RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE".....

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/18/2009 10:03:04 PM)
I'm not excited. LOL. Ok. Seriously, while the comment may have come across the wrong way, I can say that some Dominants do insist that their subs make a contribution to the community. In My service, My boys have helped NLAF, the Shriners, and other organizations at My direction. It may not be something that they had as a priority before, but when they are in service to Me, they recognize that they are part of a larger world.

XYisInferior -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/18/2009 10:07:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse It is equally as tawdry and tasteless when a man expects some sort of return for his investment if he does pay. Agreed. Further, it's not much of a "tribute" at all if he feels he's purchasing Her in any way.

PeonForHer -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 12:36:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer That's just my point, La T. I don't ever want to be thinking in terms of 'returns for my investment', either. It's all tawdry and tasteless. Would this be a bad time for me to confess that I am often tawdry and sometimes tasteless and neither has anything to do with a gift or monitary value? [:D] Yes. When I see pigs regularly flying passenger services from Heathrow Airport, I might just be able to think of you as tawdry and tasteless.

PeonForHer -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 12:41:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact xOk. Seriously, while the comment may have come across the wrong way, I can say that some Dominants do insist that their subs make a contribution to the community. That made me laugh. In a weird sort of way, I quite like that idea.

KockRocket -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 1:12:36 AM)
Yeh sure the OP isn't golddigger look at all the Masters bragging about there fancy tribute cars oh wait only femdommes do that sure am glad not to be a sub. [sm=Groaner.gif]

PeonForHer -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 1:44:20 AM)
First, being a historian, I am constrained to point out that your premise is factually incorrect. Slavery has existed for entirety of human history and is often a conditioned assumed by the individual slave or even whole tribes for their needs, economic (I will be your slave if you feed me) or political (we will be your slaves if you protect us). I don't think history is the source of our disagreement. Rather, it's to do with the definition of the word 'slave'. In the non-BDSM sense of 'slave' I was following the OED's definition, "One who is the property of, and entirely subject to, another person, whether by capture, purchase or birth; a servant completely divested of freedom and personal rights". In that sense there's no choice involved and no condition that can be made with one's owner. A person who's completely divested of freedom and personal rights does not get to say "I will be your slave if you feed me" or "if you protect me". He or she doesn't get to say "I will be your slave if [anything whatsoever]" I regret if you have not experienced the full joy of slavery. Without it, the rest of all of these activites are just play and play is for those too timid to risk the real thing. Seriously, do you envy those people in history (and still, in the present-day) who were enslaved in the non-BDSM sense? Do you think that their lives were and are full of joy? I don't, I have to say. For me, BDSM slavery is a fundamentally different thing. The timidity that most needs to be overcome in order properly to conceive of 'true BDSM slavery' is that which makes some submissives believe that they have to have minds that are free of all contradictory impulses - the one impulse to master his world, to use his freedom to strive for what he enjoys; the other, to submit and feel dominated by another person. A submissive needs both sides, despite the fact that they feel contradictory and create a (sometimes powerful) tension in him. But the answer isn't to try to eliminate that tension, even if that were possible. The answer is to embrace it. It boils down to this: I think that there is a 'full joy of slavery' to be experienced, if a sub is lucky enough - but the part of the sub that can experience that joy is the part that is free to do so, and uses his power to give up his power, in order to do so.

thishereboi -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 3:43:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SmartStrongSub First, being a historian, I am constrained to point out that your premise is factually incorrect. Slavery has existed for entirety of human history and is often a conditioned assumed by the individual slave or even whole tribes for their needs, economic (I will be your slave if you feed me) or political (we will be your slaves if you protect us). This may not seem inheirently fair but it is a reality of the human condition and when one considers the fact that both parties obtain the benefit they chose it becomes clearer taht there is nothing unfair about it. In the old law books, employment law is referred to as "Master/Servant" law. Is it unfair that a senior partner in a law firm (the Master) takes home money earned by a lowly associate attorney (the Servant)? Doesn't the partner have an ownership interest in the money earned by his associate? Isn't that a nice way of saying he owns the time and labor of the associate? Does it matter if it is a condition compelled by the associates school debts? As for bdsm slavery, in my experience, the male slave surrenders himself to the Female because of his needs, those being his natural desires for Her leadership, Her discipline, and Her femininity. In exchange, he agrees to become Her slave, subject to Her direction and control, and owned by Her! If one owns a vinyard does one not get the grapes it produces? If one owns a machine or truck, does one not get the rental value for its use? In genuine bdsm Owner/slave relationships, both parties understand that slavery means ownership, and ownership means having a right to the time and labor of the slave. This legitimate right can be expressed in many ways, through actual work, as I did when I was owned while in school, or to payment of money which we have been calling tribute. I regret if you have not experienced the full joy of slavery. Without it, the rest of all of these activites are just play and play is for those too timid to risk the real thing. So if I am understanding you right, unless as a slave I turn over all my money and possesions, I am not a real slave? Is that what your saying? What about those slaves that do not feel the need to live up to your expectations? If there Mistresses are happy with them are they still just playing? What if the Mistress does not like dealing with the finances and turns it all over to her slave? Do that make her a true slave?

NoreenSwan -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 6:43:47 AM)
Well now, you should relax and not be so defensive about the subject of submission. if you only play a subby in bed good for you. I'm sure SmartStrongSub can handle it and doesn't really care one way or the other. Take a deep breath because he didn't jump to define you or the way you play as right or wrong. Have a glass of wine. It'll relax you and open you up and stuff like that.

NoreenSwan -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 6:47:28 AM)
Even if she were happy about material possessions from her sub boy, umm, who cares? How does that devalue you personally? The fact that someone loves material possessions doesn't take anything away from you or how much you resources you have or are able to ever have in your life. It's just one person's preference and says nothing about you. I'm sure you like things other people don't and I bet they can handle that without getting bent out of shape. People are different and so it goes.

SmartStrongSub -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 7:43:11 AM)
If one desires to experience the mysterious joys of a bdsm Owner/slave relationship, one has to be prepared to embrace the realities of that trasfer of power and control. The more limits one places on the relationship, the less authentic and less complete the experience. The more one surrenders, the more one genuinely experiences and more fully enjoys the dynamic. quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: SmartStrongSub First, being a historian, I am constrained to point out that your premise is factually incorrect. Slavery has existed for entirety of human history and is often a conditioned assumed by the individual slave or even whole tribes for their needs, economic (I will be your slave if you feed me) or political (we will be your slaves if you protect us). This may not seem inheirently fair but it is a reality of the human condition and when one considers the fact that both parties obtain the benefit they chose it becomes clearer taht there is nothing unfair about it. In the old law books, employment law is referred to as "Master/Servant" law. Is it unfair that a senior partner in a law firm (the Master) takes home money earned by a lowly associate attorney (the Servant)? Doesn't the partner have an ownership interest in the money earned by his associate? Isn't that a nice way of saying he owns the time and labor of the associate? Does it matter if it is a condition compelled by the associates school debts? As for bdsm slavery, in my experience, the male slave surrenders himself to the Female because of his needs, those being his natural desires for Her leadership, Her discipline, and Her femininity. In exchange, he agrees to become Her slave, subject to Her direction and control, and owned by Her! If one owns a vinyard does one not get the grapes it produces? If one owns a machine or truck, does one not get the rental value for its use? In genuine bdsm Owner/slave relationships, both parties understand that slavery means ownership, and ownership means having a right to the time and labor of the slave. This legitimate right can be expressed in many ways, through actual work, as I did when I was owned while in school, or to payment of money which we have been calling tribute. I regret if you have not experienced the full joy of slavery. Without it, the rest of all of these activites are just play and play is for those too timid to risk the real thing. So if I am understanding you right, unless as a slave I turn over all my money and possesions, I am not a real slave? Is that what your saying? What about those slaves that do not feel the need to live up to your expectations? If there Mistresses are happy with them are they still just playing? What if the Mistress does not like dealing with the finances and turns it all over to her slave? Do that make her a true slave?

SmartStrongSub -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 7:56:04 AM)
Slavery has existed forever in many forms and most of those have been truly unenviable for the slave. However, personal slavery has also existed historically in relationships that were mutually beneficial and emotionally rewarding. That is what we seek to replicate in bdsm slavery and the more completely one surrenders the more fully one enjoys the relationship. quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer First, being a historian, I am constrained to point out that your premise is factually incorrect. Slavery has existed for entirety of human history and is often a conditioned assumed by the individual slave or even whole tribes for their needs, economic (I will be your slave if you feed me) or political (we will be your slaves if you protect us). I don't think history is the source of our disagreement. Rather, it's to do with the definition of the word 'slave'. In the non-BDSM sense of 'slave' I was following the OED's definition, "One who is the property of, and entirely subject to, another person, whether by capture, purchase or birth; a servant completely divested of freedom and personal rights". In that sense there's no choice involved and no condition that can be made with one's owner. A person who's completely divested of freedom and personal rights does not get to say "I will be your slave if you feed me" or "if you protect me". He or she doesn't get to say "I will be your slave if [anything whatsoever]" I regret if you have not experienced the full joy of slavery. Without it, the rest of all of these activites are just play and play is for those too timid to risk the real thing. Seriously, do you envy those people in history (and still, in the present-day) who were enslaved in the non-BDSM sense? Do you think that their lives were and are full of joy? I don't, I have to say. For me, BDSM slavery is a fundamentally different thing. The timidity that most needs to be overcome in order properly to conceive of 'true BDSM slavery' is that which makes some submissives believe that they have to have minds that are free of all contradictory impulses - the one impulse to master his world, to use his freedom to strive for what he enjoys; the other, to submit and feel dominated by another person. A submissive needs both sides, despite the fact that they feel contradictory and create a (sometimes powerful) tension in him. But the answer isn't to try to eliminate that tension, even if that were possible. The answer is to embrace it. It boils down to this: I think that there is a 'full joy of slavery' to be experienced, if a sub is lucky enough - but the part of the sub that can experience that joy is the part that is free to do so, and uses his power to give up his power, in order to do so.

Andalusite -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 8:11:19 AM)
BoiJen and KockRocket, not all BDSM slaves are expected to turn their money or posessions over, but some do, including female slaves with male masters. There are a lot of vanilla women who turn over their paycheck or other money to their husband, even without any formal D/s interaction. For that matter, there are quite a few vanilla guys who mooch off of their girlfriends. RedMagic, I think you went off on SmartStrongSub a little unfairly. Like LadyPact said, some people require it in their relationships. It doesn't mean he didn't care about society or anything, just that she either asked or inspired him to get more involved. I have given time and money to various programs and organizations I'm involved in or causes I believe in, donate blood a couple of times a year, and try to keep extra water/snacks/cheap blankets/etc. in the car to give to homeless people when I see them. If my Master had a specific cause that he was focused on and wanted me to pitch in, or if he made me accountable to do more of it, I would do more - not out of sexual arousal per se, but because he was putting my focus there. Ok, with all this focus on giving stuff, I couldn't resist writing a little parody: On the twelfth date from CM, My submissive gave to me Twelve longstemmed roses, Eleven clothespins for pinching, Ten lines of poetry, Nine lap dances, Eight hours a-cleaning, Seven songs on CD, Six feet a-rubbings, Five cock rings, Four calling cards, Three French kisses, Two turtle caramels, And a cup of Starbucks coffee!

PeonForHer -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 10:09:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NoreenSwan Well now, you should relax and not be so defensive about the subject of submission. if you only play a subby in bed good for you. I'm sure SmartStrongSub can handle it and doesn't really care one way or the other. Take a deep breath because he didn't jump to define you or the way you play as right or wrong. Have a glass of wine. It'll relax you and open you up and stuff like that. But SSS did seek to define thishereboi: According to him, there are those who subscribe to his definition of 'slavery' and then there are those who merely 'play' at it. As he puts it: In genuine bdsm Owner/slave relationships, both parties understand that slavery means ownership, and ownership means having a right to the time and labor of the slave. This legitimate right can be expressed in many ways, through actual work, as I did when I was owned while in school, or to payment of money which we have been calling tribute. I regret if you have not experienced the full joy of slavery. Without it, the rest of all of these activites are just play and play is for those too timid to risk the real thing.

NoreenSwan -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 10:35:27 AM)
Stop nit-picking. Calm down. No need to be so threatened. He makes good arguments, doesn't he? Yeah, you can't deny that. Maybe that's really the issue. He's obviously here in good faith. If you are mature enough and semi-intelligent you can see he's not a troll telling everyone his way should be followed by everyone. He makes good arguments and so what if he feels a deep appreciation and passion for consensual slavery and feels part-time BDSM play isn't real power dynamic exchanges. I mean, you have your opinions too, right?

Lockit -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 10:56:33 AM)
I met my last husband while working to help society and we continued until my health prevented it. I left my first husband leaving him everything, house and all it's contents and only asked to keep a two hundred and fifty dollar item because his ex had taken everything before me and I didn't want to hurt him like that again. I have remodeled one's boat and house, including paying for it all, working on it and making him a rock bathroom and I paid off his truck besides the many other smaller gifts I gave him and how I helped him in legal cases and all sorts of things. I have bought jewlery, clothing, music and the things that played music. There have been many things I have gifted men with. Not for any other reason that it made me happy to see them happy and surprised. I see nothing wrong with anyone giving because they are a giver or because they care or they love to see the happy face of another. I nursed one through a broken back. I have nursed some through mental and emotional health issues or through the loss of a loved one or lack of employment etc. So we think that giving is a one way street with dominant's? That all we do is take? That all we want to do is take? That kinky sex or our dominance has a price? Have I flaunted the rings I have been given or the expensive blouse or toys or going places? Maybe... but if I flaunted anything it was to show off not the item or deed... but the MAN. When we make such a big deal out of all of this it is a little worrisom for me. There is such attitude about it all. Some of it pretty anal. If we are that afraid of being taken.... think that someone is worth only what they can give that has a $$$ worth and cannot stop to think that in a relationship, especially one of long standing... that gifts really mean something other than love, care and only go one way... and for christmas or birthdays they do not receive anything... I think we are a very sick society of people. When we clump everyone else up with the majority... when there is only one way to give a gift and only one reason... when we judge the dynamic's of other happy people... it all just turns my stomach. When people and dynamic's boil down to $$$...it is a very sad thing. The fear and anger brought out on this topic is a real eye opener... and a sad one. I am thankful that I don't live this way and am sorry that I might feel some judgement of those that do.

thishereboi -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 10:57:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NoreenSwan Well now, you should relax and not be so defensive about the subject of submission. if you only play a subby in bed good for you. I'm sure SmartStrongSub can handle it and doesn't really care one way or the other. Take a deep breath because he didn't jump to define you or the way you play as right or wrong. Have a glass of wine. It'll relax you and open you up and stuff like that. Such a condescending little post, where do I begin. I asked someone to clarify their post. If you have a problem with that, please by all means block me.

PeonForHer -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 11:09:01 AM)
Eh? Well, thanks for your observations on my psychological state, Noreen. Even if they were correct, though, I'd still be a little puzzled as to why you think they're relevant. Whatever. Getting back to the subject: In the section of SSS's post that I quoted in my last post, do you, or do you not, think he was implying that there are those who subscribe to his definition of 'slavery', while others who don't subscribe to it are merely 'playing at' slavery?

NoreenSwan -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 11:10:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: NoreenSwan Well now, you should relax and not be so defensive about the subject of submission. if you only play a subby in bed good for you. I'm sure SmartStrongSub can handle it and doesn't really care one way or the other. Take a deep breath because he didn't jump to define you or the way you play as right or wrong. Have a glass of wine. It'll relax you and open you up and stuff like that. Such a condescending little post, where do I begin. I asked someone to clarify their post. If you have a problem with that, please by all means block me. Of course you would see it in a negative way, it's your way it seems often on here. No, I don't want to block you. I feel alright about you disagreeing with me and I am okay if you yell at me. It's not a big deal. I only concerned if I offended you and I'm sorry if this is how it is so. But I just want you to know you don't have to get defensive or feel threatened and start to come off as mad in replies. I really think you just don't like his perspective on consensual slavery and D/s relationships and that's really why you are defensive and nit picking. He really does not come across as hostile, unlike red and yours comments which seemed out of context in the level of excitement the comments reached. I'm sorry you and him couldn't understand the context his argument was couched in but I think it's clear to everyone SmartStrongSub is a respecting, intelligent poster, here in good faith and he writes in a very non-confrontational way and does not get personal. That's a good skill. But really I think everyone knows yours opinions are yours and if you don't like the practice of slavery or full time D/s relationship well then fine, that still doesn't impact someone else's reality who believes differently. And so, their opinions on how things should be, is just that, their opinion and that should have no bearing on you or what you like to do. The world is big enough to handle different strokes in folks. Don't be so defensive and threatened because someone makes a good argument that you don't agree with. He can feel his way is best as you can feel your way is the best. It doesn't matter and doesn't affect the other if they can be open and secure in their own positions and other people's differences.

PeonForHer -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 11:13:48 AM)
Thishereboi, It's a standard trick. The way to 'win an argument' is to ignore what one's opponent is saying and just cast aspersions on his/her mental state instead. It's got to be done subtly, though . . . (note, Noreen!)

NoreenSwan -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/19/2009 11:15:02 AM)
Nice try. Spinner. You want to devalue everything I said because you can't handle it.

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