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Mercnbeth -> Health-Care Questions (8/19/2009 11:30:36 AM)

Hopefully Barney Frank or some of the other Nazi Hunters will get around to answering a few pragmatic questions.

The average per person cost of health-care in the US for the last reported period, 2007, was $5,711/person. The common number used for those currently uninsured is 46 Million. Employing those numbers the cost of this program should be expected to reach $262,706,000,000 per year.
  • What specific provisions in the current Bill reduce that cost estimation? If those numbers are incorrect please adjust them accordingly, with sources, and use whatever number generated going forward.
  • Whatever the number; who's going to pay for it?
  • The +$325,000 earners are commonly pointed to fund the Bill. How many taxpayers or taxpaying families fall into that targeted demographic and how much more will have to come from each individual or family in this tax base?
  • Why create another bureaucracy when Medicaid, Medicare, Military, and Congress all represent federal health care programs in place?



LotusSong -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/19/2009 1:00:26 PM)

I've processed insurance claims, sold insurance, reviewed insurance begining in 1982. I've working in hospital business offices and managed doctors' offices in my working career. So those credentials given.. I now will tell you how this all began. WE CAUSED IT. The public would wine about the doctor "charging too much" and how the insurance companies should "put their foot down" and regulate what they would pay the doctors and hospitals. Voila! The birth of the HMOs. We wanted the power of the insurance companies to review claims with doctors and nurses THEY hired.. who knew nothing of you or your case personally (like your attending physician did) to determine your benefits. So the insurance companies came up with a wonderful idea to make sure THEY aren't "ovecharged". They worked out the preferred provider network.. a group that agrees to accept what the insurance company determines is the proper course of treatment as to what they will pay... and grants the doctor so much money a year to work with and if he's a good boy and doesn't go over, they let him keep the excess. Which leaves the patient not getting all the tests they might need to diagnose the problem or worse yet..your doctor would dump you on to another doctor in the network causing him to use HIS yearly insurance allotment.

Now about the death panel whoo-whoo. That has been going on for decades. Ever have your parent in their later years be recommended NOT to have surgery because of their age?



mnottertail -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/19/2009 1:07:20 PM)

  • Why create another bureaucracy when Medicaid, Medicare, Military, and Congress all represent federal health care programs in place?
    I think these should come under the national umbrella of US healthcare, lotta good stuff in place, lotta fucked up shit, but we know what it is and we can get this all together and tweak whats there for everyone.
     
    One way of paying for a great deal of it is to de-incentify the insurance lobby, and stick that money into the economy for some real use.
     
      
    		•



    LotusSong -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/19/2009 1:10:11 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mnottertail

  • Why create another bureaucracy when Medicaid, Medicare, Military, and Congress all represent federal health care programs in place?
    I think these should come under the national umbrella of US healthcare, lotta good stuff in place, lotta fucked up shit, but we know what it is and we can get this all together and tweak whats there for everyone.
     
    One way of paying for a great deal of it is to de-incentify the insurance lobby, and stick that money into the economy for some real use.
     
      



    • That would work if greed wasn't so rampant.



    mnottertail -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/19/2009 1:11:38 PM)

    Yeah, well, we are all talking about a perfect world here, aren't we, Lotus?



    LotusSong -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/19/2009 1:15:03 PM)

    Another issue is that hospitals cannot refuse treatment to anyone based on whether they have insurance or not. This is why emergency rooms are used for stuffy noses and other trivial sicknesses. ER is for LIFE threatening issues..not just because your um is keeping you up at night.



    Mercnbeth -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/19/2009 2:40:22 PM)

    quote:

    Ever have your parent in their later years be recommended NOT to have surgery because of their age?


    I wish I could represent that were the case. You see, they have GM Union, or Teachers Union insurance, plus Medicare. My intervention is the only restraint. Until I relocated them to the left coast, they were on the preferred customer lists for 3-4 doctors and a hospital or two. In the past year, I've eliminated 4 medications, and prevented 2 hospitalizations; but still can't stay on top of the marketers, especially the Medicare genre.

    As I mentioned previously, they have 5 motorized wheel-chairs, two, the 'scooter' variety, are hangaring in our garage. I've already given one to charity and have another waiting to go. As we speak, she's getting a new manual wheel chair delivered, ordered by her physical therapist (insurance authorized) at her assisted living facility. ALL of them were paid through either Insurance or Medicare. There is no governmental agency monitoring the expenditures. The chair marketers only need to determine they haven't gotten a new one in (I think) two or three years.

    Think there could be a little 'kick-back' going on with the physical therapist? Think this is a unique story? There are about 300 people at their care facility, those without some form of chair, motorized or manual, represent the minority. Thinking about how many they all the residents have boggles the mind.

    The same entity, the US government, will be handling the new health care program. Any doubt why the PAC and special interest groups, like wheel chair providers, are putting big money into the campaign coffers of those pushing this through?

    How much 'trickle down' medical care comes to those needed it, will me minimal compared to the waste of resources and resulting profits of the vendors.

    Maybe the whole Bill could be financed with simple administration management and audit of Medicare? But that won't happen. What representative of either party would risk cutting off a major source of campaign funds? Who do you think is paying for the campaign to increase their customer base by 46 Million in the first place?



    shannie -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/19/2009 5:56:25 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

    e average per person cost of health-care in the US for the last reported period, 2007, was $5,711/person. The common number used for those currently uninsured is 46 Million. Employing those numbers the cost of this program should be expected to reach $262,706,000,000 per year.
    • What specific provisions in the current Bill reduce that cost estimation? If those numbers are incorrect please adjust them accordingly, with sources, and use whatever number generated going forward.


    What reduces that number? One of the major components of all of this (and perhaps the driving component) is that the majority of the uninsured will be forced to buy corporate health insurance and pay for it themselves. 

    Both the President, and all the corporate henchmen in Congress, say they support this idea (forcing every American to buy this corporate product) as long as there is "a hardship exception." As though the only issue is "whether the individual can afford it."  Nothing is said about the absolute violation of personal autonomy and choice, or the invasion of privacy (the data bases to confirm compliance, just like with car insurance).

    (Yes, that was talked about with the "public option," but what about forcing people to buy anything at all? )

    So it turns out half the plan is forcing people to buy corporate health insurance, and the other half is using public money to buy corporate health insurance for the poor. Communism with a corporate logo.




    housesub4you -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 2:49:52 AM)

    What do you think  one of the things liberals are asking for is open up medicare to all, but get rid of that asinine part where the government can't negotiate prices with pharmaceutical firms.  Which is why medicare pays 40-80% more than just about anybody else for drugs and so many people go to Canada to get their prescriptions filled

    My mom goes to Windsor once every 3 months for her meds, if she bought them here the cost would be over $700 bucks, she gets the same drugs, from the same company for under $100.  Medicare still pays for them but Canada negotiates with pharmaceutical firms for a lower cost. 


    Here is the tax breakdown from mediamatters

    As it stands, a House proposal would tax family incomes over $350,000 at one percent, with a maximum of $1,500 in additional tax. Family incomes over $500,000 would be taxed at 1.5 percent, up to $9,000.  And family incomes over $1 million would be taxed at 5.4 percent, or $9,000+. 








    Brain -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 3:32:07 AM)

    House Democrats request detailed records from industry opposed to health legislation

    Democrats on a House committee are seeking detailed financial records from dozens of large insurance companies, officials disclosed Tuesday, part of an investigation into "executive compensation and other business practices" in an industry opposed to President Barack Obama's plan to overhaul health care.

    The request included records relating to compensation of highly paid employees, documents relating to companies' premium income and claims payments, and information on expenses stemming from any event held outside company facilities in the past 2 1/2 years.

    The requests were issued at a time when Obama's health care proposal is under intense attack from Republicans and other critics, including the health insurance industry. Much of the opposition focuses on proposals for the government to sell insurance in competition with private carriers.

    Among the documents requested were records relating to compensation paid to any company executive earning more than $500,000 in any year from 2003 to 2008.

    Spokesmen for three large insurance companies, Aetna, UnitedHealth Group Inc., and WellPoint Inc., confirmed the firms had received the letters but declined comment.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=8361250&page=1





    rulemylife -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 5:32:36 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

    Hopefully Barney Frank or some of the other Nazi Hunters will get around to answering a few pragmatic questions.

    The average per person cost of health-care in the US for the last reported period, 2007, was $5,711/person. The common number used for those currently uninsured is 46 Million. Employing those numbers the cost of this program should be expected to reach $262,706,000,000 per year.


    Isn't that the whole reason for health care reform?

    That the U.S. is paying more and getting less?

    From your link:

    Compared to other developed nations, the U.S. spends more on health care per capita and devotes a greater share of its GDP to health. 

    Since 1980, the U.S. also has had among the highest average annual growth rates in per capita spending on health care. 

    Despite this relatively high level of spending, the U.S. does not appear to provide substantially greater health resources to its citizens,10 or achieve substantially better health benchmarks, compared to other developed countries.11

    This growing gap between health spending in the U.S. and that of other developed countries may encourage policymakers to look more closely at what people in the U.S. are getting for their far higher and faster growing spending on health care.








    Mercnbeth -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 6:36:19 AM)

    quote:

    That the U.S. is paying more and getting less?
    Where is the savings coming from in the Bill that will reduce the number being reported?



    Lostkitten3 -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 7:37:20 AM)

    A challenge to Republicans. A bill that seeks to end the debate on which side of the aisle they actually sit on.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTh-Yu9RfF0



    Mercnbeth -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 8:01:47 AM)

    Don't know why nobody supporting this Bill has addressed the questions, but this looks like the obvious reason why the Administration and Congress doesn't want to answer them. They are on the payroll of the companies expecting to benefit.

    POLITICAL PAYOFF FUELS HEALTH CARE INITIATIVE

    quote:

    Coalitions of interest groups running at least $24 million in pro-overhaul ads hired GMMB, which worked for Obama's 2008 campaign and whose partners include a top Obama campaign strategist. They also hired AKPD Message and Media, which was founded by David Axelrod, a top adviser to Obama's campaign and now to the White House. AKPD did work for Obama's campaign, and Axelrod's son Michael and Obama's campaign manager David Plouffe work there.

    AKPD and GMMB both proudly proclaim their connections to Obama on their Web sites.

    AKPD has a full page on Axelrod that includes pictures of Obama. In one photo, Obama hugs Plouffe on election night.

    "We are deeply honored to have been part of Barack Obama's historic campaign to change America and the world," GMMB says on its Web site. GMMB's partners include Jim Margolis, a senior strategist for Obama's presidential campaign.

    Both GMMB and AKPD also have worked for Democrats this year. The Democratic National Committee paid AKPD at least $106,000 for polling, media production, communication consulting and travel costs from February through April. The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee paid GMMB roughly $75,000 from February through June for ads. And GMMB took in at least $9,000 this year from Senate leader Reid's political action committee for communications consulting.
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Lostkitten3
    A challenge to Republicans. A bill that seeks to end the debate on which side of the aisle they actually sit on.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTh-Yu9RfF0
    With no ability to amend or change one factor of any Bill proposed, what is this relevant? So what? Trying to distinguish the differences between the parties is a fools errand. They are in it for the payoff and payback; as the above article documents.



    housesub4you -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 9:02:23 AM)

    So you are implying that No health insurance company is spending money opposing health care reform?  So it's ok for people opposed to health care reform to accept money and for all the ads being placed by the big 7 insurance companies to spend millions per day in TV  ads

    Or the fact that in the last 3 months health care lobbies have been donating millions to GOP elected official?

    It has been on the news for at least 2 months now, covered by everyone except Fox





    Mercnbeth -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 9:51:39 AM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: housesub4you

    So you are implying that No health insurance company is spending money opposing health care reform?  So it's ok for people opposed to health care reform to accept money and for all the ads being placed by the big 7 insurance companies to spend millions per day in TV  ads

    Or the fact that in the last 3 months health care lobbies have been donating millions to GOP elected official?

    It has been on the news for at least 2 months now, covered by everyone except Fox

    No.

    I''m happy you recognize that each side has an agenda - NEITHER of which point to a solution to the problem, BOTH serving personal, and special interests purposes.



    Brain -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 10:22:29 AM)

    Dennis Kucinich-HealthCare briefing in Washington, DC

    Quizzery is making up his or her own facts. American health insurance is far more expensive than what Brits or the French pay in taxes; besides, Americans are already paying for ridiculous war- and military spending. Single-payer would save Americans a fortune and reinvigorate the economy. Quizzery prefers the status quo: Death and sickness for uninsured Americans.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWXRwrYa4oU

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

    Hopefully Barney Frank or some of the other Nazi Hunters will get around to answering a few pragmatic questions.

    The average per person cost of health-care in the US for the last reported period, 2007, was $5,711/person. The common number used for those currently uninsured is 46 Million. Employing those numbers the cost of this program should be expected to reach $262,706,000,000 per year.
    • What specific provisions in the current Bill reduce that cost estimation? If those numbers are incorrect please adjust them accordingly, with sources, and use whatever number generated going forward.
    • Whatever the number; who's going to pay for it?
    • The +$325,000 earners are commonly pointed to fund the Bill. How many taxpayers or taxpaying families fall into that targeted demographic and how much more will have to come from each individual or family in this tax base?
    • Why create another bureaucracy when Medicaid, Medicare, Military, and Congress all represent federal health care programs in place?





    Musicmystery -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 10:25:00 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: shannie

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

    The average per person cost of health-care in the US for the last reported period, 2007, was $5,711/person. The common number used for those currently uninsured is 46 Million. Employing those numbers the cost of this program should be expected to reach $262,706,000,000 per year.
    • What specific provisions in the current Bill reduce that cost estimation? If those numbers are incorrect please adjust them accordingly, with sources, and use whatever number generated going forward.


    What reduces that number? One of the major components of all of this (and perhaps the driving component) is that the majority of the uninsured will be forced to buy corporate health insurance and pay for it themselves. 



    What reduces it is bringing in the part those figures ignore.

    Insuring those 46 million does NOT cost another $5711/person, as insurance spreads the risk around, thus lowering the cost. That is the entire concept of insurance. Adding such a substantial number of new people to the pool will (1) lower the cost of insurance across the board simply by spreading the risk, and (2) prevent high costs for uninsured people waiting for high cost emergencies before seeking health care.

    My complete health care costs this year--doctor, dentist, vision--are $800. I could easily pay that, and much more. I have health insurance in case something catastrophic (and expensive) hits. I can do that because there's a large pool.

    Yes, people with expensive conditions will also be included in the pool. Besides a moral stance, though--they are a minority of people, not a 46 million person drain.

    If we DON'T insure these people, the cost will be far greater--it already rises rapidly every year. We must act.




    Brain -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 10:38:06 AM)

    YouTube - Billionaires for Wealthcare

    Healthcare for those who can't afford it is socialism according to Billionaires for wealthcare.

    http://billionairesforwealthcare.com
    　



    Brain -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 10:43:12 AM)


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHVwrCzRUX0&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fbillionairesforwealthcare%2Ecom%2FBillionairesForWealthcare%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Brain

    YouTube - Billionaires for Wealthcare

    Healthcare for those who can't afford it is socialism according to Billionaires for wealthcare.

    http://billionairesforwealthcare.com
    　





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