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Female Submission and Feminism - 8/9/2009 11:21:13 PM

lioncub

Posts: 78
Joined: 7/26/2009
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I'd just like to share my thoughts on my newly-accepted submissive nature. I hope this is the right place.

My mom is a feminist in the sense that she believes men are equal to women, besides the very obvious difference of parts. I believe this as well. A women can do what ever she pleases, as can a man. The problem is that I feel guilty for being of a submissive nature, when my mother tried so hard to raise me otherwise! I can function perfectly well on my own without someone there to be an authority figure or guide, but it's something I crave. All my life before this I was told that strong women are independent and don't need men (or a dominant someone) to hold their hand!

I've had feelings of inadequacy for being submissive, even before I realized what "being submissive" was. I have sometimes felt that I am a failure of a young women, or what society says is a young women. And I guess that may be true, I am not what popular culture sees as strong. Of course, I know that I am strong. It is hard, though, to keep up my self-esteem in a world where the strong women are the independent, self-sufficient ones.

Thanks for reading!

_____________________________

In gentleness there is strength.

Post #: 1

RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 3:21:13 AM

LillyoftheVally

Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
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Ok I know the feeling, but I am also a submissive and feminist with no guilt because for me the movement was not about making all women into one thing, which is what your guilt implies. Yes feminism worked to allow women to make choices, she could go to work full time and didnt have to get married or she could stay at home and raise a family, hell if she wanted to she could do both.

I choose to be a submissive because I can I do not believe for a moment that every woman is submissive (though I know many people who do) and for that reason it is perfectly in line with feminism. To be against it would be to say all women are naturally ... basically any bigotry. Problem is an awful lot of rubbish is carried out in feminism's name. To be honest though in the strictest terms I personally would not want to know anyone who did not believe the basic feminist philosophy

People have the right to CHOOSE what to be.

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to lioncub)

Post #: 2

RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 3:46:13 AM

faithfulfemme

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Joined: 5/24/2007
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i have a lot of respect for those women who fought so bravely for the rest of us to gain our equal rights in society. The "war" isn't over, there is still lots of ground to win, but our rights ARE coming around, albeit slowly.

However, having equal rights and freedoms in society doesn't mean these rights are MANDATORY. The feminist movement gained me many, many freedoms but the Women's movement can't dictate to me whether or not i use these freedoms.

Think about it, lioncub, the Women's Rights movement didn't take away your freedom to choose your right path....they simply gave all of us options. Just because i could run for President should i desire to doesn't mean i can't sit at the feet of my Daddy, instead, if i should decide this is the right place for me to be.

It's always been about choice.......that just somehow got lost in the shuffle.

Cordially in Leather,
faithfulfemme....

_____________________________

Trust is neither wishing nor hoping; it is a deep sense of honor in another.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 3

RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 4:08:16 AM

LillyoftheVally

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Joined: 7/22/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: faithfulfemme
However, having equal rights and freedoms in society doesn't mean these rights are MANDATORY. The feminist movement gained me many, many freedoms but the Women's movement can't dictate to me whether or not i use these freedoms.

I see it differently, it is because of those rights and freedoms that I can do what I want. We all use our freedom to choose what we want to do. Just because there are links between submission and what is perceived to be the traditional female role does not mean that I have decided to not use my equal rights. I am not forced to stay at home, nor be on a BDSM website, that is my choosing, as are the relationship styles that I get involved in.

I know pedantic of me because we are fundementally agreeing but still.

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to faithfulfemme)

Post #: 4

RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 4:30:17 AM

catize

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Joined: 3/7/2006
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I just posted this yesterday in another thread:
The goal of the feminist movement was to create parity for woman and to ensure equal rights under the law. The objective was to give us choices rather than keep us in preconceived ‘womanly’ roles. The feminist movement gave us options; we no longer ‘had’ to marry, we could choose whether or not to procreate, we could (in theory) work the same jobs as men and expect the same pay.
It was/is about our right to choose. My decision to submit in my intimate relationships upholds that goal because *I* *have* *a* *choice*.
To suggest that as a submissive I am negating feminism as a whole is as narrow minded and confining as those who tried to tell us in pre-feminist times what we could do and how we should act.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to lioncub)

Post #: 5

RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 5:10:57 AM

robertolapiedra

Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
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Hello lioncub. Feminism is gender politics, it is about social equality. In our context, submission is about sexuality. Although it may rarely be seen as a public display, it is mostly a ''non of your business'' private intimate matter between two consenting adults.

You have equality in a dominant/submissive intimate relationship in as much as both are doing what they want. If you let politicians or political activists dictate to you how to be in your private life you forfeit your independence to pseudo ideology, you are submitting negatively. Besides, how do you know that your mother is not like you? She may be a very militant feminist but are you sure that she brings this in her bedroom? It is possible that she may enjoy bottoming once in a while? What do you think? RL

(in reply to lioncub)

Post #: 6

RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 6:03:34 AM

LillyoftheVally

Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra

Hello lioncub. Feminism is gender politics, it is about social equality. In our context, submission is about sexuality.

I think that is a rather overly simplistic statement

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to robertolapiedra)

Post #: 7

RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 6:11:22 AM

Lashra

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Feminism is about women having the freedom of choice to be whoever they wish to be in their lives. Do not feel guility for who you are, as long as you are happy that is all that counts. I am a feminist and I am glad that we both can make our individual choices for our own lives.

Strength comes in a variety of different wrappings, some view independent and self sufficient as strong. I however tend to believe that as long as you are living your own life on your own terms, that makes you personally strong. It is when you bow down to the social "norms" and feel unhappy that makes a person weak.

Be happy in who you are.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to lioncub)

Post #: 8

RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 7:18:15 AM

daintydimples

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I do not see the two things, female submission and feminism, as being mutually exclusive. However, I do see being female as biological, not political.

For me personally, the feminist movement has never addressed a basic of being female, which is that we tend to have children. And we tend to be the primary care givers of those children.

I quit a high-powered job to stay home and raise my children. I was fortunate enough to be married to someone who made enough money to allow me to do that. It was a luxury many just do not have.

That's marvelous we have the choice to work outside of the home while we raise our children, but the movement gave us no tools that would help us do that, such as affordable child care. I would have admired this movement much more if it had addressed this issue.

Yes, I feel I am equal to any man. I'm very aware I am different.

_____________________________

Some soften by the forced reflection that comes from loss; others harden. Which are you?

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 9

RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 7:45:37 AM

robertolapiedra

Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra

Hello lioncub. Feminism is gender politics, it is about social equality. In our context, submission is about sexuality.

I think that is a rather overly simplistic statement

Thank you! Please feel free to enlighten me by stating ''why'' you think so. RL.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 10

RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 7:58:50 AM

Apocalypso

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra
Thank you! Please feel free to enlighten me by stating ''why'' you think so. RL.

"The personal is political" at the risk of being a bit trite.

But yeah, you can't seperate social movements from interpersonal relationships (sexual or otherwise) in the way you're doing here for me. How we treat those closest to us is as much of a reflection of our worldview as the more 'activist' stuff, if not more.

People who talk about revolution and class struggle without referring explicitly to everyday life, without understanding what is subversive about love and what is positive in the refusal of constraints, such people have a corpse in their mouth.

(Raoul Vaneigem)

Not a feminist quote, but has relevance to this discussion for me.

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to robertolapiedra)

Post #: 11

RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 8:09:08 AM

LillyoftheVally

Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
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Thanks Apocalypso

I would like to tack on the fact that to say submission is based purely in sexuality is equally as limiting.

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to Apocalypso)

Post #: 12

RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 9:29:58 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

submission and equality are two very different ideas, states, beings, or whatever, and they are not in any wise miscible.

Master (separate; but equal)

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 13

RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 9:59:52 AM

robertolapiedra

Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

Thanks Apocalypso

I would like to tack on the fact that to say submission is based purely in sexuality is equally as limiting.

Ok, I guess I may have a ''limiting'' commentary. Unless we may have a different definition of human sexuality? I just put Wiki's definition below, if you want, feel free to add what is missing.

Wikipedia: human sexuality
Human sexuality is how people experience the erotic and express themselves as sexual beings.[1] Human sexuality has many aspects.
Biologically, sexuality refers to the reproductive mechanism as well as the basic biological drive that exists in all species and can encompass sexual intercourse and sexual contact in all its forms.
There are also emotional or physical aspect of sexuality, which refers to the bond that exists between individuals, which may be expressed through profound feelings or emotions, and which may be manifested in physical or medical concerns about the physiological or even psychological aspects of sexual behaviour.
Sociologically, it can cover the cultural, political, and legal aspects; and philosophically, it can span the moral, ethical, theological, spiritual or religious aspects.

Recent studies on human sexuality have highlighted that sexual aspects are of major importance in building up personal identity and to social evolution of individuals:

“Human sexuality is not simply imposed by instinct or stereotypical conducts, as it happens in animals, but it is influenced both by superior mental activity and by social, cultural, educational and normative characteristics of those places where the subjects grow up and their personality develops. Consequently, the analysis of sexual sphere must be based on the convergence of several lines of development such as affectivity, emotions and relations”.

For me the term sexuality is encompassing and non dissociative. When I speak about sex, I do not use the term sexuality as sex (sexual relations) is only a small part of human sexuality. In my opinion the term ''Feminism'' is only but one of the many branches of social politics (gender politics) and yes there is a componant stemming from sexuality. I may be wrong, and I thank you for your input. RL.

[/link]
[link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sexuality#cite_note-Boccadoro-1]
[/link][link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sexuality#cite_note-Boccadoro-1]

[/link]

[link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sexuality#cite_note-Boccadoro-1]

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 14

RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 10:04:42 AM

LillyoftheVally

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Joined: 7/22/2009
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So RL you would define relationships without any sexual components as sexual? Do you have what you consider sexual relationships with your friends?

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to robertolapiedra)

Post #: 15

RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 10:25:51 AM

shadowowl

Posts: 198
Joined: 5/31/2004
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Well if men can be subs then women have the right to be too hehe
All about equal rights in any direction you look at it and all about the ability for personal choice atleast that's how I view feminism.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 16

RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 10:25:53 AM

VeeTee

Posts: 45
Joined: 7/25/2009
Status: offline

lioncub, I have had the same internal discussion and have had a bit of a struggle with my self-esteem. However, once I realized (through the help of many kind people on this site) that I alone define and control my self-worth, my definition of strength - well, that helped me to become more at ease with my submissive nature. I have the high powered job, I do the work that I previously thought would define me. Now I know that that is just a part of me, what I do as a career, not all of me. I really feel my strength when I am with a Master. When I know that I am freely submitting and showing my strength through that submission. And he respects me for that which teaches me to respect myself.

so, yes - I am a feminist submissive. I can make choices and my goal is to use my feminist freedom to find personal happiness.

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 17

RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 10:26:38 AM

robertolapiedra

Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

So RL you would define relationships without any sexual components as sexual? Do you have what you consider sexual relationships with your friends?

Depends on your definition of ''sexual''. If you mean carnal sex or the equivalent, of course not. With your friends you are still a person who has a sexuality as you cannot dissociate from what makes you a social entity. But I can be affectionate and express this in a sensual way without it necessarily being of a ''carnal'' nature, right?. Relationships between best friends are different if you are male to male, female to female, male to female or different sexual orientations, etc because everyones sexuality is different at some level or another. Just observe best buddies around you, it is self evident in my opinion. RL.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 18

RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 10:41:59 AM

Arpig

Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
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I am a feminist. I believe in the innate equality of men and women. Your submissive nature is just that, your nature. You have justas much right as do I to try to find fulfilment by living in accordance with your nature as does the woman who is driven to succeed in business, or the woman who is drawn to the role of housewife. Feminism is about freeing women from societal expectations of what is and isn`t appropriate for women. It frees you to be yourself. If that self is submissive and wishes to serve a man (or other woman) sexually and otherwise, then so be it.

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran

(in reply to robertolapiedra)

Post #: 19

RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 11:28:17 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
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*sighs* OK, it doesn't really matter which studies you read... if you read stuff on leadership, you'll find that only a small percentage of humans are in the "natural leader" category. So doing some sloppy deductive work, we can loosely assume that something like 9 out of 10 people are more in the follower camp than leader one. Which really gets you to thinking... what freakin idiotic society paints the natural disposition of 90% of it's population as defective?

My mom is a feminist in the sense that she believes men are equal to women, besides the very obvious difference of parts. I believe this as well. A women can do what ever she pleases, as can a man.
Yeah, Carol is also... she's an old-school feminist given her age. And, in fact, so am I. It literally disgusts me that there is still a wage gap and still a glass ceiling (although both are slowly but surely crumbling). The idea that women should be subjected to sexual advances in the workplace is enough to make my blood boil. Conveniently, I don't see what any of those really firmly held convictions has to do with Carol being my slave.

The problem is that I feel guilty for being of a submissive nature, when my mother tried so hard to raise me otherwise!
This, right here, is I suspect the root of the problem? Did she REALLY try to raise you otherwise? I would suggesting asking yourself a series of "why" questions here to try to understand what your mother REALLY wanted and, more importantly, what YOU really want. From your description, you're not defective as a human. You are perfectly well capable of functioning as a self-supporting adult in society. You just CHOOSE to take a subordinate role. How is that any different than me taking a dominant role? In the end, all my leadership is worth exactly zero without someone to follow. You could argue that I'm just as "defective" as Carol is. I just tend to see us as two sides of the same coin that work together well without any value judgement on whether heads or tails is better.

I've had feelings of inadequacy for being submissive, even before I realized what "being submissive" was. I have sometimes felt that I am a failure of a young women, or what society says is a young women. And I guess that may be true, I am not what popular culture sees as strong. Of course, I know that I am strong. It is hard, though, to keep up my self-esteem in a world where the strong women are the independent, self-sufficient ones.
Yeah yeah.. but WHY? Why SPECIFICALLY is being submissive bad. You yourself have stated (as I noted above) that you are a capable and competent human. You just have a preference towards following someone else's lead rather than striking out on your own. You share that preference with the vast majority of humanity. So exactly how is that a bad thing?

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to lioncub)

Post #: 20

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