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RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 4:55:16 PM   
incognitoinmass


Posts: 428
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline 		It is now a criminal offence to insult the French flag or national anthem. Booing the Marseillaise now carries the risk of a fine of 7,500 euros and six months in prison.


Geez, if we could just me more like France........

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RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 6:08:09 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I actually believe we have laws somewhat on this order, tho; truth be told; I am not sure there is a fine in euros, they haven't been updated them for a while and they are enforced rather unevenly.


Ron

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RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 7:46:43 PM   
Moloch


Posts: 1090
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quote:

ORIGINAL: incognitoinmass

quote:

Well, I hope it works for you. Didn't work for Martin Nieomoeller.

He learned.


Yeah, this is Nazi Germany all over again. Please.

The last refuge of left wing drama queen: equate your political opponents with Nazis.

That's just lame.


Left wing? Thats funny I head the same complains from the right wingers. Ostriches stick their head in the sand when startled or thereatened.

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RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 10:15:02 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

quote:

ORIGINAL: incognitoinmass

quote:

Well, I hope it works for you. Didn't work for Martin Nieomoeller.

He learned.


Yeah, this is Nazi Germany all over again. Please.

The last refuge of left wing drama queen: equate your political opponents with Nazis.

That's just lame.


Left wing? Thats funny I head the same complains from the right wingers. Ostriches stick their head in the sand when startled or thereatened.


You'll notice that when he doesn't have an answer, he goes to name calling. That sort of thing tells more about the person who calling the name than the person who is being attacked.

He said the situation didn't bother him because he thought it didn't affect him. I cited someone who had felt the same way. His response? Call names.

Sad but a common trait in American politics... sadder still that it seems to be the domain these days of one side.

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RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 10:22:32 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren
Sad but a common trait in American politics... sadder still that it seems to be the domain these days of one side.


John, I gotta tell you, in my estimation, most Americans do not display the fuckin' courage of anything that could be misconstrued as politics.......
Even as optimistic that you still are........sorry, buddy.

Ron Melby

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RE: Revisionist History? - 2/28/2006 11:04:10 PM   
Gauge


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Joined: 6/17/2005
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quote:

It's your own rampant paranoia.

But, hey, if it gives your life an edginess you crave, then believe what you will.

First rule of any good conspiracy theorist: You have to want it to be true.

So, ask yourself, why do you want your little Orwellian vision to be true?


It is not a matter of wanting it to be true. It is not a matter of convincing myself that 1984 types of things are not possible. I proposed a thought, a possibility, not a conspiracy theory. I read the article that I sited and it scared the hell out of me especially because of the item about the intelligence about the Chinese not invading Korea and the government being wrong about it and that is no longer available for public consumption. If you have ever read 1984, history was controlled by the government to fit their own agendas. Anything that made the government look bad was eliminated from recorded history and it according to them, it never happened.

I am not going to cite cases of this because that was not my intent of starting this thread. My intent was to put that thought out there to be pondered, thought about and argued. The fact that civil liberties are slowly disappearing from the USA is a disturbing trend. The really tragic thing is by the time we notice that all our rights are gone, it is already too late.

The controversy over wiretaps is a good one because it is not absolutely clearly defined as to why to tap a phone in the first place. Under the guise of "foreign intelligence" what is stopping the government from tapping a call I make to England? Clearly nothing can stop them.

So, while you may laugh at me for my "conspiracy theories" I don't believe that is what I offered. I offered food for thought. Take it as you will.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

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RE: Revisionist History? - 3/1/2006 8:02:11 AM   
incognitoinmass


Posts: 428
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

You'll notice that when he doesn't have an answer, he goes to name calling. That sort of thing tells more about the person who calling the name than the person who is being attacked.

I cited someone who had felt the same way. His response? Call names.

Sad but a common trait in American politics... sadder still that it seems to be the domain these days of one side.
,

You sought refuge in the standard Nazi reference and I called you on it. Live with it. You have yet to substantiate in any meaningful way your assumptions.

I can't help that you 'feel' this way or that. It is unfortunate that you 'feel' this way. However, since you do not ground your 'feelings' in any kind of reality, you leave us to puzzle over the psychological basis for your 'feelings.'


quote:

He said the situation didn't bother him because he thought it didn't affect him


It doesn't bother me because I have a reality based existence. I don't need your paronoid world view to be true for me. You apparently do. And that poses an interesting question that I have raised here before: why is so important to you that this Nazi redux vision of current America be true for you?


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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Revisionist History? - 3/1/2006 8:05:12 AM   
incognitoinmass


Posts: 428
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline 		Well, there may be some archaic statute on some town's books somewhere but there is no federal law as there is in France.


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RE: Revisionist History? - 3/1/2006 8:09:32 AM   
Moloch


Posts: 1090
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline 		Its not a "feel", once you live under someones thumb with fear for your life and your family you will understand where the "feel" comes from, you will know what freedom is, and you will learn to value and cherish it, instead of "ignoring tinfoil hat lunatics".

You dont know what freedom is untill you turly lost it.

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RE: Revisionist History? - 3/1/2006 8:14:01 AM   
incognitoinmass


Posts: 428
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From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

Sad but a common trait in American politics... sadder still that it seems to be the domain these days of one side


You obviously didn't watch any of the recent Senate Judiciary Committee hearings for Justice Alito.

Visit the single most popular blog in the country http://www.dailykos.com/. Spend a little time there and then try to make the statement of yours I quoted above with a straight face.

There are rude and sometimes nasty extremists and both ends of the political spectrum. The difference today is that the extreme on the left has taken over the debate on that side of the aisle. It is interesting in a lab experiment sort of way to watch a whole political movement or party becoming completely unhinged. Sad, really. The country needs two viable political parties.

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But if, baby, I'm the bottom,
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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Revisionist History? - 3/1/2006 8:18:26 AM   
incognitoinmass


Posts: 428
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

The fact that civil liberties are slowly disappearing from the USA is a disturbing trend. The really tragic thing is by the time we notice that all our rights are gone, it is already too late.


They are? Disappearing? Really? Name one. Or at least name one that you disagree with. For example, letting people search and scan your luggage at airports could be considered an infringement on your civil liberties but you might agree to the wisdom of it.

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RE: Revisionist History? - 3/1/2006 8:24:23 AM   
Moloch


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quote:

one. Or at least name one that you disagree with. For example, letting people search and scan your luggage at airports could be considered an infringement on your civil liberties but you might agree to the wisdom of it.


No I simple point of a finger and the magic word "Suspected Terrorist" instantly suspends your constitutional rights.

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RE: Revisionist History? - 3/1/2006 8:24:24 AM   
incognitoinmass


Posts: 428
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

The controversy over wiretaps is a good one because it is not absolutely clearly defined as to why to tap a phone in the first place. Under the guise of "foreign intelligence" what is stopping the government from tapping a call I make to England? Clearly nothing can stop them.

So, while you may laugh at me for my "conspiracy theories" I don't believe that is what I offered. I offered food for thought. Take it as you will.


Nothing is stopping the government from seizing your property and shooting you in the head either ----except that it is not legal.

The fallacy with your argument is that it assumes a premise that you can not support. i.e. that your government wants to and would do all these terrible bad things. You cannot show any instance where any of this bad stuff you fret about as actually happened. Just that it 'could.' Well, the moon 'could' be made out of green cheese, but it isn't.

That's why it is so easy to characterize this type of thinking as conspiracy mongering.

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But if, baby, I'm the bottom,
You're the top!

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Revisionist History? - 3/1/2006 8:27:06 AM   
incognitoinmass


Posts: 428
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

Its not a "feel", once you live under someones thumb with fear for your life and your family you will understand where the "feel" comes from, you will know what freedom is, and you will learn to value and cherish it, instead of "ignoring tinfoil hat lunatics".

You dont know what freedom is untill you turly lost it.


Yes, well, this isn't communist eastern Europe nor is it Nazi Germany in 1933. And if you think that it is you have not made a reality based assessment. It just 'feels' that way to you.

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You're the top!

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Revisionist History? - 3/1/2006 8:31:06 AM   
incognitoinmass


Posts: 428
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

No I simple point of a finger and the magic word "Suspected Terrorist" instantly suspends your constitutional rights


Terrorists don't have constitutional rights.

Again, this type of thinking is dependent on a premise you can not support [see earlier post].



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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Revisionist History? - 3/1/2006 8:45:01 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: incognitoinmass

Yes, well, this isn't communist eastern Europe nor is it Nazi Germany in 1933. And if you think that it is you have not made a reality based assessment. It just 'feels' that way to you.


Some are concerned with the "slipperly slope." Although 9-11 was not the Riechstag Fire, the Republicans did use the event to enhance the executive's powers, go to war in IRAQ, and gain more seats in Congress.

So the question is, what shifts in power will the next event trigger?

Without 9-11, how could you rationalize what's going on in GITMO? How could you rationalize the US policy of rendition and Abu Gharib?

What do you think of Dick Cheney and his underlings going around the State Department and the CIA to create a climate of war hysteria to invade IRAQ? (Then turning around and trying to blame the CIA for the botched Intel!!)

I tell you how I feel. I feel like the US has been hijacked by a bunch of nutcases without a firm grasp on reality but a staunch belief in their own ideological righteousness. Kind of reminds me of OBL in some ironic way.

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RE: Revisionist History? - 3/1/2006 9:02:35 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		OK, I'll bite. The right to an abortion in South Dakota.

Case closed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: incognitoinmass

quote:

The fact that civil liberties are slowly disappearing from the USA is a disturbing trend. The really tragic thing is by the time we notice that all our rights are gone, it is already too late.


They are? Disappearing? Really? Name one.


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RE: Revisionist History? - 3/1/2006 9:18:20 AM   
Gauge


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Joined: 6/17/2005
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quote:

Nothing is stopping the government from seizing your property and shooting you in the head either ----except that it is not legal.

The fallacy with your argument is that it assumes a premise that you can not support. i.e. that your government wants to and would do all these terrible bad things. You cannot show any instance where any of this bad stuff you fret about as actually happened. Just that it 'could.' Well, the moon 'could' be made out of green cheese, but it isn't.

That's why it is so easy to characterize this type of thinking as conspiracy mongering.


Conspiracy mongering? You have got to be kidding. I pointed to two substantial cases. The New York Times article and I referenced (albeit I did not link an article) the recent headlines about the government wanting to get a hold of Google's Internet search records.

It is funny that the only point you can defend your position with is airport security. I have not mentioned airport security once. Now that I have... Of course it is damned inconvenient, but sadly a necessary evil that we must tolerate.

Someone pointed out that all the government has to do now to take your freedoms away is to declare you a "suspected terrorist." Sounds suspiciously like the "Thought Criminal" mentality to me.

How about the tracking technology that is being used? GPS, On-Star, for those that have EZPass for the turnpikes. Hell, your ATM card leaves an electronic footprint every time you use it. It is no secret that large cities have gone to placing cameras around the city in an effort to reduce crime. There is also other technology being developed to scan your face and run it against a known terrorist database. These devices would be placed in airports and cities and would have an electronic scan of your face, recording the time and date you passed that point.

Now, since I know you will scoff heartily at me for offering the above mentioned items, nowhere have I stated that the government is using these things. I merely present it as a potential. Your comment about the moon potentially being made of green cheese is kind of silly because we know that men have landed on the moon and it, indeed is not made of green cheese. We do not know, however, how our electronic footprints might be monitored and used against us in the future.

I am not offering the thought that some guy in a black suit is in some dark room somewhere recording every word I type. But the technology is there to do just that. That is scary.

To try to shoot a hole in my argument by saying that I cannot point to any one thing where it has happened is wrong. The reclassification of documents once public is one instance. The Google search records are another.

When I finished 1984 two weeks ago and read these few articles following it, the parallels were sobering. The freedoms that we knowingly or unknowingly give up are still freedoms. The chances are that we will never gain them back. To give the government that much more power to be able to do something like "The Patriot Act" is also scary. Notice how "The Patriot Act" is titled. It carries with it a hidden meaning that if you do not support it that you are not a patriot.

Say what you will. Dismiss what I say as gibberish, hell, don't read the thread anymore if what I am saying bothers you. But don't sit there and tell me that an argument of what is possible based on what is currently happening is folly.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Revisionist History? - 3/1/2006 9:37:01 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

OK, I'll bite. The right to an abortion in South Dakota.

Case closed.


Did that law go into effect and was signed into law while I slept last night? It was passed by the elected state legislators and is on the desk of the elected governor. I respect your intelligence too much to think you don't recognize this move for it's intent. The goal by the laws backers is to ultimately get the decision to the Supreme Court. The only decision and law making entity that is not elected.

I've never had the pleasure of visiting South Dakota, but the good citizens there by majority voted for the people who passed this law. Come next election they will have the opportunity to change that situation. Because you disagree would you invalidate the process and go into South Dakota as some sort of Pro-Abortion coup?

Tom Monaghan, he of Domino Pizza fame, has put $500 Million of his own money on the line to create a city in Florida to be run according to strict Catholic principles. (Article: http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/2006/03/01/the_pizza_popes_utopia.html) In this city there will be not only no abortions, but no birth control of any kind sold, no "porn" offered by the cable provider. Well, good for him, and good for all the people who elect to live there - I won't. What a nice thing choice is, and that is what is missing from any argument by the left.

Missing is that people can still choose. They can vote, they can move. Come to California if you want an abortion, but if you smoke, don't move to Santa Ana where it is illegal to do so outdoors. Sure abortion is a hot button issue, but in my lifetime more freedom infringing laws were put in effect by leftist courts than were ever contemplated by right wing politicians or right wing voters. From the ability to advertise by a legally operating corporation whose product's growth is subsidized by the very government banning it's advertisement, to not being able to let my kids experience the joy that I felt while riding in the back of an open pick-up truck on a back road of NJ. The subject may be more critical, but the tide of court generated proactive laws has been rising for a long time.

There still is no Martin Niemoeller type coming for anyone in the US; unless of course you're get caught breaking those laws passed and in effect. At least here they're public and you know what they are. The choice is always there to generate a plurality to change them, move someplace where they are different or differently enforced, or if you have a spare Billion Dollars or so - start your own city. US - Land of choice and opportunity, land where the majority rules. Pragmatically, why is that a problem?

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RE: Revisionist History? - 3/1/2006 11:22:41 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Exactly. The intent is to overturn Roe v. Wade. Who appointed Alito the Supreme Court? None of this would happen if it weren't for Alito.

By the way, it looks like you can add Mississippi to the list.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I respect your intelligence too much to think you don't recognize this move for it's intent. The goal by the laws backers is to ultimately get the decision to the Supreme Court. The only decision and law making entity that is not elected.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 80
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