When to Intervene? (Full Version)

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Daes -> When to Intervene? (8/18/2009 4:18:51 PM)

I know there is a Very very fine line when it comes it abuse and the lifestyler due to the whole "Your kink is not my kink and no its not okay"...

So let me paint a scenario or two. You have a couple, one dominant and the other submissive. If the submissive has expressed desire to leave but does not do so out of fear, do you intervene? If same said submissive was being beaten almost to where one may consider it "beyond limitations", do you intervene?

What if this was in a public place like a dungeon?

I know this is all hypothetical, yet I'm curious. If there is some rational cause in your mind that it is indeed unwanted play/sex whatever, do you wave the feeling away and ignore it since its "none of your business"? Do you still ignore it since everyone else is ignoring it?

I've been wondering these things due to something that happened at one of the dungeons in Los Angeles. A submissive was drunk, her owner raped in one of the play rooms where she was bound then allowed others access to her. I do not know all the circumstances, all I do know is that the woman seems traumatized. The owner has several friends that are posing as alibies. I'm sure the situation at the club was that everyone was having fun and nothing seemed to be wrong. But I can't help but wonder that amongst so many people, there must have been One person that may have known something could have been up, but did nothing.

So, when (under my scenarios) do you think it's appropriate to step in if at all?



leadership527 -> RE: When to Intervene? (8/18/2009 4:48:23 PM)

THere's no way I could answer such a question in theory.The actual situation would be highly nuanced. In a public setting, I would not personally intervene at all. I'd engage the appropriate managemetn staff first and, if somehow things had escalated beyond all reaon, the cops.



naughtysubK -> RE: When to Intervene? (8/18/2009 5:38:30 PM)

you said you did not know all of the circumstances.   Is it posible that she just appeared traumatized to you? Often a sub will appear to just shut down right after a very intense scene. 

I do wonder about her being drunk.  I am sure they do things differently in LA,  but the dungeons I have been to do not even allow you in if you are drunk and they do not have alcohol on the premises. 

Do they have anyone there serving as a dungeon monitor?  If so,  that is who should be stepping in if need be




sweetsmileysub -> RE: When to Intervene? (8/18/2009 7:04:50 PM)

In any dungeon there is a monitor for such a thing.  If you personally feel like someone is going above and beyond call attention to this dungeon master the the situation at hand. 




Daes -> RE: When to Intervene? (8/18/2009 9:11:08 PM)

Actually... the club I'm referring to where this girl was drunk does allow people to play while intoxicated, this includes the host. It actually has No dungeon masters, which is why some of my older friends will not go there and have advised me to be careful and make sure I have someone with me. There is very little monitoring.

In addition, the girl I've spoken of has since left the lifestyle.



marie2 -> RE: When to Intervene? (8/18/2009 9:31:38 PM)

Hypothetically speaking, if I were in a joint like that and saw that happening, I wouldn't do anything about it, because I would be under the presumption that it was consentual.  If I saw the same thing going on in a dark alley somewhere, I'd call the cops.



NyDaddysGirl -> RE: When to Intervene? (8/19/2009 3:36:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daes

I know there is a Very very fine line when it comes it abuse and the lifestyler due to the whole "Your kink is not my kink and no its not okay"...

So let me paint a scenario or two. You have a couple, one dominant and the other submissive. If the submissive has expressed desire to leave but does not do so out of fear, do you intervene? If same said submissive was being beaten almost to where one may consider it "beyond limitations", do you intervene?

What if this was in a public place like a dungeon?

I know this is all hypothetical, yet I'm curious. If there is some rational cause in your mind that it is indeed unwanted play/sex whatever, do you wave the feeling away and ignore it since its "none of your business"? Do you still ignore it since everyone else is ignoring it?

I've been wondering these things due to something that happened at one of the dungeons in Los Angeles. A submissive was drunk, her owner raped in one of the play rooms where she was bound then allowed others access to her. I do not know all the circumstances, all I do know is that the woman seems traumatized. The owner has several friends that are posing as alibies. I'm sure the situation at the club was that everyone was having fun and nothing seemed to be wrong. But I can't help but wonder that amongst so many people, there must have been One person that may have known something could have been up, but did nothing.

So, when (under my scenarios) do you think it's appropriate to step in if at all?


You were there, saw this take place and did nothing at the time?  Are you posting becuase you are seeking justification for not stepping in?



LaTigresse -> RE: When to Intervene? (8/19/2009 4:02:56 AM)

Based upon your written observations alone, it probably was over the line. What I would do is irrelevant because I doubt I would be in such a place. I also have the mindset that unless one party is mentally incompacitated or under the legal age, all involved were consenting adults. The woman made the concious choice to submit to that male. If he was not trustworthy she has learned a horrible lesson. Hopefully, she rethinks putting herself in such a position again.

Understand, I am not condoning rape, or anything of that nature. What I am bringing into the equasion is that it is doubtful the guy was the picture pefect, wonderful in every way, dominant kind of guy, then whamo......evil rapist comes out to play one night. She consented to submit to him, gave over control to him, he ended up not being the guy she hoped he would be. That is one possibility.

The scene might be a dream one for many here. Many may have participated in something similar. It is even possible that she initiated the scene, that it had been a hot fantasy, she was nervous as hell about doing it, downed a few shots to get her liquid courage on, then once the reality actually happened it wasn't the hot wonderful reality that her fantasy was.It is possible the guy is an awesome guy that was just trying to make her fantasy a reality, not someone to demonize at all.  It is very probable there are only two people that really know what the truth is, and may ever know.



sirsholly -> RE: When to Intervene? (8/19/2009 4:09:21 AM)

quote:

You were there, saw this take place and did nothing at the time? Are you posting becuase you are seeking justification for not stepping in?
come on now....she was going to step between the sub and a group of men? She has already stated there was not a dungeon master to intervene, the host was possibly drunk, etc...



LillyoftheVally -> RE: When to Intervene? (8/19/2009 4:12:28 AM)

FR

To be honest I wouldn't ever, I dunno what is or isnt consensual if I was really worried I would inform the DM but that is about it



DarkSteven -> RE: When to Intervene? (8/19/2009 4:30:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daes

Actually... the club I'm referring to where this girl was drunk does allow people to play while intoxicated, this includes the host. It actually has No dungeon masters, which is why some of my older friends will not go there and have advised me to be careful and make sure I have someone with me. There is very little monitoring.

In addition, the girl I've spoken of has since left the lifestyle.



Just how hypothetical is this?



NyDaddysGirl -> RE: When to Intervene? (8/19/2009 4:35:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

You were there, saw this take place and did nothing at the time? Are you posting becuase you are seeking justification for not stepping in?
come on now....she was going to step between the sub and a group of men? She has already stated there was not a dungeon master to intervene, the host was possibly drunk, etc...


I don't even know if the OP was there or just heard about it after.  That's why I asked the two questions.

Based on the same facts you point out, I think precious few people would intervene.

I didn't give my own opinion, which is that I wouldn't be in that situation, so it's a moot point.



KCalli -> RE: When to Intervene? (8/19/2009 5:40:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daes

Actually... the club I'm referring to where this girl was drunk does allow people to play while intoxicated, this includes the host. It actually has No dungeon masters, which is why some of my older friends will not go there and have advised me to be careful and make sure I have someone with me. There is very little monitoring.

In addition, the girl I've spoken of has since left the lifestyle.



Not enough money or kink to make me even want to darken the door of a place like that! Personally, I value my body, and myself much more highly than that. Very dangerous environment.



IrishMist -> RE: When to Intervene? (8/19/2009 5:48:32 AM)

quote:

If the submissive has expressed desire to leave but does not do so out of fear, do you intervene?

No
quote:

If same said submissive was being beaten almost to where one may consider it "beyond limitations", do you intervene?

No
quote:

What if this was in a public place like a dungeon?

No. Unless I own the place, it's not my business to stop what's going on.
quote:

If there is some rational cause in your mind that it is indeed unwanted play/sex whatever, do you wave the feeling away and ignore it since its "none of your business"?

And what would the rational cause be? Who would determine such a cause? YOU? ME? Or maybe the couple three feet away from me?
It's not my place to intervene in someone elses relationship.
quote:

Do you still ignore it since everyone else is ignoring it?

I don't follow 'the crowd'. I follow my own rules, my own instincts, and my own decisions.
quote:

So, when (under my scenarios) do you think it's appropriate to step in if at all?

Only if I am working and have no choice but to intervene.



allthatjaz -> RE: When to Intervene? (8/19/2009 10:20:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse



The scene might be a dream one for many here. Many may have participated in something similar. It is even possible that she initiated the scene, that it had been a hot fantasy, she was nervous as hell about doing it, downed a few shots to get her liquid courage on, then once the reality actually happened it wasn't the hot wonderful reality that her fantasy was.It is possible the guy is an awesome guy that was just trying to make her fantasy a reality, not someone to demonize at all.  It is very probable there are only two people that really know what the truth is, and may ever know.


Good point. I always ring a few warning bells when friends say they are planning a kidnap or gangbang scene with a new found sub.

This is also a huge risk for any BDSM club. If the girl was tied, perhaps gagged? then how on earth would anyone know that it was becoming unconsensual. The reality is, this was a fairly heavy scene and any club worth their salt should insist that a heavy scene is discussed with DM's before it takes place.
This obviously never happened here and now they have a whole load of shit to deal with.

I think gangbang rape is probably the most risky of all the things we do. Most things are very stoppable but if your Dominant and you are surrounded by half a dozen virulent men that are hugely turned on, then your Dominant may not be able to stop a scene taking on its own shape. If she was surrounded by men, then I doubt any of the back seat spectators would see what was really going on.



Mercnbeth -> RE: When to Intervene? (8/19/2009 10:26:09 AM)

quote:

...something that happened at one of the dungeons in Los Angeles...


which one?



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: When to Intervene? (8/19/2009 12:55:11 PM)

quote:

So, when (under my scenarios) do you think it's appropriate to step in if at all?


I think it is appropriate to step in if and when the injured party comes to you for help, has called the cops (or has come to you to ask for help and asked -you- to call the cops--though I will offer my phone but won't make the call myself, as I believe that it -must- be the victim's responsibility to end hir victimization at hir own hands), and charges have been pressed, pictures taken, and the offender taken into custody. Until that point, getting involved is inappropriate, as you do not know the actual circumstances involved, what was agreed to, and how or IF any consent agreement was entered into or revoked.

After 30 years as a pastoral care provider, I offer the opinion that the only way to assist in the resolution of a case of genuine abuse, whether it is inside or outside of the confines of BDSM, is to provide any -requested- support so that the individual who is being abused can take action to end the abuse. Outsiders cannot successfully intervene in situations like this, and when one tries to intervene without having been specifically invited to do so by the injured party, one is liable to end up getting one's nose clipped by said "injured party" for sticking it where it doesn't belong, as -well- as potentially compounding the issues at hand.

Dame Calla



Rhodes85 -> RE: When to Intervene? (8/19/2009 8:23:33 PM)

I might point out that she can't legally give consent if she is indeed intoxicated. Its recognized as rape. I would only step in if I had reason to believe it was crossing the line to abuse and/or she tried to stop it and he wouldn't let her.

That being said, if theres nobody around to make sure nothing happens, and they allow intoxicated people to get into situations like that in their dungeon, then its not a safe place to be. To say nothing of the fact that the owner(s) of said dungeon are fools if they aren't aware that in such a circumstance, with booze and nobody to oversee said dungeon, they could easily be liable if someone gets hurt on their property.

Short answer, stay as far away from that place as possible.



MarcEsadrian -> RE: When to Intervene? (8/19/2009 9:00:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Daes

So let me paint a scenario or two. You have a couple, one dominant and the other submissive. If the submissive has expressed desire to leave but does not do so out of fear, do you intervene? If same said submissive was being beaten almost to where one may consider it "beyond limitations", do you intervene?


No. I believe in the doctrine of accountability for one's decisions in D/s. I'm aware some who actively seek deeper servitude (often M/s) become "trapped" like this, but that is the nature of the beast. Learning one's place as a servant or slave is a process, the benefits of which can only be realized when it runs its entire course—not severed at mid-point. There are many who recall painful, difficult ordeals sweetly when reflecting upon them, and will admit that at the time, their faith, tolerance or constancy became questionable, but found a stronger loyalty and commitment since those ordeals. Additionally, it's difficult to really know what's going on between two parties in this regard. Things are not always what they seem, and it is often that the one charging in to be the White Knight, in the end, is ultimately unwelcome. This is true not only of D/s relationships, but others, too.



Falkenstein -> RE: When to Intervene? (8/24/2009 5:06:47 PM)

I know I will get a lot of flak for my answer, but "Viel Feind viel Ehr" as we say here.

If, by the best of your abilities and knowledge, how limited they may be, you see a person in danger, or otherwise in need of help. You have to step in, disrupt the scene, give the person in need an helping hand, the wisest way is probably Jeffs: remind management of its legal duties and call the cops.

I agree with Dame Calla, it will probably will do not a lot of good, and MarcEsadrian is right, when he says that the White Knights are not welcome (I made the experience once in the metro and still wonder what hurts more, the bruised rips or the bruised ego). Also it is quite possible that you will ruin a carefully planed scene and really piss of the sub who was to experience at last her greatest fantasy.

But consider the alternative: on one side you risk ruining some fun and make a fool of yourself, on the other side you may help a person in danger. The balance is clearly for action. Every morning, I see my face in a mirror: quite often, I see a fool, not rarely an idiot, regularly a guy who had one glass to much. But I have never shaved the face of a coward.

Two things that are most dangerous in this kind of situation: being hindered by the fact that nobody else moves until it is to late, and thinking that because you are right you will succeed. Only might is right (so head the words of Jeffs)

If you ever were in such a situation, which I would wish only to my worst enemies, and did not intervene, you should not feel guilty. If you had been alone, you would have reacted as your feeling tells you now. But in an amorpheous group, the pressure to do nothing is almost overwelming It is sickening, your whole body and mind tells you not to do it. So do not blame yourself. Read instead the story of Stauffenberg and look at all the gallant German officers, many of them decorated for bravory at the front, who could not stand up when they should have.

I hope but doubt it helps

Henry



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