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RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 7:51:36 AM

Lucylastic

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Me too Lilly, no matter what, I have an MRI booked for thursday, i only had to wait for three weeks....and its not gonna affect my budget. Im stressed purely for wondering what is gonna turn up, not how to pay for it or being denied insurance in the future
Im not gonna respond anymore, feeding paranoia and stereotypes is more than I want to deal with today.
Lucy

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Post #: 61

RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 7:53:50 AM

FullCircle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
So as dictator you would also round everyone up and make them live in the ghetto of your choosing?

NHS hospitals are located in terms of the needs of a population, not driven by financial considerations.

In this respect it couldn't be fairer: each hospital built with a certain catchment as set out by government legislation not private initiative.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 8/15/2009 7:55:49 AM >

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RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 7:54:49 AM

Sanity

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You have to follow the thread back to understand it, I am giving FC a good teasing is all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

What dictator sanity what are you talking about?

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Post #: 63

RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 7:57:22 AM

Aneirin

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From: Tamaris
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In the armed forces, to be in need of dental care, one was considered unfit for duty, very strange how in civilian life someone is considered fit to work even with screaming dental problems. Perhaps if GPs responded to the fact that rotting teeth and exposed cavities posed a real life threatening problem and there signed a person off work, it might force a inept government to rethink its policies due to a loss of productivity by the million or so former NHS dental patients who can no longer access dental care.

But what I am coming to understand about the NHS is, once it was a pour money in and work at a financial loss but keep the population healthcare at an accepted standard, now it seems to have become a situation where money matters more, the least money put in to achieve an aim the better, that being basic health care suffers, the deficit of nurses, the overworking of nurses, the lack of preventative medicine and one thing leads to another.

To me, a company and therefore a county's biggest asset is it's work force, a content work force can achieve anything asked of it, this penny pinching mentality that we have seemed to got into, will be the country's undoing as unhealthy, unhappy people feel less inclined to see the bigger picture due to the pain and discomfort they suffer. If a government tries to run a public health organisation as a successful business, people will lose out.

Even with GP's, they being trust holders, it is the same, many of my single friends, single male friends feel awkward going to the GP through the belief that healthcare finance is divided up into the most needy, starting with childcare, mothers, the elderly, the disabled and single supposedly healthy males, somewhere at the bottom of the list, fund allocation areas divided proportionaly. I have been told by my GP a few times, the funding isn't available when I have enquired about different treatments.But the solution I have found, is to get on their nerves, keep complaining.

If the US adopts a healthcare for all system, like we used to have, the money pit, but access to a basic standard for all, I believe it will work, you have nothing to fear, but if you adopt what appears to be our current situation, people will lose, as is being seen from afar. Private healthcare can and as in this country does run alongside public, a person if they have the money, or the preference can go private if they wish, but private should not be the only option available for less popular forms of healthcare, a bit like the difference between a first class seat on an airline, and cattle class, everyone is the same, it is just a person is prepared to pay more to get a better standard, which is no more safer than cattle class.

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Post #: 64

RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 8:20:19 AM

FullCircle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Private healthcare can and as in this country does run alongside public, a person if they have the money, or the preference can go private if they wish, but private should not be the only option available for less popular forms of healthcare, a bit like the difference between a first class seat on an airline, and cattle class, everyone is the same, it is just a person is prepared to pay more to get a better standard, which is no more safer than cattle class.

I'll admit one weakness of the NHS and that is the conservative medicine approach that is inherent within it, the failing follows this typical form:

A private patient suffers a condition and due to his ability to pay for any option to alleviate his suffering (even unproven treatments) the private sector tends to be more adventurous in terms of options for treatment. The NHS looks to such private studies elsewhere in the world to see what has been proven to work. So in this respect it is slightly behind the curve because it can't easily take chances on unproven treatments.

Also obviously the NHS is dependent on the same powerful drugs companies as everyone else is, which is a system driven by demand and who is willing to pay what. In terms of surgical techniques it has good surgeons with an inherent understanding and liking for the NHS ethos, so no private organisation can easily compete in this area with the NHS.

This highlights that for it to work you need people within the system that believe in it and believe it is the most just thing. It won't work otherwise because demand will take them elsewhere.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 8/15/2009 8:27:32 AM >

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Post #: 65

RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 8:22:47 AM

Sanity

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Thank you for the very honest, thorough, well thought out post and while I disagree with certain points, I respect your keen perspective on it.

The money pit as you call it, is probably the reason Britain is evolving away from it and towards the system of rationing that you describe. Coincidentally, cost seems to be the prime consideration on Obama's mind too. Everyone here keeps harping on the price we pay for health care, and I agree that costs here are out of proportion to services but I find it odd that we would want to scrap everything we have that's good and without any kind of consideration at all move blindly overnight to a system that will be (in my mind) either the money pit you describe or the system rationing that the British government is employing to reform it.

In other words, the most glaring problem over here is that Obama wanted this all settled by August, which, with so much to consider and work through and debate, was pure madness... and so that's why this whole country over here seems to be falling apart over this. The leadership we're seeing on this debate is totally scrambled.

If we debate we're un-American. Union goons are busting heads at public meetings called to discuss alternatives, and the president is telling Democrats that if they get hit they're gonna punch back twice as hard.

So we may not get anything accomplished until we get a more rational person running the show, at least one would hope so.

But thank you Aneirin for the thoughtful post, you seem to be a voice of reason here.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/15/2009 8:56:32 AM >

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Post #: 66

RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 8:27:46 AM

LillyoftheVally

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The thing is no country has it right yet, the NHS could do with being reformed, as could many other systems, including that of the US. I don't think any of us will ever get it perfect, but to me a system which leaves thousands and thousands unable to get medical treatment has a long way to go

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Post #: 67

RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 8:36:26 AM

Sanity

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Thank you, I can somewhat agree with that statement.

It's all very complicated, and Obama could have tried a little foreplay, rather that just slapping the bitch around and rahming it in like that.

Now he may never get her. One more approach like that and she's down at the police station, filing charges...

Bill Clinton, now I didn't like him but he was a smooth operator, politically.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

The thing is no country has it right yet, the NHS could do with being reformed, as could many other systems, including that of the US. I don't think any of us will ever get it perfect, but to me a system which leaves thousands and thousands unable to get medical treatment has a long way to go

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Post #: 68

RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 8:39:37 AM

LillyoftheVally

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So your issue is that Obama is trying to do it too fast? See I can sort of see what you are saying, easing it gently can be easier for people to take, but at the same time I can also see the frustration that he must feel when looking at the current system and his desperate desire to make it better. It is a tough one

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Post #: 69

RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 9:55:58 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

If the government takes over health care, the private companies will be put out of business. There will be no other option,,,,

How many pages of people in other countries telling you that's not the way their health care systems work do you have to read before you start to understand that that's not the way their health care systems work? You guys just keep repeating the same thing over and over again, and you pay absolutely no attention to people who've been living their entire lives in the kind of health care systems Obama is trying - or, was trying - to implement here.

These people keep telling you it just doesn't work that way, and you keep repeating, "Don't tell me how things work in your country - I know better!" It's incredible. Just fucking incredible. It's as if you're saying, "There are dragons on the other side of the horizon, and if you sail there, you'll be destroyed by the dragons!" And they're saying, "No, we live here on the other side of the horizon, and there are no dragons. We're all fine." And you fire back with, "Nonsense! Everybody knows there are dragons there!"

Turn off Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh, and spend an hour doing some research on what you're talking about. You could start with looking at the eleventy bazillion other countries where government health care is already working, and working much better than our own, and asking yourself why you think our country is completely incapable of doing something these furriners are doing so well. Why the people in those countries live longer than we do, are healthier than we are, and in many cases enjoy a higher standard of living than the average American because their economy is not crippled by the out-of-control costs that characterize our health care system. Take some time to actually educate yourself on the matter. It could hardly be any easier for you - the facts you need are right here in front of your face.

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Post #: 70

RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 10:04:50 AM

Sanity

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Obama intends to eliminate private insurance, in his own words.

Honesty would work so much better for him and for the Democrats, but instead they favor the two-faced approach, which just takes away all of their credibility as it well should.

What we need is an honest debate, and not all these damned lies from our national leaders.

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Post #: 71

RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 10:08:07 AM

Starbuck09

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As has already been pointed out to you sanity if what obama is planning to do in america is different than the system we have in britain then the comparison is ridiculous. In fact for proponents against obama's plans the comparison backfires enormously as it is doing at the moment when people look at the system in Britian and see how excellent it is and in no way the absurd caricature that it is made out to be in the american media at the moment.

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Post #: 72

RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 10:11:57 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
In other words, the most glaring problem over here is that Obama wanted this all settled by August, which, with so much to consider and work through and debate, was pure madness... and so that's why this whole country over here seems to be falling apart over this. The leadership we're seeing on this debate is totally scrambled.

I don't think it's so much that the leadership is scrambled, I think it's completely non-existent.

This is an unforgivable failure of leadership on Obama's part. This is his pet project, inended to be the centerpiece of his presidency, and he can't even give a consistent and coherent explanation of how it would work. All he does is rail at congress to get it done, and exhort the electorate to pressure congress and support the program, but he refuses to tell congress exactly what he expects from them and is therefore unable to give straight answers to the people about exactly what it is he wants them to support. He's putting the whole thing on the backs of other people, and looking like a complete idiot and a very weak and ineffectual leader.

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Post #: 73

RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 10:13:22 AM

Sanity

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We have some areas of agreement, however fleeting.

You're a good man, panda. Too bad we have to disagree so often and to the extent that we do.

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Post #: 74

RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 10:31:25 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Obama intends to eliminate private insurance, in his own words.

Honesty would work so much better for him and for the Democrats, but instead they favor the two-faced approach, which just takes away all of their credibility as it well should.

What we need is an honest debate, and not all these damned lies from our national leaders.

There is not one word in that video from Obama talking about eliminating private insurance. Not one word. The closest he comes is to state that his goal is to move the United States toward a single-payer system, but that does not mean eliminating private insurance. Most countries that have so-called "single payer" systems have supplemental private insurance options as well - France, Germany, Canada, Belgium, The UK, and Australia are all examples off the top of my head. Why do you think we couldn't do the same?

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Post #: 75

RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 10:34:08 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

We have some areas of agreement, however fleeting.

You're a good man, panda. Too bad we have to disagree so often and to the extent that we do.

Thanks, man. I've got a lot of respect for you, too, even if we do disagree on so many things. I think what it comes down to is, we've got very similar values and principles, but completely different philosophies on how to apply them. I hope we get the chance to talk about all this shit over a beer someday.

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Post #: 76

RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 10:37:49 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

It's true, Lucy, that Obama has openly said in the past that it will take time but eventually private insurers can be driven out of business. The headlines this morning have Obama lecturing anyone who will listen on how evil health insurance companies are, he's sounding an awful lot like his amigo Hugo Chavez:

Obama keeps heat on insurance firms

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

servantforuse
Both the UK and Canada have private insurance companies. Nothing I have seen or read or watched apart from the scare mongers tells me that ALL private insurance will be stamped out, cmon stop grasping at straws and using stereotypes.

No, it's not true Sanity.

And if it is, show me where in your link Obama says that.

Or are you just throwing out random links and hoping no one reads them, so you can make up your own version of what is being said?

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 8/15/2009 10:45:37 AM >

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Post #: 77

RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 10:58:05 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

We have had a health care system run by the government for around sixty years sanity and we still have a thriving private health care service.

Obama's stated claim is that he's going to change that here.

Obama fights back after 'dead grandmas' scare campaign‎
Brad Norington, Washington Correspondent | August 13, 2009

Mr Obama yesterday called for serious debate on healthcare and accused his critics of creating "bogeymen" to scare and mislead. He devoted much of his speech and 50 minutes of answering questions to the private health firms, accusing them of holding Americans hostage.

Far from the government seeking to take over health, as his opponents claim, he said the insurance firms exerted control: they denied coverage to people because of pre-existing conditions, dropped coverage when people became ill or charged fees that could not be afforded for desperately needed care.

Mr Obama said he wanted to set the record straight after wild misrepresentations bearing no resemblance to what was being proposed. He intended to create a public insurance option for people that would compete with private insurance paid for by US employers. No one would be forced to do anything, he said.

"Under the reform we're proposing, if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. If you like your healthcare plan, you can keep your healthcare plan."

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 8/15/2009 10:59:10 AM >

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Post #: 78

RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 11:07:22 AM

rulemylife

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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Obama intends to eliminate private insurance, in his own words.

Honesty would work so much better for him and for the Democrats, but instead they favor the two-faced approach, which just takes away all of their credibility as it well should.

What we need is an honest debate, and not all these damned lies from our national leaders.

Honesty would work much better for you as well, instead of pulling up these heavily-edited, out-of-context quotes to try and prove what is not true.

How about posting the actual video of the speech Obama made to the American Medical Association, a speech that was heartily applauded by the organization, instead of out-of-context statements to mislead everyone about what he was actually saying?

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Post #: 79

RE: Britons defend their health care from US criticism - 8/15/2009 11:15:39 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Single payer will by definition eliminate employer coverage, which is what most people refer to as private coverage.

Obama makes wild claims that no one will have to change coverage or doctors or what have you, but that's just dishonest. It's a lie. With single payer, coverage is changed, isn't it. And once we're in his glorious single payer (nationalized health care) system there's no backing out, we're in, and we'll do whatever the bureaucrat in charge damn well tells us.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
There is not one word in that video from Obama talking about eliminating private insurance. Not one word. The closest he comes is to state that his goal is to move the United States toward a single-payer system, but that does not mean eliminating private insurance. Most countries that have so-called "single payer" systems have supplemental private insurance options as well - France, Germany, Canada, Belgium, The UK, and Australia are all examples off the top of my head. Why do you think we couldn't do the same?

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Post #: 80

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