RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (Full Version)

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servantforuse -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 5:39:00 PM)

I see it as a victory for the taxpayers. Those who would be footing the bill for everyone else ready to get FREE health care.




TheHeretic -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 5:52:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Something else I find notable is that they're "blaming" the Republicans, when Republicans don't even have enough votes in Congress to fillibuster.





C'mon, Sanity, you know how this stuff works.  They are pitching these soundbites about the Republicans at people without a fucking clue about how the process even works.  If there was only one Republican in each chamber, it would be his fault.





gift4mistress -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 5:56:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45


B Her medicine for it cost over $1,000 per month. Some middle-management insurance scrub decided it would 'save money' to use the generic form of the drug, without discussing it with the doc, without notifying the patient.

A caller to a radio show here told how a family member had to go to Central America for a procedure which cost $40,000 here

And you think that's a better system?



If you want to fix the real problem that is in our health care system then you have to FIX THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM. Setting up a universal health care system isn't going to fix the root of the problem. The root of the problem will still BE THERE.

Also, I am not sure as to whether or not a universal health care system would even help that girl. It wouldn't surprise me if some bureaucratic worker tried to convince the family that she doesn't need the procedure or that they shouldn't get for her. Remember, under a universal care system they have to make decisions based on the greater good of society and not on the individual. But, if she was able to get the surgery there would be no guarantee that she would get it on time anyways.




Brain -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 6:09:53 PM)

A Public Option Isn’t a Curse, or a Cure
By RICHARD THALER
Published: August 15, 2009

WE clearly don’t need any more distractions from the two main issues of health care reform: how to deal with our large uninsured population and how to make the entire system more cost effective. So, for now, let’s ignore the shouted rhetoric about whether “death panels” want to kill off Grandma or whether President Obama wants to turn the country into a socialist state.

But even if we discard these absurdities, and tune out the raucous scenes at town-hall meetings, one big distraction remains: the question of whether a “public option” should be part of the health care solution. To me, the issue is a red herring, and is getting in the way of genuine reform.

In debating the public option — that is, an insurance option run by the government — the politicians themselves are making exaggerated claims about its pros and cons. We hear from the right that an insurance plan run by the government will drive all private-sector insurers out of business and be the first step toward socialism, if not communism. The left claims that only a public option can give evil insurers the competition they need to create much-needed reform.

To evaluate these contentions, we need to know some details about how a public option would work in practice. And those details have been missing.

For example, President Obama has said that the public plan would be required to break even financially, but Congress hasn’t decided how to make that happen. (Of course, the poor may have to have their health insurance subsidized, but those subsidies could go to both public and privately operated insurance companies.) Nailing down this detail is crucial. If the public option does not have to break even — if, in fact, it is to receive government subsidies — then it is correct to worry that it would destroy competition, not foster it. If the public plan runs a deficit, who will fix it? If it is Congress, we have to worry that what should be economic decisions will turn into political battles.

A second detail is whether the government will grant the public plan the power to impose special deals with suppliers like hospitals and drug companies — a move that would dampen, not enhance, competition with the private sector.
But let’s assume that the public option does have to break even and can’t make any special deals. What should we expect to happen?

Here is a thought experiment: Can you think of a domain where a government-run business competes successfully with private-sector companies? In a town hall meeting last week, President Obama mentioned one such example: the market for overnight shipments. This market now has two main private suppliers, FedEx and UPS, and one public one, the United States Postal Service. When you have to send something overnight, which one do you use? Most shippers choose one of the private companies. (Indeed, even the idea that we need a government-run postal service is doubtful. Sweden has successfully privatized its postal service. Sweden! And the European Union will open mail service to competition in 2011.)

The Postal Service offers another instructive lesson. When it periodically starts running deficits (as it is now) and proposes cost-saving measures like eliminating Saturday delivery or closing tiny post offices, Congress often intervenes under pressure from predictable interest groups like bulk mailers, the 600,000 postal employees, and the users of those tiny offices.

More generally, it is hard to find examples where government-run businesses compete with private companies and win. One reason is that governments are not very good at innovation. As the great 19th-century economist Alfred Marshall wrote, “A government could print a good edition of Shakespeare’s works, but it could not get them written.”

But what about the often-stated fact that Medicare has much lower operating costs than private insurance companies? Won’t this allow the public option to compete successfully? As Victor Fuchs, the dean of American health economists, recently argued in The New England Journal of Medicine, this is not an apt comparison because the new public plan would have marketing and other administrative costs that don’t apply to Medicare with its captive market.

ALL of this leads me to conclude that if we impose sensible rules on the public option, it will neither save nor destroy the health care system because it will simply not get much market share. And if we do not impose those rules, the public option will hurt rather than help.

So here’s some free advice to members of Congress: While you are enjoying your August recess and town hall meetings, instead of arguing about whether to have a public option, argue about the ground rules.

To the Republicans, I say this: If you can get real assurances that the public option has to break even, and that it will get no special deals from suppliers, let the Democrats have it but ask for concessions on tort reform in return. (That could actually save some money.) The resulting public plan will be too small to notice.

To the Democrats, I say this: If you want competition in health care, you won’t get it if the public option can make deals its competitors can’t. So either give the Republicans hard assurances that the public option would have to break even and not get special treatment, or, better yet, just give it up to ensure that some useful health care reform is passed. A public option is neither necessary nor sufficient for achieving the real goals of reform, and those goals are too important to risk losing the war.

Richard H. Thaler is a professor of economics and behavioral science at the Booth School of Business at the University of Chicago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/16/business/economy/16view.html?_r=5&th&emc=th




gift4mistress -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 6:17:50 PM)

Brain, that is the only post that I have read from you that I liked. Too-shay! 




Loki45 -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 6:20:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gift4mistress
Remember, under a universal care system they have to make decisions based on the greater good of society and not on the individual. But, if she was able to get the surgery there would be no guarantee that she would get it on time anyways.


Actually, under the plan currently put forth that so-called 'death panel' would actually be a panel of medical doctors and other personell who would make decisions that are currently up to 'middle-management' insurance reps.

And as its been reported for quite some time. The largest cause for the wait in Canada is the sheer lack of doctors. We have waiting lines even here in the States. It's not the plans fault that a doc can see only so many people in a 24 hour period. Even doctors need sleep.




gift4mistress -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 6:23:10 PM)

And, they will make the decision based on the greater good of society. That is what they will be told by their superiors. I don't care if you put Chucky Cheese in the panel.

The system that we have now gives more incentive for one to become a doctor. Thus, creating more doctors.




Loki45 -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 6:24:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gift4mistress
And, they will make the decision based on the greater good of society. That is what they will be told by their superiors. I don't care if you put Chucky Cheese in the panel. 


No, that's what the opponents of the bill say. That isn't the case, though.




gift4mistress -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 6:25:34 PM)

Because you say so? [;)]

Oh, so there will be infinite resources and money that will go in to the system so we will be able to help every person in the world with any and every problem?




Arpig -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 6:25:38 PM)

Fast reply~
Without the public option, what's the point?




Loki45 -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 6:27:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gift4mistress

Because you say so? [;)]


No, because of how its worded. The ones who have read the bill have already said what's really in it. Yet the 'right' still likes to throw out the 'death panel' buzz word and trot out their downs babies in front of the cameras to play like the 'victim.' Doesn't mean the 'right' is right. Just means they are stupid and ill-informed and flat-out lying. Big surprise there.




gift4mistress -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 6:28:07 PM)

Oh, so you have read the bill? Tell me where it says all this stuff? 




Loki45 -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 6:37:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gift4mistress

Oh, so you have read the bill? Tell me where it says all this stuff? 


I'm not even getting into that. You'll deny it anyway. There are already hundreds of posts with DETAILED explainations and detailed directions to which pages are the ones to read. Look them up. I'm not doing your homework for you. However, to be 'nice' I'll at least point you in the right direction:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_2751951/mpage_1/tm.htm

Start about post #2 -- tazzygirl's first post in the thread -- and go from there.




Jack45 -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 6:44:23 PM)

The best solution is to have a separation.
Democrats should not have to live under a free and liberty loving nation, and heartland Americans should not have to live under Commisars. Simplest, sanest, way to settle all this is separation. Otherwise it is going to get real nasty according to the guy they had on NPR the other day.  Of course there may be some who look forward to "taking it to the streets."

I would prefer a peaceable calm solution.
Secede!   Tuesday, May 12, 2009
A podcast with Bill Buppert on the coming good political news.




Loki45 -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 6:49:09 PM)

LoL. And just when I thought no one would post jokes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jack45
The best solution is to have a separation.
Democrats should not have to live under a free and liberty loving nation, and heartland Americans should not have to live under Commisars.


Yeah, while the dems were living under 'commisars' the republicans could be happy with their dicators, right?

Because I can tell you, if I had to choose between Russia and WWII Germany, I'd pick Russia any day and twice on Sundays.





Sanity -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 8:38:33 PM)

quote:

Overhauling health-care system tops agenda at annual meeting of Canada's doctors


SASKATOON — The incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association says this country's health-care system is sick and doctors need to develop a plan to cure it.Dr. Anne Doig says patients are getting less than optimal care and she adds that physicians from across the country - who will gather in Saskatoon on Sunday for their annual meeting - recognize that changes must be made.

"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize," Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press."We know that there must be change," she said. "We're all running flat out, we're all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands."

The pitch for change at the conference is to start with a presentation from Dr. Robert Ouellet, the current president of the CMA, who has said there's a critical need to make Canada's health-care system patient-centred. He will present details from his fact-finding trip to Europe in January, where he met with health groups in England, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands and France.

His thoughts on the issue are already clear. Ouellet has been saying since his return that "a health-care revolution has passed us by," that it's possible to make wait lists disappear while maintaining universal coverage and "that competition should be welcomed, not feared."

In other words, Ouellet believes there could be a role for private health-care delivery within the public system.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu_Z3KXoQw




SpinnerofTales -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 8:51:38 PM)

quote:

The best solution is to have a separation.
Democrats should not have to live under a free and liberty loving nation, and heartland Americans should not have to live under Commisars. Simplest, sanest, way to settle all this is separation. Otherwise it is going to get real nasty according to the guy they had on NPR the other day. Of course there may be some who look forward to "taking it to the streets."

I would prefer a peaceable calm solution.
Secede! Tuesday, May 12, 2009
A podcast with Bill Buppert on the coming good political news.

ORIGINAL: Jack45




You know, I love the right wing. In this post we have one suggesting the destruction of the country they claim to love so much because, oh god!, we have a democrat in office. In another thread, we have a self styled conservative advocating nuking Afghanastan or Iraq as a viable military option. Yep...these are the sort of people I want to see making decisions that count.






cornflakegirl -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 8:54:39 PM)

Spinner, you just hate freedom. ;)




Sanity -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 8:58:05 PM)


Wasn't it a Democrat who nuked two entire cities? [;)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales
You know, I love the right wing. In this post we have one suggesting the destruction of the country they claim to love so much because, oh god!, we have a democrat in office. In another thread, we have a self styled conservative advocating nuking Afghanastan or Iraq as a viable military option. Yep...these are the sort of people I want to see making decisions that count.







Arpig -> RE: RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (8/16/2009 9:01:38 PM)

I disagree with Ouellet. Both in his assertion that the health care system is broken, and his conclusions regarding the benefits of private for profit health delivery models. But then again, I'm pretty sure that surprises nobody. [:D]




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