RE: The problem with mixing men at munches

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JohnWarren -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/25/2006 11:09:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BeeQueen all replies i seen to this post are kinda personalized Since there aren't credible studies on the scene, anyone doing more than saying "I've seen this happen" or "I haven't seen this happen" is probably blowing smoke.

MHOO314 -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/25/2006 11:19:41 AM)
Bravo Tress! Thought it was only Me, I've seen this dynamic and I hate it, talk about lack of tolerance--chest beating Doms who think male submissives are wooses--and Dommes are lost little girls...and yes I've seen the same drama from alleged Dommes.

ExistentialSteel -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/25/2006 1:05:15 PM)
The person who really makes headway in a social setting of any kind doesn’t criticize others or complain. He/she is interested in all others, is honest and offers praise when warranted. He/she is a good listener and encourages others to talk about themselves and their interests. He/she learns from everyone and as the person being heard feels the respect given, it is returned. If this fails kick their asses.

BeeQueen -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/25/2006 4:31:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JohnWarren quote: ORIGINAL: BeeQueen all replies i seen to this post are kinda personalized Since there aren't credible studies on the scene, anyone doing more than saying "I've seen this happen" or "I haven't seen this happen" is probably blowing smoke. funny enough i am makin studies in that direction bdsm and society bdsm as subculture bdsm on internet and a comperative study between usa and europe im a lifestyler since i was old enough to explore sexuality...active in the austrian szene since i was 25.. and if u havent got it yet...english is not my native lang....what i ment is that there is always something else than one sees.....couse it pretty much depends on ur idea or background what u see (if u r a dominant male u ll notice rather the beehavior of the sub female ....if u r a sub male u ll rather look on the dommes...and so on) but than again....of couse selfmade autorities have to blame others preventive smoke blowers :)

Guilty1974 -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/25/2006 4:52:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BeeQueen and if u havent got it yet...english is not my native lang....what i ment is that there is always something else than one sees..... My personalised response is based on having attended loads of different parties throughout my country, and having been an organiser of play parties for some three years in one city and one year in another. I think I have quite a representative view of the play party scene around here (and a scientific background that's good enough to be somewhat self-critical when it comes to observation and in generalising my view). There are as far as I know no scientific studies concerning tensions between bdsm play party attendees, and if you know of them (or have conducted them yourself) I'd be glad to see some references to material in English or German. Otherwise, I fully agree with previous speakers that there's not much else to do here than to share our personal experiences and see if they converge or not. With regard to language, most people are mature enough to discuss the content of what you say. Anyone whining about a few typo's is probably not worth the effort of reading anyway. Roel

orfunboi -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/26/2006 6:42:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BeeQueen and if u havent got it yet...english is not my native lang....:) i wouldn't worry bout that to much. i understand your posts better than a lot of people who were raised speaking english. i tried learning German in school a long long time ago and all it did was give me a lot of respect for those who learn a 2nd langauge well enough to be understood.

JohnWarren -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/26/2006 6:42:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BeeQueen funny enough i am makin studies in that direction bdsm and society bdsm as subculture bdsm on internet and a comperative study between usa and europe im a lifestyler since i was old enough to explore sexuality...active in the austrian szene since i was 25.. and if u havent got it yet...english is not my native lang....what i ment is that there is always something else than one sees.....couse it pretty much depends on ur idea or background what u see (if u r a dominant male u ll notice rather the beehavior of the sub female ....if u r a sub male u ll rather look on the dommes...and so on) but than again....of couse selfmade autorities have to blame others preventive smoke blowers :) Sorry, I didn't realize you had academic credentials. When your studies are published, I hope you will give us the cites so we can read them. Outside of participant/observer which is a variation of "what I've seen", what methodologies have you used in your studies? I've got several colleagues who have done studies of the scene but haven't spent much effort on the munch scene which was the venue which the OP was talking about. Most of their work has been primarily oral history and meta analysis of non-academic writings. There have been a few survey's attempted, including one of my own using the TES membership, but the stumbling block there is, outside of delimited groups like TES, it's pretty hard to objectively define just who can be included in the universe, "scene." I'm glad there is someone who will be centering on the informal interactions, but I am curious about your tools since I haven't found anything that combined reliablility and validity.

FTopinMichigan -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/27/2006 4:37:03 AM)
Here's a prime example of how "tension" is created among groups. We have a local group, that for many years advertised as being open to "all," but quietly discriminated against male bottoms/subs. (Duh me, I went to parties for years, and being new, just figured that male subs just weren't plentiful in my area. It was my first group/event experience.) Anyway, after a few years, with me finally realizing it, and others also prompting them, they finally started to advertise as a male top/female bottom ONLY group. I think that works, as it's what they want, and now they openly admitted it. I strongly continued in my support of the group, in spite of not being a part of it (as a FemTop), because it was a group of great people, and good for 'couples' and 'male dom/fem subs.' They have fun, for what they enjoy. Recently though, new management took over, and the group has changed to advetising/being "primarily" M/F, so I heard. When I specifically asked a few people about the changes, I was told that while Fem Tops and male bottoms were now "allowed" at parties, they would be strongly "discouraged" from playing in the party room. (So, all participants will pay the same entry fee, but female tops, and male bottoms will not be allowed to play in the "party room." They will have to register for a room, for the entire night, in order to enjoy the benefit of party play.) Do ya think that'll create some tension? [sm=lol.gif] Suffice to say, it's a group I can no longer support. Had they remained advertising as they were, male dom only, I wouldn't have issue with it myself. Now back on topic, to the munch question....They have a munch group, that meets prior to each party, and while male subs do show up, as it's advertised freely amongst the community, they are usually openly treated with disdain by many in the membership. The majoirty, and in most cases "all," were not invited to the party after. Having a segregated group, for a specific orientation is one thing, but to "include" others and feign acceptance, and then subject them to exclusionary rules is hard to understand. K

pollux -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/27/2006 4:48:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FTopinMichigan Having a segregated group, for a specific orientation is one thing, but to "include" others and feign acceptance, and then subject them to exclusionary rules is hard to understand. K K, I had a long talk with a female dominant about a related issue a few months back. It was her opinion that malesubs pretty much bring this sort of ostracization on themselves thru various types of bad behavior. She felt this was why they tended to be at the bottom rung of the BDSM social totem pole in general, and weren't desirable as partners, yadda yadda. I'm curious if you think that was the case in this club (malsesubs behaving badly) or was it more that they just preferred the maledom/femsub dynamic, or maybe they were just femdom/malesub-phobic.

RavenMuse -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/27/2006 5:02:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FTopinMichigan Do ya think that'll create some tension? [sm=lol.gif] Suffice to say, it's a group I can no longer support. Doubt it would be a group I would have much use for either. I happen to get on rather well with a number of Dommes and enjoy their company. Such an exclusive group would appear to me to maybe feel threatened by the presence of either Dominant women or Submissive men? Do they think the Domme is going to out their hidden submissive urges? Or maybe that the boys submission might 'rub off' and tarnish their own Domly image? If that is what they are comfy with then best of luck to them but personaly I'd doubt I'd find much in common with such Dom's. I don't DO cliques!

Lashra -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/27/2006 5:06:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: theRose4U quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra I think those guys who have a problem with submales could be closeted submales themselves, or maybe they are just jealous. Jealous because the submale guy is comfortable enough with himself and who he is that he doesn't have to put on airs about being the big dominant male. Not all females are impressed by a male posturing and strutting around with his chest puffed out, mumbling about his superiority in some sort of brutish tongue. And should he call me girl he'll get my size 9 boot straight up his behind. No girl here, I'm all woman. Lashra This had me rolling laughing. The sheer number of Doms especially Goreans that will email saying that they're really Switch and can we just get together for a little session is amazing. I'm not a pro and probably never will be unless I meet a stable of subs that are really willing to pay $500 an hour x 24hrsx 365 days...as so many claim. It floors me the number of men that are so full of themselves and their own ego that they treat women and male subs with distain and disrespect. Too many narrow minded a holes wave this banner of "the RIGHT WAY of BDSM" that puts them at this top of the pile for no better reason than they made up the rules that they proclaim as the only "true way". Many on here are smart enough to see this for what it is...laugh then move on. Sprays the flame retardant on my way out. Yes I've gotten some email/messages from some Gorean males saying they've always been curious about what it would be like to be dominanted by a woman, but can't act on their desires because they would feel and be viewed as less then a man my reply was:" if you aren't man enough to be who you really are and do what makes you happy then your weaker then any man or woman I know." I've also gotten messages from them telling me they could teach me to be a real woman. My reply was: "I have a pussy and tits that I was born with, I'm all woman. I also have intelligence, something which seems to have escaped you during your time in utero." I think these knuckle dragging types just need to be ignored, hopefully extinction will hit their species some day. Lashra

FTopinMichigan -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/27/2006 5:35:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux I'm curious if you think that was the case in this club (malsesubs behaving badly) or was it more that they just preferred the maledom/femsub dynamic, or maybe they were just femdom/malesub-phobic. Pollux, I believe it would be all three reasons. I did hear that the male sub/bottoms that attended this group's particular parties had lacked some etiquette when making initial contact with women (such as female bottoms being begged to scene as tops, etc. - but this was not unlike the Doms approaching "me" to bottom). I think some of the faux pas may be due to some of those men just discovering the more public 'scene,' and their excitement far outweighing their common sense, and social skills. I do know this tainted their (the male sub's) image greatly. But....there were also some stereotypical submissives that pushed the envelope at this party, that didn't coincide with the group structure. Yes, they do prefer the maledom/femsub dynamic, but I believe they (the group itself) should state it clearly, as I've said previously. It's the management's "preference," it should be the way "they" want it. Don't include "all" is the suggestion, of course. Femdom/malesub phobic is right. But this type of fear was only exhibited by some of the men in the group, from what I heard for myself. Pollux, both you and your friend are quite astute to the dynamic that's present there. quote: ORIGINAL: RavenMuse Do they think the Domme is going to out their hidden submissive urges? Or maybe that the boys submission might 'rub off' and tarnish their own Domly image? If that is what they are comfy with then best of luck to them but personaly I'd doubt I'd find much in common with such Dom's. I don't DO cliques! RavenMuse [:D], you hit the nail on the head, for how some of the men feel (not "all" fortunately). Yes, there were quite a few of them that bottomed privately, and it was the reason why I was still able to enjoy the parties in the past. At least I could look forward to my open minded Dom friends, to bottom privately, but there were those that hid their interest from the group, and yet talked against any man that bottomed. Sad but true. And for your comment about not doing "cliques".....this group has the reputation for being the largest clique around, but when I was active with the group I defended it. I guess it was an issue of being able to enjoy it, and keeping blinders on. My error in judgment, 'cause I was having a good time. I can see clearly now! K

BeeQueen -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/27/2006 9:06:08 AM)
it will take quite a while still till anything is done im working on my masterpaper all studies where based on the gender study ideas, ethnographic methodes and qualitative analyse of interviews and questionairs so far i can tell that in most cases its 2 diffrent things to say we r open and to show openess bdsm is a subculture..divided in lil sub sub cultures....its not easy to put ur finger on the lil differences....but if u dig deep enough u will find where it is felt bdsm..and where it is mainstream idea of bdsm if i ever get published i ll let u know

RavenMuse -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/27/2006 9:21:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FTopinMichigan RavenMuse [:D], you hit the nail on the head, for how some of the men feel (not "all" fortunately). Yes, there were quite a few of them that bottomed privately, and it was the reason why I was still able to enjoy the parties in the past. At least I could look forward to my open minded Dom friends, to bottom privately, but there were those that hid their interest from the group, and yet talked against any man that bottomed. Sad but true. I must admit I find it hard to take such men seriously. Their problems seem to stem from their insecuritys. A bit like men who are uncofortable around gays.... Do they think a gay man is going to 'turn' them? My best mate when I was living up north was gay. One week we would go out to drink in my usual stomping grounds full of denim clad hairy biker types playing heavy rock. The week after we would be off for a drink in his normal watering holes, full of slender young men in white T-shirts dancing to Erasure. If you are confident in who you are then what is the problem? I can get on well with just about anyone with an open mind! OK so I don't (read can't, I tried once or twice, the reaction simply isn't there) switch, but I've no problem with those who do. Plus if they aren't YOUR partner then what does it matter if they switch anyhow? quote: And for your comment about not doing "cliques".....this group has the reputation for being the largest clique around, but when I was active with the group I defended it. I guess it was an issue of being able to enjoy it, and keeping blinders on. My error in judgment, 'cause I was having a good time. I've had that experience once or twice. Not spotting it because I was accepted and assumed the group where just as accepting to everyone (Possers and wannabee's exclude themselves as far as I am concerned). But once I spot that it is a clique then I'm quite likely to ruffle a few feathers by walking out alongside the person they are unfairly excluding.

PlayfulOne -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/27/2006 4:10:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EvilGeoff quote: ORIGINAL: Aimtoplease101 An odd dynamic at munches and other BDSM community events is the tension created by the presence of: (a) men who are dominant towards women; and (b) men who are submissive towards women, but not submissive towards men. How do groups deal with this situation? ATP I've only seen that sort of thing in men who are not self-assured. Lack of self-confidence/self-esteem/self-awareness.... something. I'm not sure I can put my finger on it exactly but I've never felt that coming off of guys who are quite comfortable in their own skins. I sometimes get the same kind of feeling of tension coming off of some straight men in a predominantly gay leather crowd. grins and shrugs Personally, I take it as a compliment if the gay guys start hitting on me. I AM a hairy bastard and certainly qualify as a bear! Maybe there's a touch of testosterone competitiveness between the Dominants (roosters preening, oh yeah), and perhaps between the submissives (after all, there are more male subs than female Dominants), but there shouldn't been cross competition. After all, we're going after different target audiences. Within my own group, I don't think it's a problem, but that may because I lead by example. I make friends with the sub males. After all, I'm trying to get one or two of them to be yardboys for me! LOL YIK, - Geoff I think you are right. I don't do a lot of munches, but I was somewhere the other night where we had 3 male dominants and 1 female switch in the group. There was not one bit of tension or uneasiness for a moment. The dominants respected one, respected the subs of one another, and the subs did the same. Everyone acted in a mature responsable way and enjoyed themselves. K

Petruchio -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/27/2006 6:49:45 PM)
quote: Petruchio, you should get to know some of us! We are actually pretty easy to understand. I LIKE you, seaturtle, but I can't get inside your head, is what I meant. Does that make more sense?

Guilty1974 -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/28/2006 1:43:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BeeQueen if i ever get published i ll let u know If not, put it online yourself for the benefit of the community, or ask a bdsm organisation to do so. Perhaps Datenslag could help you? Roel

IronBear -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/28/2006 8:55:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel The person who really makes headway in a social setting of any kind doesn’t criticize others or complain. He/she is interested in all others, is honest and offers praise when warranted. He/she is a good listener and encourages others to talk about themselves and their interests. He/she learns from everyone and as the person being heard feels the respect given, it is returned. If this fails kick their asses. That's some pretty sound advise ES... Normally when I do get to a social function (often I go to make my Neets happy whereas I'd probably stay home or go fishing), I'm the bloke who will be pleasant and curtious to people but will rapidly gravitate to a place in the darkest corner and sit with a cigarette (if permitted) and a drink and, with my back firmly to a wall, watch people, the dynamics of the group and the games people play. This is partly a matter of ingrained habbit, socialising when working (so the focus is on my client who I'm protecting), and strangely, a natural shyness. It doesn't help that many people watch me and are aware that I'm scanning crowds for people of evil intent or trouble makers etc, and think "Plain Clothed Cop".. Still it is difficult to break a lifetime habbit even if it does tend to make people uncomfortable. If however, I am amongst people I know and am comfortable with, then you have described my usuall social activities.. I guess in the final analysis, I'm protective of those (women) with me, I don't start any problems and in fact go along way to try to difuse things if they occure. I am happiest when the people I am socialising with or those at the function are enjoying themselves..

BeeQueen -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/28/2006 12:35:09 PM)
if i ever get published i ll let u know [/quote] If not, put it online yourself for the benefit of the community, or ask a bdsm organisation to do so. Perhaps Datenslag could help you? Roel [/quote] thx for the tip...but since im on university i have to ask if i can publish things i put in ....needs to bee aproved of the professors

Bunkerchief -> RE: The problem with mixing men at munches (2/28/2006 3:49:06 PM)
Perhaps I just attend boring munches but the munches I've attended seem less sexual and less confrontational than what I would suspect Women's Institute meetings to be. I've neither attended a club or fetish fair where there has been such tensions either, though I have attended scenes with underlying tensions but with adrenelin high I've always found these events to be self policed in a none confrontational manner and any potential tension quickly defused. Perhaps I just attend the wrong places for this sort of excitment.

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