11:30 PM

aldompdx

Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline

What you describe is an authority based relationship, not a power based relationship. The two are different.

This response further assumes you live in a common law jurisdiction, Canada, where it is unlawful to own or enslave another person.

The first core value is informed consent. One cannot exercise power to own or enslave another, because it is unlawful. However, one can freely choose to serve another in a similar manner, while always retaining the power to withdraw their consent to follow the preference of their partner (delegated authority).

In this context, obedience is always a choice (SSC, RACK, SSICK). It is the responsibility of the controller to provide the foundational training which supports and enables the surrendered to grow, evolve, and transform their morals, boundaries, and limits -- which must always be respected. It is not coercion, manipulation, or oppression. It is not trust, faith, or hope. Instead, it is about having confidence in one's own discrimination to choose based on experience gained over time.

The ultimate question posed is whether it is okay to exercise power and abuse another person against their will, or whether one must always respect the power of another person to freely choose what they share.

Surrender is a free choice from self will, not an adverse imposition of a self proclaimed master's will. One can own their choice to surrender, or own their choice to exercise authority that is freely delegated by another, but one cannot own another person. It may be a nice fantasy or psychological delusion, but such ownership is not real, and the power to impose value or morality is also unreal within the civilized society and rule of law which underlies this discussion.

It is actually the controller who surrenders to the boundaries and limits which the controllee chooses not to waive. Everybody has limits -- EVERYBODY. Death is the ultimate limit of life, which is a process of exercising power and authority, of thinking, feeling, and choosing. Hopefully, nobody here believes that homicide is an acceptable imposition of power against the values and inhibitions of another. Work backwards from that philosophical ultimatum.

< Message edited by aldompdx -- 8/9/2009 5:14:46 PM >

(in reply to AlexandraLynch)

Post #: 13

RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/9/2009 5:20:31 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

If he wants me to do something that I find unethical, then that shows a lack of compatibility at a deeper level.

And along with my sense of obedience to him, he has an obligation not to harm me. And forcing me to violate my moral code certainly would do that.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to aldompdx)

Post #: 14

RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/10/2009 5:53:36 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

Des beat Me to it on this one. Since the others who responded already made the distinction between inhibitions and morality, I won't repeat. I'll simply go for the one that I think spurred the question.

As the Dominant in the dynamic, just because someone is under My authority, it doesn't mean that I have to abuse that authority. Any command that I give My submissive to obey isn't necessarily just that singular action. I also have to look at the potential ripple effect of that action. What consequences are there going to be? When we start fooling with things that go against someone's morals and ethics, there's a huge potential for harm. Depending on the moral that we're talking about here, it can be damaging to the way the submissive thinks about their own honor and integrity. It can be harmful to the dynamic itself, as it's going to bring such focus on the incompatibility between the two persons involved. Depending on the subject, it can also harm the submissive in terms of the consequences they may have to deal with in the outside world. If I order My submissive to steal a car, and he obeys, telling the police he was following My orders isn't going to get him very far. That's an outlandish example, as I would never order such a thing, but you understand My point.

The point is, with that power that My submissive has given to Me, avoiding intentional harm is one of My responsibilities. If I don't see that, I wouldn't tend to think I should be in authority to begin with.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 15

RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/10/2009 7:35:45 AM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

I don't see morality as something that is static in my life. I was raised that it is immoral to have sex outside of marriage, but I have no plans to ever get married, so that little piece of morality was easily discarded. Before I met my Lord, I was very strongly and morally against having a relationship with a married man. That wasn't as easily discarded as the no sex outside of marriage, but it has been discarded.

There are certain morality issues that I know if I violate them it will harm me, since his morality prevents him from intentionally harming me, then he will not expect me to alter that. However, if a piece of my morality did not coincide with his and he did not see any harm to me in changing my perspective, then I was expected to change my morals, continue to go against them or leave the relationship.

I guess I am more adaptable than I thought. There are some pieces of my moral code that are at the core of who I am and then there are others that have just been put there over time because of society. Working to weed out which is the core of me and which is just extra junk that I don't need has been quite a challenge.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to beargonewild)

Post #: 16

RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/10/2009 7:43:25 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

And again.......what LadyPact already said...

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 17

RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/10/2009 7:44:41 AM

Drakontos

Posts: 167
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline

quote:

does the D expect their submissive to deviate from the sub's sense of inhibitions or moral code in this area and place full trust in the dominant even if the dominant person will and may require the sub to go against her inhibitions?

For zaphira, yes.

If Master decides that he wishes for zaphira to do something, even if it goes against zaphira's own morality; then he expects zaphira to follow his wishes.

If zaphira were to refuse, Master would terminate the relationship immediately.

_____________________________

Drakontos
zaphira

Live with honor; serve with grace and beauty

(in reply to beargonewild)

Post #: 18

RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/10/2009 7:59:28 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

just a couple comments to add to Kyra's post.

As Kyra stated... My family sees morality and ethics to be a more fluid concept than a static one. How such things change can be tramatic and quick to something that is slow and peaceful. But... to me what is more important is understand.. Why do you believe X in order to understand and facilate change if it is desired. Understanding and appreciating the whys just might help one to understand if change can be constructive or destructive to the well-being of a person. Of course... sometimes they change so quickly that one is looking back to see why they changed and hopefully the change is not harmful to one's well-being.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to beargonewild)

Post #: 19

RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/10/2009 10:37:59 AM

Acer49

Posts: 1434
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

Been following a thread in Ask A Master regarding a person in a power based relationship and their personal sense of morals and inhibitions. Rather then derailing that thread, I wanted to pose this question here as it is related yet separate.

As humans, we all have inhibitions and have formed a sense of morality in this area, especially in regards to what we will and will not do. This is so true when it comes to own own sexuality and how we express our sexual nature and our attitudes about sex.

My query is while keeping the above in mind as it pertains to a power based relationship between a "D" and an "S" type person: does the D expect their submissive to deviate from the sub's sense of inhibitions or moral code in this area and place full trust in the dominant even if the dominant person will and may require the sub to go against her inhibitions?
I am looking at this from the POV that obedience is one of the core values to a power based dynamic and if the obedience wavers then it implies that the relationship can not be accurately be considered a power based D/s or M/s relationship in a pure and accurate form?

*note*
-this does not assume there's just one way
-this post is only seeking opinions based upon an individual perspective
-this post does not imply/assume there's a right or wrong, simply to garner other concepts other than my own.

First, I’d like to commend the OP for such an insightful topic

Much noise has been made about the TPE and the gift of power, well, with power, also brings the responsibility for the individual who has granted it. Only ones who have proven their morals and ethics are beyond reproach should be granted such an honor. If I was in a TPE situation with a submissive had an issue with respect to performing oral sex let’s say. I, of course could, by virtue of the dynamic, command it of her, but it would be for a self serving reason; and at what cost? I do not believe that matters dealing with my sexual gratifications are worth the damage that would come from such a request.

The Dominant may own someone’s mind and body, however, the soul and the code of morals has a stamp on it, Property of God. No dominant will ever be worthy or pure enough to stand up to the Almighty and as such has no business messing with a sub’s moral code.

_____________________________

Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey Fierstein

(in reply to beargonewild)

Post #: 20

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