Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Revisionist History?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Revisionist History? Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 12:42:12 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch
We have a law that allows law enforcment to aquire library records to find out what books you have been checking out. Oh, they can do it and not tell you.


Not only that but librarians or anyone else who knows can't talk about it without risking being locked up. This means we have no idea how many people's reading habits have been checked out by the government and no way to find out.

Good government requires some degree of transparancy simply because people (including those in government) aren't perfect and any system without checks and balances will tend to become extreme.


_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to Moloch)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 12:59:20 PM   
incognitoinmass


Posts: 428
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
The president does not need the FISA court's permission to monitor international emails and phone calls where a terrorist or suspected terrorist is on one end. This is well established. There are at least 7 court rulings to support the president's prerogative. You will notice that despite all the shrill melodrama, no one is actually suggesting that the practice be ended. Only a fool would.

As to the library books, please. The moon might be made out of green cheese but it's not. There are NO documented cases of any monitoring of library books. The law allows law enforcement to monitor library web surfing, emailing , etc. Seeing as how using library computers was a favorite way for the 9/11 hijackers to communicate this only makes sense.

The Patriot Act allows law enforcement to use the same tools they have been using for years to crack down on organized crime on terrorists.

Do you think the FBI, et al should have less power in fighting terrorism than they do in fighting organized crime? Is that really a position you want to take?

Didn't think so.

_____________________________

But if, baby, I'm the bottom,
You're the top!

(in reply to Moloch)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 1:07:10 PM   
incognitoinmass


Posts: 428
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

Not only that but librarians or anyone else who knows can't talk about it without risking being locked up. This means we have no idea how many people's reading habits have been checked out by the government and no way to find out.

Good government requires some degree of transparancy simply because people (including those in government) aren't perfect and any system without checks and balances will tend to become extreme.


This is simply stuff and nonsense. There is no evidence whatsoever to support your position. And please, don't try to suggest that the very lack of evidence supports your position.

As a matter of fact, there was a news report some weeks back that attested to just the opposite. The FBI wanted to search a library computer and the librarian kept the officials at bay until she could scrub the computers. She is not in jail. She is being lionized by folks just like you.

_____________________________

But if, baby, I'm the bottom,
You're the top!

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 1:35:57 PM   
Moloch


Posts: 1090
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: incognitoinmass

The president does not need the FISA court's permission to monitor international emails and phone calls where a terrorist or suspected terrorist is on one end. This is well established. There are at least 7 court rulings to support the president's prerogative. You will notice that despite all the shrill melodrama, no one is actually suggesting that the practice be ended. Only a fool would.

As to the library books, please. The moon might be made out of green cheese but it's not. There are NO documented cases of any monitoring of library books. The law allows law enforcement to monitor library web surfing, emailing , etc. Seeing as how using library computers was a favorite way for the 9/11 hijackers to communicate this only makes sense.

The Patriot Act allows law enforcement to use the same tools they have been using for years to crack down on organized crime on terrorists.

Do you think the FBI, et al should have less power in fighting terrorism than they do in fighting organized crime? Is that really a position you want to take?

Didn't think so.


1. This is absolutley false. Can you name those seven court rulings? (Trick question, because such court rulings do not exist.) This is not "well established" like you claim. If it were, there would not be such a fierce debate about it. If it were, prominent members of the President's very own party would not be claiming there is no legal authorization for the no-warrant wiretaps. You should stop swallowing everything Karl Rove feeds you before you catch a disease.

2. There are no cases of library records review that are known through Freedom of Information Act requests. Given the trend of this administration to place huge amounts of information under a "classified" heading, including information once freeley avaliable, you cannot say there are no such cases. All we can debate about it whethere the law authorizes it, not wheter it has been used. You fail to talk about the real issue, which is that our federal law enforcment agencies are authorzied to look into the reading habits of Americans without a warrant and without telling them.

3. A coplete lie. Go read RICO (the "organized crime law"). Then read the Patriot Act. They arent even comparable. The Patriot Act both created new powers and drastically expanded other powers.

4. That depends. Does it make me less free? I'd rather be less safe then less free. If I wanted to be safe, I have a big list of dictatorships and socialist states to choose from in Europe and Asia. If I want to be free, there are few places besides United States I can choose. Pardon me for believing that our FREEDOM is what makes us great, not our saftey.

(in reply to incognitoinmass)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 1:47:46 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

If I wanted to be safe, I have a big list of dictatorships and socialist states to choose from in Europe and Asia.


Name one.

Specifically name one where you'd be "safe" criticizing the government's laws or policies as you have done so here. Bonus points if any of them are Muslim States. Actually there is currently one where you could do it - Iraq. But it doesn't currently fall into the "list" you have of "safe dictatorship or socialist states".

(in reply to Moloch)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 1:55:47 PM   
Moloch


Posts: 1090
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

If I wanted to be safe, I have a big list of dictatorships and socialist states to choose from in Europe and Asia.


Name one.

Specifically name one where you'd be "safe" criticizing the government's laws or policies as you have done so here. Bonus points if any of them are Muslim States. Actually there is currently one where you could do it - Iraq. But it doesn't currently fall into the "list" you have of "safe dictatorship or socialist states".


criticizing the government? Thats is a FREEDOM of EXPRESSION not a measure of saftey.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 2:04:36 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

criticizing the government? Thats is a FREEDOM of EXPRESSION not a measure of saftey.


I take it since you didn't name a county - you don't have one. Didn't expect you did.

You're answer says that you are "safe" as long as you don't express yourself and/or your beliefs. I'd agree that is the case for all the dictatorships and socialists states on your list. Is that your goal and do you find comfort in that definition of safety?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 2/28/2006 2:08:31 PM >

(in reply to Moloch)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 2:14:40 PM   
incognitoinmass


Posts: 428
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

. This is absolutley false. Can you name those seven court rulings? (Trick question, because such court rulings do not exist.) This is not "well established" like you claim. If it were, there would not be such a fierce debate about it. If it were, prominent members of the President's very own party would not be claiming there is no legal authorization for the no-warrant wiretaps. You should stop swallowing everything Karl Rove feeds you before you catch a disease


In 1967, the Court decided Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347. Katz involved the warrantless interception of a conversation held by a criminal defendant in a phone booth. The Court held that the Fourth Amendment applies to such conversations, and that in an ordinary criminal prosecution (subject to many exceptions, as noted above) a warrant is required for wiretap information to be admissible in court. The Court specifically noted, however, that its decision did not apply to situations involving national security:

"Whether safeguards other than prior authorization by a magistrate would satisfy the Fourth Amendment in a situation involving the national security is a question not presented by this case."

and


Hamdi was an American citizen who was captured on the battlefield in Afghanistan and sued the Defense Department, claiming that his indefinite detention as an enemy combatant was unconstitutional. The Court upheld Hamdi's detention, while also ruling that he was entitled to a limited hearing regarding the facts of his detention. The government offered alternative theories in support of Hamdi's detention; the Court's plurality opinion describes them as follows:

"The Government maintains that no explicit congressional authorization is required, because the Executive possesses plenary authority to detain pursuant to Article II of the Constitution. We do not reach the question whether Article II provides such authority, however, because we agree with the Government's alternative position, that Congress has in fact authorized Hamdi's detention through the AUMF [the post-September 11 Authorization for the Use of Military Force].

The Court noted that apprehending military combatants is a necessary incident of the use of military force:

"We conclude that detention of individuals falling into the limited category we are considering, for the duration of the particular conflict in which they were captured, is so fundamental and accepted an incident to war as to be an exercise of the "necessary and appropriate force" Congress has authorized the President to use."

Thus, neither the language of the Constitution nor the Supreme Court’s jurisprudence can justify a claim that the NSA program is illegal. While the Court has never specifically ruled on the issue, its decisions are entirely consistent with the administration's view that the President has the inherent constitutional authority to obtain foreign intelligence information through warrantless searches.

and

This specific question was first addressed by the Fifth Circuit in United States v. [Cassius] Clay, 430 F.2d 165 (5th Cir. 1970). In the course of its opinion rejecting defendant’s claim that his conviction was based on information obtained from illegal wiretaps, the court wrote:

"The fifth wiretap was not disclosed to defendant because the District Court found that the surveillance was lawful, having been authorized by the Attorney General, for the purpose of obtaining foreign intelligence information. The Supreme Court has not yet decided whether electronic surveillance for the purpose of obtaining foreign intelligence information is constitutionally permissible [citation omitted], though Mr. Justice White has expressed the view that such surveillance does not violate the Fourth Amendment. [citation omitted]
We…discern no constitutional prohibition against the fifth wiretap. Section 605 of Title 47, U.S.C., is a general prohibition against publication or use of communications obtained by wiretapping, but we do not read the section as forbidding the President, or his representative, from ordering wiretap surveillance to obtain foreign intelligence in the national interest."

and

In 1974, the Third Circuit decided United States v. Butenko, 494 F.2d 593 (3rd Cir. 1974), where the defendant was convicted of espionage. The court wrote:

"In sum, we hold that, in the circumstances of this case, prior judicial authorization was not required since the district court found that the surveillances of Ivanov were “conducted and maintained solely for the purpose of gathering foreign intelligence information"and

Three years later, the Ninth Circuit decided United States v. Buck, 548 F.2d 871 (9th Cir. 1977), a firearms prosecution. The court said:

"Foreign security wiretaps are a recognized exception to the general warrant requirement…."

and

In 1980, the Fourth Circuit decided United States v. Truong, another criminal prosecution that arose out of the defendant’s spying on behalf of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. The case squarely presented the issue of the executive branch’s inherent power to conduct warrantless surveillance for national security purposes:

"The defendants raise a substantial challenge to their convictions by arguing that the surveillance conducted by the FBI violated the Fourth Amendment and that all the evidence uncovered through that surveillance must consequently be suppressed. As has been stated, the government did not seek a warrant for the eavesdropping on Truong’s phone conversations or the bugging of his apartment. Instead, it relied upon a “foreign intelligence” exception to the Fourth Amendment’s warrant requirement. In the area of foreign intelligence, the government contends, the President may authorize surveillance without seeking a judicial warrant because of his constitutional prerogatives in the area of foreign affairs."

The court agreed with the government’s position:

"For several reasons, the needs of the executive are so compelling in the area of foreign intelligence, unlike the area of domestic security, that a uniform warrant requirement would, following [United States v. United States District Court, 407 U.S. 297 (1972)], “unduly frustrate” the President in carrying out his foreign affairs responsibilities. First of all, attempts to counter foreign threats to the national security require the utmost stealth, speed and secrecy. A warrant requirement would add a procedural hurdle that would reduce the flexibility of executive foreign intelligence activities, in some cases delay executive response to foreign intelligence threats, and increase the chance of leaks regarding sensitive executive operations."

The court held that warrantless searches for foreign intelligence purposes are constitutional, as long as the “object of the search or the surveillance is a foreign power, its agent or collaborators,” and the search is conducted “primarily” for foreign intelligence reasons.

and

The state of the law was summed up by the Second Circuit in United States v. Duggan, 743 F.2d 59 (1984), a terrorism case in which the court, among other rulings, upheld the constitutionality of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), which was adopted in 1981. The court wrote:

"Prior to the enactment of FISA, virtually every court that had addressed the issue had concluded that the President had the inherent power to conduct warrantless electronic surveillance to collect foreign intelligence information, and that such surveillances constituted an exception to the warrant requirement of the Fourth Amendment."

and

Finally, in 2002, the United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review decided Sealed Case No. 02-001. This case arose out of a provision of the Patriot Act that was intended to break down the “wall” between law enforcement and intelligence gathering. The Patriot Act modified Truong’s “primary purpose” test by providing that surveillance under FISA was proper if intelligence gathering was one “significant” purpose of the intercept. In the course of discussing the constitutional underpinnings (or lack thereof) of the Truong test, the court wrote:

"The Truong court, as did all the other courts to have decided the issue, held that the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information. It was incumbent upon the court, therefore, to determine the boundaries of that constitutional authority in the case before it. We take for granted that the President does have that authority and, assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President’s constitutional power. The question before us is the reverse, does FISA amplify the President’s power by providing a mechanism that at least approaches a classic warrant and which therefore supports the government’s contention that FISA searches are constitutionally reasonable"


It’s worth noting that all of the cases cited above involved warrantless searches inside the United States. The NSA program, in contrast, involves international communications only, and the intercepts take place at least in part, and perhaps wholly, outside the United States. Thus, the NSA case is even clearer than the cases that have already upheld Presidential power.

Tip o the hat to the attorneys at Powerline http://powerlineblog.com/archives/012631.php




_____________________________

But if, baby, I'm the bottom,
You're the top!

(in reply to Moloch)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 2:26:06 PM   
incognitoinmass


Posts: 428
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

There are no cases of library records review that are known through Freedom of Information Act requests. Given the trend of this administration to place huge amounts of information under a "classified" heading, including information once freeley avaliable, you cannot say there are no such cases. All we can debate about it whethere the law authorizes it, not wheter it has been used. You fail to talk about the real issue, which is that our federal law enforcment agencies are authorzied to look into the reading habits of Americans without a warrant and without telling them.


Yes, the last refuge of the conspiracy theorist: The fact that there is no evidence whatsoever to support my paranoid fantasies merely proves the existence of the conspiracy.

As to the language of the Act itself, it may be found here: http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010747.php#010747

Read it. And then please point out the language you find troubling. If I might further quote from my favorite trio of attorneys:

Several things will immediately jump out at anyone patient enough to read section 215. First, it doesn't mention libraries. It authorizes the FBI to seek an order permitting it to obtain "tangible things," among which are records and documents of all types. There is no obvious reason why this section should have provoked hysteria about libraries and bookstores.

Second, the statute requires the FBI to obtain an order from the FISA court, following a procedure that was first established during the 1970s. So the FBI can't unilaterally subpoena anything.

Third, the statute specifically provides that no such order can be based on activities that are protected by the First Amendment.


Furthermore, if you had your way...

[An attorney], as counsel of record for any party in any civil lawsuit venued in any state or federal court in the United States, can obtain records from libraries and bookstores. But the FBI [couldn't], at least not if it is conducting a terrorism investigation.

Your position is simply foolish. Wishing a reality that doesn't exist.

Again, I would counsel you to reflect on why you wish this to be true, since it so clearly isn't.


_____________________________

But if, baby, I'm the bottom,
You're the top!

(in reply to Moloch)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 2:30:37 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: incognitoinmass

quote:

Not only that but librarians or anyone else who knows can't talk about it without risking being locked up. This means we have no idea how many people's reading habits have been checked out by the government and no way to find out.

Good government requires some degree of transparancy simply because people (including those in government) aren't perfect and any system without checks and balances will tend to become extreme.


This is simply stuff and nonsense. There is no evidence whatsoever to support your position. And please, don't try to suggest that the very lack of evidence supports your position.

As a matter of fact, there was a news report some weeks back that attested to just the opposite. The FBI wanted to search a library computer and the librarian kept the officials at bay until she could scrub the computers. She is not in jail. She is being lionized by folks just like you.


Citation? What was her name and where did this happen? I follow this stuff pretty carefully having had a father who was brushed by McCarthy's web and I've read about no such incident



_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to incognitoinmass)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 2:34:49 PM   
incognitoinmass


Posts: 428
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

A coplete lie. Go read RICO (the "organized crime law"). Then read the Patriot Act. They arent even comparable. The Patriot Act both created new powers and drastically expanded other powers.


Such as what, exactly?

_____________________________

But if, baby, I'm the bottom,
You're the top!

(in reply to Moloch)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 2:35:33 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: incognitoinmass
[An attorney], as counsel of record for any party in any civil lawsuit venued in any state or federal court in the United States, can obtain records from libraries and bookstores. But the FBI [couldn't], at least not if it is conducting a terrorism investigation.



But it wouldn't be secret. That's the fear that many of us who lived through the CoIntelPro days when the FBI was conducting an illegal war on freedom of expression. The difference is these days it's legal.


_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to incognitoinmass)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 2:44:59 PM   
incognitoinmass


Posts: 428
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

Citation? What was her name and where did this happen? I follow this stuff pretty carefully having had a father who was brushed by McCarthy's web and I've read about no such incident


One example came from Newton, Mass., on Jan. 18, after someone used a public-library computer to email a terrorist-attack threat to Brandeis University. Many school buildings were evacuated, and FBI agents rushed to the library hoping to track down the email sender in time to prevent an attack. Once there, however, they were held off for some nine hours by library director Kathy Glick-Weil--because they didn't have a warrant. Newton's mayor later praised Ms. Glick-Weil for "protecting the sense of privacy of many, many innocent users of the computers." More important, it seems, than protecting the lives of many, many innocent people who could have died if the threat had turned out to be imminent.

Wall Street Journal

Ms Glick was not arrested and is not in jail.

Imagine that.


_____________________________

But if, baby, I'm the bottom,
You're the top!

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 2:48:41 PM   
incognitoinmass


Posts: 428
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

But it wouldn't be secret. That's the fear that many of us who lived through the CoIntelPro days when the FBI was conducting an illegal war on freedom of expression. The difference is these days it's legal.




That makes no sense. It's a criminal/espionage investigation, of course it's going to be secret. Probable cause must be demonstrated and a warrant obtained. This is a no brainer.

< Message edited by incognitoinmass -- 2/28/2006 2:50:02 PM >


_____________________________

But if, baby, I'm the bottom,
You're the top!

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 2:58:20 PM   
incognitoinmass


Posts: 428
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

That depends. Does it make me less free? I'd rather be less safe then less free. If I wanted to be safe, I have a big list of dictatorships and socialist states to choose from in Europe and Asia. If I want to be free, there are few places besides United States I can choose. Pardon me for believing that our FREEDOM is what makes us great, not our saftey.


Do you object to being searched and scanned at the airport? Is this not a reasonable precaution? And yet this intrudes on your freedoms, does it not? You have chosen to trade a small bit of your freedom. Might as well move to a dictatorship!

And don't even get me started on seat belt and helmet laws......LOL

We trade freedom for safety all the time. And in a time of war, we need to be extra vigilant.

Or don't you think so?



_____________________________

But if, baby, I'm the bottom,
You're the top!

(in reply to Moloch)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 3:19:14 PM   
incognitoinmass


Posts: 428
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

That's the fear that many of us who lived through the CoIntelPro days when the FBI was conducting an illegal war on freedom of expression


I lived through the same time and have no such fear. Of course, I didn't fancy myself a subversive and as such do not find such fears useful in promoting my self concept, either.

Stuck in the 60's, man.

_____________________________

But if, baby, I'm the bottom,
You're the top!

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 4:19:05 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: incognitoinmass

quote:

That's the fear that many of us who lived through the CoIntelPro days when the FBI was conducting an illegal war on freedom of expression


I lived through the same time and have no such fear. Of course, I didn't fancy myself a subversive and as such do not find such fears useful in promoting my self concept, either.

Stuck in the 60's, man.


Well, I hope it works for you. Didn't work for Martin Nieomoeller.

He learned.


_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to incognitoinmass)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 4:32:47 PM   
incognitoinmass


Posts: 428
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

Well, I hope it works for you. Didn't work for Martin Nieomoeller.

He learned.


Yeah, this is Nazi Germany all over again. Please.

The last refuge of left wing drama queen: equate your political opponents with Nazis.

That's just lame.

_____________________________

But if, baby, I'm the bottom,
You're the top!

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 4:47:19 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
I have one.........

You could stand on a streetcorner in 2006 and call Helmut Kohl a cocksucker.........

Nope, goddamit; you couldn't ........CREPO would be on you with truncheons in less than a second...........


Ron

If you don't know what this means........
Then at least GOOGLE a little............

(MnB, not specific to you because I know you get it.....I am merely buttressing the point)
So for the short-fingered, I just agreed wholeheartedly with this post............

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 4:53:23 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Well, I hope it works for you. Didn't work for Martin Nieomoeller.


You know, ideally the man's name should be spelled correctly, Martin Niemoeller. Then maybe he should be quoted accurately:

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me.


Note - No mention of the Catholics. Why? From the source document:
quote:

But when we asked him years ago about the addition of the Roman Catholics, he said, "I never said it. They can take care of themselves." (Not particularly friendly, perhaps, remembered today in the modern climate of Catholic/Protestant rapprochement; but the report has the virtue of telling the truth.)
Niemoeller knew the sequence of Nazi assault, because he was there. Any average student of the third Reich should be able to give the record accurately; it is a shocking display of professional incompetence when materials that are supposed to be vetted by specialists can be issued that are simply contrary to the record. Even if a corrupt text appears in print, whether published by an ignoramus or a special pleasure, the literate reader should catch the mistake.

Entire Article: http://www.christianethicstoday.com/Issue/009/First%20They%20Came%20for%20the%20Jews%20By%20Franklin%20H%20Littell_009_29_.htm

There have also been versions where he's alleged to have addressed a line about the "them" coming for the homosexuals, it is also false. Over the years the man's thoughts have been corrupted to suit many special interests. Who knows, by November he may be given as a quote reference about "them" coming for the Democrats.

Obviously Germany in 1937 wasn't one of the dictatorship run countries where it was "safe". However since he did survive 8 years in a concentration camp maybe that defines "safe" to some.

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Revisionist History? Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109