RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/13/2009 5:47:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


An interesting take on the subject:

Midas Muffler, Not Canada is the Model for Health Care Reform
By Robert Weissberg
August 12, 2009

Empathy aside, ObamaCare is an extravagant, wasteful, overly bureaucratized answer to a quandary for which a less costly and more efficient solution that already exists. This solution is, moreover, totally capitalistic, requires minimal government funding, entails no life-or-death decisions made by faceless bureaucrats, nor will it transform the US medicine into bumbling, British-style Socialism-Lite. Though hardly a miracle panacea, it is way ahead of what is on today's Congressional menu.

This solution is "Convenient Care" or, more colloquially, Doc-in-a-Box, since facilities often resemble box-like fast food restaurants. It consists of no-appointment walk-in medical offices with extended hours (including evenings and weekends) with a small staff treating commonplace illnesses. A nurse practitioner runs it, though under a physician's supervision.

...

Convenient care dates from 2000, and use has exploded. That legislators and well-paid healthcare experts have no need for such prompt, cheap services may help explain its invisibility in today's debate. These clinics are represented by a national trade association -- the Convenient Care Association -- and one industry market research firm estimated their number to be 1,200 in 2008 and predicted that this would increase to 2,400 with revenues of $2 billion by 2013.

...

Everybody benefits. Consumers can get their sinusitis, bronchitis, throat infections, urinary tract infections and multiple other bothersome illnesses treated quickly, cheaply at a nearby strip mall or corner Walgreens. Meanwhile small facilities boost walk-in traffic that often bring sales elsewhere in the store.

...

This is free enterprise heaven. That profits come from performing thousands of small services means intense pressure to improve efficiency, while price transparency will make savvy medical shopping akin to buying meat and potato commodities.

...

Moreover, as our examples suggest, convenient care may address two problems that have traditionally perplexed today's medical system -- prevention and follow-up.




Lots of more detailed information in the full article. This was just a taste.

Firm



I am quite familiar with dox in a box. Myrtle Beach has a run on them. Many were quite good. didnt take long to figure out who not to see. and while the cost is better than an ER, having to come up with 100 dollars when you only bring home 290 is rough.

They also are not on any hospital staff, no admitting priveledges, so you get carted to the ER in an ambulance and the hospital treats you like any other emergent patient.

Another problem noted with them, they tend to close up shop and move in the middle of the night, it seems. open friday, monday, a closed sign permanently placed.

what people need is a doctor for preventative care. while a Doc in a box is great when you are on vacation, their offie hours are typically day time only and they only treat the emergency.




Brain -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/13/2009 6:13:15 PM)

Gordon Brown 'tweets' in defense of health care

LONDON (AP) — Prime Minister Gordon Brown has joined thousands of Britons in an online campaign to defend his country's health care service against U.S. Republican attacks.

Opponents of President Obama's health care plan have taken aim at the U.K. in an effort to discredit his proposals, saying he seeks to turn the U.S. system into a government-run regime similar to the one run by Britain's National Health Service, or NHS. But the attacks have hit a nerve here, where the population largely takes its cradle-to-grave coverage for granted and looks askance at the millions of Americans living without health insurance. Britons have flocked to Twitter to defend their country's health system, making

"We Love the NHS" one of the micro-blogging sites most popular terms.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-08-13-gordon-brown-tweets_N.htm?csp=34


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

FR

Actually a huge issue in the UK at the moment was Palins rather melodramatic claim that the British system of NHS is 'evil' with a wonderful ad over there in the US which uses British peoples opinions without actually having informed them about what their opinions would be used for. I actually think that though there are flaws in our system, such as waiting list, free health care for all is a damn good idea, and I would not enjoy having the US system. It is funny because I will be the first to complain about the problems we have but us Brits seem to have taken a bit of a 'no one hits my younger brother but me' attitude in response to the wonderfully pragmatic words of Palin.


Yep, I agree with you on that one. Whilst I am NOT a fan of the UK health care system (as simply in Germany we don't really have waiting times, we call the specialist ourselves when we get referred or can refer us ourselves without needing a referal from the GP and therefore also have a choice from whom we want to have an opinion instead of waiting for a letter for an appointment and then waiting and see whom we have to put up with over here. If the specialist does not give us as fast an appointment as we wish to have one we just call another specialist to see if s/he has an earlier appointment available; we also don't need to be registered at a GP in our area and can just go to any GP, not to mention the post code lottery over here in regards to what level of cancer treatment you are going to receive), nevertheless I also would not enjoy having the US system. My heartbeat is currently attached a lot to go back home, as over here I miss the health care system in Germany a lot.

However, that being said, compared to how it is done in the US, the british system is surely a better option.





kittinSol -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/13/2009 6:20:27 PM)

The World Health Organisation named the French healthcare system the best in the world - yet, it is never mentioned in the current healthcare debate in America.

I wonder why [8|] .

quote:


It's physician-rich, boasting one doctor for approximately every 430 people, compared with a doctor for every1,230 residents in the U.S. (and French docs tend to charge significantly less). The average life expectancy is two years longer than the U.S. And while the system is one of the most expensive in the world, costing $3,500 per person, it's far less than the $6,100 spend per capita in the U.S.

I've had a unique opportunity to see both systems up close and personal: I had breast cancer in California nine years ago and a recurrence in Paris this year. I received excellent care in both places, though looking back now my California oncologist's office was a bit of a meat market — always packed with patients, from the seemingly not-so-sick to some a step from the grave — a time-consuming disadvantage of living in a much larger country with a lower doctor-to-patient ratio.

My French doctors and nurses have been sensitive, skillful, caring — and not so harried.
But the biggest difference has been money.


http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Story?id=4647483&page=1




blacksword404 -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/13/2009 6:58:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

The World Health Organisation named the French healthcare system the best in the world - yet, it is never mentioned in the current healthcare debate in America.

I wonder why [8|] .



Oh we don't like frogs. I thought you knew. [;)]




kittinSol -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/13/2009 7:02:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

The World Health Organisation named the French healthcare system the best in the world - yet, it is never mentioned in the current healthcare debate in America.

I wonder why [8|] .



Oh we don't like frogs. I thought you knew. [;)]


Are you hitting on me again, blacksword :-) ?




Brain -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/13/2009 7:04:57 PM)

White House uses e-mail to counter health critics

By ERICA WERNER, Associated Press Writer Erica Werner, Associated Press Writer – 4 mins ago

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama's push to revamp health care got a boost Thursday as a new coalition of drug makers, unions, hospitals and others launched a $12 million pro-overhaul ad campaign. Meanwhile, the administration sought to regain control of the health care debate by asking supporters to forward a chain e-mail to counter criticism that's circulating on the Internet.

The e-mail by White House senior adviser David Axelrod offers reasons to support Obama's agenda — and myths to debunk.

Axelrod wrote that opponents are relying on tactics including "viral e-mails that fly unchecked and under the radar, spreading all sorts of lies."

"So let's start a chain e-mail of our own," he said, inviting supporters to forward a message countering claims that Obama's plans would lead to rationing, encourage euthanasia or deplete veterans' health care.

The new ad airing in a dozen states is being paid for by a new coalition called Americans for Stable Quality Care. Members of the group are Families USA, the Service Employees International Union, the drug lobby Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, the American Medical Association and the Federation of American Hospitals.

The ad shows a series of photos of doctors and nurses interacting with patients as the narrator asks: "What does health insurance reform mean for you? It means you can't be denied coverage for a pre-existing condition, or dropped if you get sick." The ad also cites lowered costs and a focus on prevention, among other things.

Even as public skepticism over Democrats' health overhaul plans boils over at town hall meetings nationwide, the ad is the latest example of the odd-bedfellows help that Obama is getting in his plea to Congress to enact comprehensive legislation to lower costs and extend coverage to the nearly 50 million uninsured.

"This is really focused on what has been an increasing emphasis for almost all supporters of health care reform, namely trying to make sure families around the country understand the benefits of health reform for them — especially middle-class families that already do have health insurance," said Ron Pollack, executive director of Families USA, a liberal advocacy group

Pollack said that supporters who've been focused on the legislative process in Congress need to turn their attention to public opinion, which has been slipping as conservative activists fuel fears of rationing and government control.

"We have a job now to do to have facts catch up with the myths," Pollack said.

Families USA, the drug makers, the 2-million-member union and the AMA also were involved in an earlier effort called Health Economy Now that ran ads supporting a health overhaul as a way to improve the economy.

For PhRMA, the ads are a piece of a larger effort that could reach $150 million or above through the fall. Drug makers and other groups stand to gain if millions more people gain access to insurance.

The new ads are running for two weeks in Arkansas, Alaska, Colorado, Indiana, Louisiana, Nebraska, Nevada, South Dakota, Montana, North Dakota, Maine and Virginia, home to moderate Democrats who would be crucial to passage of any health care legislation.

Separately, the pro-overhaul group Health Care for America Now announced a $200,000 expansion of an ad campaign targeting specific lawmakers and asking them to support health legislation.

Health Care for America Now is targeting several moderate Democratic House members who have voted against health legislation or expressed skepticism about it — Reps. Jason Altmire of Pennsylvania, Stephanie Herseth Sandlin of South Dakota and Rick Boucher of Virginia. Also targeted by the ads are Sens. Jeff Bingaman, D-N.M., and Thomas Carper, D-Del.

On the other side, the group Conservatives for Patients' Rights announced it will run TV and print ads in Bozeman, Mont., and Grand Junction, Colo., to coincide with Obama town halls in those cities on Friday and Saturday. The ads urge opposition to a new public insurance plan supported by Obama that would compete with private insurers.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090814/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_health_care




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/13/2009 7:27:21 PM)

quote:

French healthcare system


*nods* After looking over many options, I'll be honest that the French system was the one that seemed closest to what I'd call my "Utopia Healthcare System".

DC




Brain -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/13/2009 7:45:36 PM)

Health Reform and Small Business

A vast majority of small businesses and their workers are likely to benefit greatly. They should be supporting, not opposing, reform.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/13/opinion/13thu1.html?_r=1&th&emc=th





kittinSol -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/13/2009 8:00:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

French healthcare system


*nods* After looking over many options, I'll be honest that the French system was the one that seemed closest to what I'd call my "Utopia Healthcare System".

DC


Quite. And that was the question I wanted to ask at the Obama town hall meeting I attended two days ago: why is the French system never considered? (I wasn't picked - I wasn't enough of an apparatchik [8D]).





Brain -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/13/2009 8:05:34 PM)

Gunning for Health Care

Thanks to the health care protests over the past week, the nation seems to have come to a fragile consensus on a few critical issues. For instance, government-run death panels — not good. And, Nazis — nobody likes them.

Interestingly, we do not have any agreement at all on the question of whether it is a good plan to bring a gun to a gathering of angry and overwrought people. To be honest, I thought we might be able to nail this one down.
But no.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/13/opinion/13collins.html?th&emc=th




kittinSol -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/13/2009 8:07:39 PM)

It made my heart pound when I saw that three quarters of my face had been broadcasted live on CNN.




Brain -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/13/2009 8:22:14 PM)

10 Steps to Better Health Care

By Atul Gawande, Donald Berwick, Elliott Fisher and Mark McClellan

WE have reached a sobering point in our national health-reform debate. Americans have recognized that our health system is bankrupting us and that we have dealt with this by letting the system price more and more people out of health care. So we are trying to decide if we are willing to change — willing to ensure that everyone can have coverage. That means banishing the phrase “pre-existing condition.” It also means finding ways to pay for coverage for those who can’t afford it without help……………………………… ….………………………………........................................................................................

In studying communities all over America, we have found evidence that more effective, lower-cost care is possible.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/13/opinion/13gawande.html?th&emc=th


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Every now and then I like to stop tearing things down and try to build them up, just for the change. Now the topic is health care. And the big question seems to be "Do we go with Obama's plan or leave things as they are?" Let's change that question: How would you (anyone, please) alter the current health care system in order to decrease costs, increase accessibility and generally stop the medical care finances from being controlled by HMO's who make more money denying care than providing it?

Can we come up with some GOOD ideas?







Brain -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/13/2009 8:36:12 PM)

'Death to Obama' Sign Holder Detained

By DAVID DISHNEAU,
AP
posted: 1 HOUR 14 MINUTES AGO
comments: 2162

HAGERSTOWN, Md. (Aug. 13) -- The Secret Service is investigating a man who authorities said held a sign reading "Death to Obama" outside a town hall meeting on health-care reform in western Maryland.
The sign also read, "Death to Michelle and her two stupid kids," referring to the first name of President Barack Obama's wife, said Washington County Sheriff's Capt. Peter Lazich.

http://news.aol.com/article/man-holding-death-to-obama-sign/617150




InvisibleBlack -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/13/2009 8:46:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Every now and then I like to stop tearing things down and try to build them up, just for the change. Now the topic is health care. And the big question seems to be "Do we go with Obama's plan or leave things as they are?" Let's change that question: How would you (anyone, please) alter the current health care system in order to decrease costs, increase accessibility and generally stop the medical care finances from being controlled by HMO's who make more money denying care than providing it?

Can we come up with some GOOD ideas?


 
I'll take a stab at this. I rarely comment on healthcare because it's extremely difficult to have any sort of rational conversation about it.
 
A little background - I worked for several years running the data operations department of a not-for profit HMO in New York. The company was dedicated to providing free or subsidized healthcare to people who were ineligible for Medicaid but were unable to afford insurance, or adequate insurance.
 
The sad fact of the matter is - the healthcare industry is extremely inefficient. The insurance companies are inefficient, the hospitals are inefficient, the doctors are inefficient ... it's amazing. I also spent some time working for a defense contractor and I can tell you, in my experience, the defense industry is more efficient and has less waste than the healthcare industry. You cannot believe the waste, the excess, the money that is just plain squandered until you've seen it.
 
As I recall, last year one of the big think tanks did an analysis of waste in the healthcare industry. I'd post a link but I don't remember where the report was located. The United States spent something like 2.2 trillion dollars on health care in 2008. The two highest sources of waste, both of which came to something like ten percent of the cost, were doctors performing unnecessary tests and inefficiencies in the claims system (valid claims being denied and having to be redone, often repeatedly - processing of invalid or fraudulent claims, etc.). So, looking at that, approximately 220 billion dollars a year is spent on unnecessary tests and another 220 billion dollars a year is spent processing unnecessary claims.
 
A number of the things that people clamor about - such as uninsured people using the emergency room as a 'free' doctor account for something like one-half of one percent of the total cost. While that's still 11 billion dollars, that's a drop in the bucket compared to the more serious areas.
 
In all honesty, before doing anything else - I would knock down the top 2 areas. I haven't put much thought into how to prevent doctors from assigning unnecessary tests (the two drivers for this are a) it's a way to make more money & b) fear of litigation). Unnecessary claims, however - I *have* done work on since I ran the group that was assigned to trying to improve the workflow for the claims department.
 
The vast majority of claims are rejected because they are improperly filled out. Most of the claims processing is done electronically, meaning that no human being is involved - so if a required field is empty, the claim will automatically be rejected. Quite often, doctor's offices will simply take all their rejected claims and re-submit them without changing anything - meaning something may get rejected two or three times before it's actually revised for errors. The fact that every insurance company has its own unique claim form doesn't help. New York State was attempting to standardize the claim form but what I would suggest is, if the Federal government wants to get involved - a simple, easy to use, single claim form which is required throughout the United States would serve to eliminate a huge number of errors. Beyond that, an incentive needs to be created to properly fill out a claim. The company I worked offered to send someone to any member doctor's office to help train their staff in how to properly fill out a claim so it would not be rejected due to a processing error and fewer than 1% of the doctors were willing to allow their staff to be trained. Having some sort of sliding scale of fees or compensation based on the percentage of claims rejected for being invalid would also go a long way to helping this.
 
I mean, think about this, we're talking 220 billion dollars a year in unnecessary claims processing.
 
Beyond that, though, and to be really extreme ... the problem isn't about insurance at all. That's the box that the industry has most people trapped in. Originally, the only purpose to having insurance was to cover a person if some catastrophic problem arose that would wipe out their life's savings or be so expensive they would be unable to pay. Things like prescription medication or doctor's visits or whatever were not covered by insurance and were paid out of pocket.
 
The problem is not that so many people cannot afford or do not have health insurance, the real problem is that too many people cannot afford the cost of medical care. If the average family made enough money that they could cover the basic cost of medical care, then the issue of "being able to afford insurance" wouldn't really be an issue. The cost of "classic" health insurance - the kind that only covers you if your medical costs are extremely high, in the thousands of dollars, is not very much since such instances are uncommon.
 
Medical care has become unaffordable to the average person. If something is rising in price, it's pretty much supply and demand. Either there is insufficient supply or too much demand. So you either need more doctors, nurses and hospitals or you need people to need medical care less - or both.
 
A simple example would be allowing someone to be certified to perform basic procedures without going the entire process to be a nurse or a physician. What typically is done during an annual check-up (blood pressure, temperature, checking for basic signs like swollen lymph nodes, etc.) does not require an M.D. to perform. EMT's perform much more complicated (and often critical) medical procedures with much less training. T come up with some moderate or intermediate levels of medical certification and a sort of 'tiered' or 'gated' method of getting access to more experienced healthcare practitioners would likely both increase the supply of medical personnel and reduce the demand on the more highly trained ones.
 
Likewise, one of the reasons that the United States fares less well than other nations in these "life-span" or "health care" comparisons is due to the fact that, on average, Americans live less healthy than many other people do. Even given completely equal medical care, Americans would still have lower lifespans, etc. simply due to the greater propensity for obesity, lack of adequate exercise, etc. If people were more concerned about their health, the demand for healthcare would go down.
I'm going to stop now since this is becoming quite an essay. [;)]




kittinSol -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/13/2009 8:51:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

'Death to Obama' Sign Holder Detained



The people who were protesting outside the meeting weren't protesting health care reform. They had no clue about health care reform. They just hated the fact they lost the election.

They also loathed the fact that Obama was now President of the United States of America - many of these people can't fathom that they have a black president. I'm not sure how to educate them, but they sure as hell need some quick education. The quicker the better.




Brain -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/13/2009 8:51:42 PM)

Survey Finds High Fees Common in Medical Care

By GINA KOLATA
Published: August 11, 2009

A patient in Illinois was charged $12,712 for cataract surgery. Medicare pays $675 for the
same procedure. In California, a patient was charged $20,120 for a knee operation that Medicare pays $584 for. And a New Jersey patient was charged $72,000 for a spinal fusion procedure that Medicare covers for $1,629.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/12/health/policy/12insure.html?th&emc=th




Mercnbeth -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/14/2009 6:59:24 AM)

quote:

In 1974, the great Nobel laureate economist Milton Friedman said:

“The two chief enemies of the free society or free enterprise are intellectuals on the one hand and businessmen on the other, for opposite reasons. Every intellectual believes in freedom for himself, but he’s opposed to freedom for others.…He thinks…there ought to be a central planning board that will establish social priorities.…The businessmen are just the opposite -- every businessman is in favor of freedom for everybody else, but when it comes to himself that’s a different question. He’s always the special case. He ought to get special privileges from the government, a tariff, this, that, and the other thing.”

Sounds like 2009. The alliance of paternalistic intellectuals that want to force Americans to do what’s good for them and big business interests that want guaranteed profits comes together in what I believe will be the centerpiece of “bipartisan” health care reform: the individual mandate.

The major new government controls that Democrats insist upon would prohibit insurance companies from excluding pre-existing conditions and from risk-adjusting their premiums. On their own, those regulations would destroy all but the largest insurance companies with the deepest risk pools, and would send premiums skyrocketing, as we’ve seen in states that adopted these measures.

So the insurance companies will insist on, and probably receive, an individual health insurance mandate that will make it illegal not to buy their products. The penalty for violating the mandate will be a sizable new tax, or garnishing your wages. This, also, is already in the Obamacare bill. (Actually, it’s already the law in Massachusetts, thanks to the “Romneycare” law, and an utter failure)

President Obama beat Hillary Clinton in part by opposing such a mandate, but now he supports it
.
DISJOINTED LINK POST




Musicmystery -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/14/2009 7:19:46 AM)

The best way to do this from a simple financial standpoint would be to dismantle the existing system and start over. That's never going to happen, so we're going to have a less efficient and cumbersome hodge-podge of private and public providers. It's political reality.

Why is the Mass. system a failure? It actually works pretty well--until the right started claiming it didn't, without providing any argument to support the claim.

Economic reality is that our current system costs us dearly in emergency care and ever-rising costs, and at the expense of health care for a fifth of our citizens, and of people who have health insurance suddenly finding themselves without it due to insurance company loopholes about paying just when those people need their insurance the most--insurance they've been paying for.

We have to do this, and it will ultimately prevent an economic meltdown of health care.




Archer -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/14/2009 7:26:19 AM)

Step 1 define the actual problem you seek to solve
Step 2 remove the legal aliens from the problem, the immigration requirements should be that they be able to provide for their own healthcare.
Step 3 remove the illegal aliens from the problem sorry but their healthcare really is a separate problem.
Step 4 remove the folks listed as uninsured who are making above the median income level who are uninsured by choice.

Now we have the problem of the citizens of the US who have a problem paying for healthcare.
I'm all for solving this problem. The number has been whittled down to about 8-12 million people a far cry from the 46 million that includes the above groups.

So solution step #1 Make all health insurance pre tax dollars the same way company provided insurance is treated now.

Solution step #2 remove mandated coverages let the insurance company and the customers decide what coverages are needed
A 60 year old woman post hysterectomy doesn't need coverage for pregnancy, yet many states mandate that every policy include it. (Silly)

Solution Step #3 Allow for nation wide shopping for health insurance Why is it not legal for a person in Georgia to buy a health insurance policy available in Virginia?
(hint State Insurance regulators don't want to give up their power)

Solution Step #4 Medical Tort Reform and malpractice insurance regulation. Defensive medical practice wastes billions every year.


Edited to add

Solution Step #5 Institute assigned risk health insurance the same way they have for auto coverage for folks who have pre existing conditions. Want to write health insurance, you get X% of the folks who are in the asigned risk pool.







Mercnbeth -> RE: Health Care: A Better Idea (8/14/2009 7:34:53 AM)

quote:

Why is the Mass. system a failure? It actually works pretty well--until the right started claiming it didn't, without providing any argument to support the claim.
As a businessman who pays for my employees health coverage and as a person who believes in personal accountability which, in the case of a MA type program would require every individual to buy insurance, and as a pragmatist who things that it is incumbent for any business, including health insurance companies, to provide access to their product; I don't think it is. (That is a VERY cumbersome compound sentence!)

It also serves another one of my pet issues; it does not create a government bureaucracy or access gate-keeper. However, it also explains why the Administration would not be in favor of such a plan. They see government as the first and best solution. I see it as the worst case option. As an example of why I feel that way, I'll reference the President's position; citing the Post Office (a government entity) as a bad example of a similar service being provided by private sector entities such as UPS and FedEx. Maybe if the President followed the logic of his own position, he'd also back off pushing for this boondoggle.




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