RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (Full Version)

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Starbuck09 -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 4:30:18 PM)

It is nothing like that in the slightest I have simply pointed out the hypocricy of your posts and used your own tactics upon you to demonstrate their foolishness. Brilliantly you condemn those same tactics as trolling without a hint of self awareness.



NoreenSwan -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 4:35:58 PM)

There obvious nothing very productive and thoughtful in your troll-like ongoing attempt to baffle with bullshit.



Starbuck09 -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 4:38:05 PM)

They are your own tactics that you are condemning Noreen. If you view them as trollish then one would think my original post to you was vindicated and that you should modify your behaviour accordingly. Lest you wish to be though of as a troll...



NoreenSwan -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 4:39:52 PM)

You keep coming back with personal attacks, like a typical troll - repetitive with neither merit nor intent to engage in meaningful discussion.  It is the discord that is the motivation, not the illumination of any fact or opinion. But we can agree to disagree.



Starbuck09 -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 4:42:20 PM)

I am doing nothing but what you have done to others Noreen. If you do not believe me theyou can look back at the last three pages which have been reserved their for posterity. I have used your own tactics against you [again yoan check] and you have pronounced them trollish. Thereis a lesson to be learned there Noreen.



NoreenSwan -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 4:43:33 PM)

Congratulations on your self acclaimed 100 foot (now the largest ever) 'almighty teacher' trophy! That's a common disease of a troll.



Starbuck09 -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 4:49:21 PM)

My self acclaimed 100 foot largest ever almighty teacher trophy? I'm afraid I possess no such trophy sef accaimed or otherwise. What  I do possess is sufficient  wit to point out your hypocricy your claims of trollish behaviour serve only to damn yourself. But then trolls so rarely like the taste of their own medicine particuarly when it is so...bitter.



pyroaquatic -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 4:50:47 PM)

Do I have to slap the both of you? Behave!!!

*wags fingers*

Take this into personal messages.



NoreenSwan -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 4:50:57 PM)

Your "views" on my posts are as useful as the gum stuck on my shoe because you're a troll with nothing productive to say.



Starbuck09 -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 4:52:33 PM)

Only if it was gently pyro.



LadyPact -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 5:00:24 PM)

The fighting amongst yourselves, boys, is leaving little opportunity for us to torture you properly.  [8D]



Starbuck09 -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 5:03:01 PM)

I'm sure if ultimate surrender is anything to go by ther must be a niche for erotic male wrestling Lady...



PeonForHer -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 5:34:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: XYisInferior


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Nope, what I need is someone who wants to engage in reasoning with me, Noreen...


Ironic petition, coming from the political professor who recently gestured that anyone antithetical to his beliefs can basically fuck off and swivel on it.


Mark these words well, Inferior, for you shall not hear them often:

Nobody's perfect. [;)]

P.S.  I'm not a professor.  I think the word's used differently in the U.S. 



PeonForHer -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 5:39:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

The fighting amongst yourselves, boys, is leaving little opportunity for us to torture you properly.  [8D]


Eh?  I thought at least one was female.  Mind you, you can't tell, these days, can you?    Men with long hair, women with short hair . . . where will it all end?  To think I fought and died in two world wars for this. 



LadyPact -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 5:41:25 PM)

You are correct, Peon.  My apologies to Noreen.



thishereboi -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 5:45:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NoreenSwan

Your lousy attempt at diminishing my posts has failed. Nice try though. Regardless, my points were made and heard whether you like it or not. Thanks for the advice on how to debate according to you. Truthfully your response to my arguments are pure drivel and more irrelevant than the original drivel by the posters you're defending.



quote:

Getting personal is unnecessary. Stay on track. I know you got it in you.



PeonForHer -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 7:00:53 PM)

You are correct, Peon. 
 
Thanks for the tribute, LP.  [;)]






MarcEsadrian -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE...THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE" (8/19/2009 8:21:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I don't think history is the source of our disagreement.  Rather, it's to do with the definition of the word 'slave'.  In the non-BDSM sense of 'slave' I was following the OED's definition, "One who is the property of, and entirely subject to, another person, whether by capture, purchase or birth; a servant completely divested of freedom and personal rights". 

In that sense there's no choice involved and no condition that can be made with one's owner.  A person who's completely divested of freedom and personal rights does not get to say "I will be your slave if you feed me" or "if you protect me".  He or she doesn't get to say "I will be your slave if [anything whatsoever]" 

For me, BDSM slavery is a fundamentally different thing.  The timidity that most needs to be overcome in order properly to conceive of 'true BDSM slavery' is that which makes some submissives believe that they have to have minds that are free of all contradictory impulses - the one impulse to master his world, to use his freedom to strive for what he enjoys; the other, to submit and feel dominated by another person.  A submissive needs both sides, despite the fact that they feel contradictory and create a (sometimes powerful) tension in him. 


I find the word "slave" has a few definitions, in fact. My Oxford Dictionary and Thesaurus defines slave as:

1. A person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.

2. A person who is strongly influenced or controlled by something.

Listed synonyms are servant, lackey and drudge.


The Webster's Unabridged Dictionary on the old shelf defines slave as:

1. A person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.

2. A person entirely under the domination of some influence or person.

3. A drudge.


I could go on citing other dictionaries and references ad nauseum, but I feel the overall point is clear. Taking the literal, textualist approach, there is room within these definitions to indicate slavery is not defined solely by choiceless, legal terms. If it were so, the thousands of slaves trafficked internationally in our current age would have to be called something else, I'd imagine.

In the consensual context, the term "slave" is indeed often a misnomer in favor of its sensational effect, but that is not always the case. There are individuals who go willingly into servitude, giving up their rights and possessions in order to serve another. They are captured, not by state caste or violence, but captured nonetheless. The door is always there, as they say, but it's not always the easiest threshold to cross for personal, psychological, emotional or situational reasons, and its presence—weak or strong—does not in any way discount the reality that people can be, by consent, strongly controlled by and exist under the dominance of another person; in essence, a servant, drudge or slave.

Not sure if this point is either here or there at this point, but I felt it was worth mentioning, at least.



undergroundsea -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 10:44:53 PM)


By tribute I mean a material offering that is critically required in what is otherwise a personal relationship.

Context matters and creates exceptions to general likelihoods. In general I seek a partner for a romantic BDSM companionship and I object when I perceive a sense of unworthiness attributed to male subs or myself that I find unerotic and disrespectful--be it a statement that I must have skills and perform acts of service in order to earn attention of a domme, or that I must somehow pay for a domme's time. The underlying sentiment I perceive in such a demand is that what I otherwise bring as a person is not enough. If I am not interesting enough to a given person, fair enough. I will then seek compatibility elsewhere rather than pay tribute.

I am also aware that my skills and my financial success are a part of who I am. Still, there is an inappropriate way to go about the matter. To convey my point, a woman knows her sensuality is part of who she is and that a man might have sexual expectations. However, if he brings focus to these traits at the outset and insists on sexual gratification at the outset, it will likely turn her off.

That I object to demands for service skills or demands for tribute in this manner does not mean I do not willingly perform acts of service or do not willingly extend material gestures of good will and appreciation when I am courting or in a relationship. Thus, to equate an objection to tribute to being cheap is an invalid equivalance.

An objection to giving tribute in order to earn time or attention does not translate to an objection against paying for coffee or a meal. I generally practice the latter but not the former.

Similarly, an objection to giving tribute upon first contact or in early stages of becoming acquainted does not translate to an unwillingness to offer control over finances to someone with whom one is in an established relationship.

On subject of paying for coffee or meals, I agree it is a nice, practical gesture that falls within chivalry. I expect that for most people in this discussion this issue does not arise when a relationship begins organically. I do, however, take issue with a sense of entitlement--I do not see it as a duty for men to treat and a right for women to be treated, but as a courtesy or friendly gesture extended by whoever extends this gesture.

I see a double standard at work by women who criticize men who do not treat if they themselves are not willing to even pay their share, let alone treat. And I see this double standard at work when a woman refuses to go on a second date with a man only because he did not treat on the first date.

As for comments by LadyH and Venatrix, I consider an interest in BDSM to be distributed across population. When I hear of a certain trend across a demographic, I wonder if some reasonable explanation exists. Intuitively, I do not see why submissive men would be inherently more cheap than other roles. Intuitively, I do see that they might be more cautious because of the reality that exists. If there are women who cannot grasp why submissive men might be cautious in this manner, it might help to browse profiles of dommes to see what submissive men see.

If it is reasonable for sincere submissive men to be aware that dominant women encounter many who are there to sexually use them and it is wise for the sincere ones to distinguish self from those who sexually use, it is reasonable for dommes to be aware that submissive men encounter many who are there to financially use them and it is wise for sincere ones to distinguish self from those who financially use.

quote:

In genuine bdsm Owner/slave relationships, both parties understand that slavery means ownership, and ownership means having a right to the time and labor of the slave. This legitimate right can be expressed in many ways, through actual work, as I did when I was owned while in school, or to payment of money which we have been calling tribute. I regret if you have not experienced the full joy of slavery. Without it, the rest of all of these activites are just play and play is for those too timid to risk the real thing.


BDSM relationship come in many flavors and they do not all involve slavery.

I disgaree that anything that is different than the level you practice is lesser and comes from timidness. I think there is no one way to do BDSM. Also, a person might not seek the type of dynamic you describe not for sake of timidness, but for sake of a greater balance between masochistic wants and wants for romance, companionship, and family in a manner that fulfills the masochistic and other components of one's psychology. I am not aware of what your ideal dynamic is like and might be incorrectly projecting a given M/s dynamic upon you which has a non-romantic interpersonal distance. Whether or not I am doing so, I think you are projecting your subjective wants and relationship philosophy on others, which does not always hold.

Cheers,

Sea



PeonForHer -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE...THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE" (8/20/2009 2:39:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

I find the word "slave" has a few definitions, in fact. My Oxford Dictionary and Thesaurus defines slave as:

1. A person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.

2. A person who is strongly influenced or controlled by something.

Listed synonyms are servant, lackey and drudge.


The Webster's Unabridged Dictionary on the old shelf defines slave as:

1. A person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.

2. A person entirely under the domination of some influence or person.

3. A drudge.


Thanks for the elucidation, Marc.  I deliberately chose to go with Sense 1 of the OED rather than any of the other senses because those other senses render the term next to useless for current purposes.  Sense 2 of the Oxford comfortably includes everyone who is an employee.  However, since this refers to control by things as well as by people, anyone who can't do without a cigarette, a car - or even a roof, sleep and food - could be considered a slave, too.  Sense 2 of the Webster's - which looks at first slightly stronger - doesn't, in the end, help much:  nearly everyone on the planet is entirely dominated by the desire to stay alive, for instance. 

Given all this, from what's been implied on this thread by some, therefore, all of us should be feeling the joy of being slaves every day of our lives. 




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