RE: Health-Care Questions (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 11:10:05 AM)

quote:

Insuring those 46 million does NOT cost another $5711/person, as insurance spreads the risk around, thus lowering the cost.

Incorrect employment of the number. Read the notes to the tables a few more times and everything documented points to the fact that the $5711 cost per person in the US is not the cost of insurance per person, it is the cost of care. That won't go down when more people use it, it is consistent.

In other words, your annual health cost of $800 averaged with someone who has $10,622. Were you both previously uninsured, the average cost of adding both of you to any program would be $5711.

The table referenced doesn't report insurance costs, it represented "Total Health Expenditures". Unless you're saying that all 46,000,000 newly covered people will all average a health care cost of less than $5711 you still have to come up with the total, $262,706,000,000 per year. More likely higher in the first year when all these first timer's go visit doctors.


PS - Glad you really didn't use the block function. I enjoy the exchange.




LotusSong -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 11:36:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Ever have your parent in their later years be recommended NOT to have surgery because of their age?


I wish I could represent that were the case. You see, they have GM Union, or Teachers Union insurance, plus Medicare. My intervention is the only restraint. Until I relocated them to the left coast, they were on the preferred customer lists for 3-4 doctors and a hospital or two. In the past year, I've eliminated 4 medications, and prevented 2 hospitalizations; but still can't stay on top of the marketers, especially the Medicare genre.

As I mentioned previously, they have 5 motorized wheel-chairs, two, the 'scooter' variety, are hangaring in our garage. I've already given one to charity and have another waiting to go. As we speak, she's getting a new manual wheel chair delivered, ordered by her physical therapist (insurance authorized) at her assisted living facility. ALL of them were paid through either Insurance or Medicare. There is no governmental agency monitoring the expenditures. The chair marketers only need to determine they haven't gotten a new one in (I think) two or three years.

Think there could be a little 'kick-back' going on with the physical therapist? Think this is a unique story? There are about 300 people at their care facility, those without some form of chair, motorized or manual, represent the minority. Thinking about how many they all the residents have boggles the mind.

The same entity, the US government, will be handling the new health care program. Any doubt why the PAC and special interest groups, like wheel chair providers, are putting big money into the campaign coffers of those pushing this through?

How much 'trickle down' medical care comes to those needed it, will me minimal compared to the waste of resources and resulting profits of the vendors.

Maybe the whole Bill could be financed with simple administration management and audit of Medicare? But that won't happen. What representative of either party would risk cutting off a major source of campaign funds? Who do you think is paying for the campaign to increase their customer base by 46 Million in the first place?

So basically, there will be no change in the service availability. I know that with my privatge insurance and it was the gold
standard of insurance, I waited 8 hours in two emergency rooms to have a gallbladder that was going into peritonitis to be removed and that was considered emergency surgery. This was in 2001.

Two years ago, I waited 7 months to get a new power chair and only after the "review board" deemed the elevation feature as a personal convenience and a luxery. I got my neurologist on the phone with the doctor that declaired such a denial and then in 5 minutes I had what I needed. Geesch. People will always have to be informed and involved in their own care instead of just taking it on the chin at the mercy of the insurance company.

I wonder how many of us fretting about the government's bill out there actually have READ it cover to cover?




Arpig -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 11:42:53 AM)

Fast reply
There is one flaw in your math Merc. The $5711+ per person already includes the care the uninsured get. There wouldn't be any substantial increase simply because the care of the uninsured is already factored into the averages. When somebody without insurance goes into the ER, the care they get is not free. The hospital factors in the cost those unpaid services when determining what they charge those who do have insurance.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 11:54:26 AM)

quote:

So basically, there will be no change in the service availability.
That is the best case scenario. However you'll have 46 Million more people potentially in line for services with the same infrastructure. You think there are thousands of potential Doctors who see this Bill as a confirming reason to start a practice? You need to be above the 1% of intelligence to become a Doctor. Appreciating that there is at least a bit of 'service to my fellow man involved'; there is also consideration to personal finance and getting a 'return' on your investment of schooling, time & money. You'll be relying on payment from the government. Motivating, or do you go back and get your law degree and decide to go for the real money - politics.

Think that will improve service availability?

quote:

People will always have to be informed and involved in their own care instead of just taking it on the chin at the mercy of the insurance company
Exactly! Ideally you don't apply that only to exchanges with insurance companies.

Always consider that any CSR on the phone with you is working from a script (employers no longer pay for thinking employees) whose job it is to get you off the phone without doing anything that will cost the entity any money. Ideally they get you to agree to wait, sometimes with the promise of a follow up that never comes. If you do agree with any delay, get names, dates, and the next step. Or do what I do - get the owner/manager on the phone and have a 'chat' with them. Anyone who knows me understands and appreciates the negative implications of my 'chats'.

quote:

I wonder how many of us fretting about the government's bill out there actually have READ it cover to cover?
I wish I could represent I have, but I don't think even a Spielberg/Lucas movie version would be understandable. There are so many cross references and disconnected passages that in generates enough confusion to be quoted and 'prove' either side's position.

That's why I boiled it down to a few questions. I'd love to see a consensus of answers from those who are responsible for writing it.




Brain -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 1:56:18 PM)

Tavis Smiley . Archives . Wednesday, August 19, 2009 PBS
August 19,2009

Former Vermont governor and DNC chair Howard Dean weighs in on the healthcare reform debate and speculates on the impact of a bill not passing at all. Tavis also pays tribute to news legend and 60 Minutes creator Don Hewitt, including clips from his two appearances on the show.

Howard Dean served six terms as Vermont's governor, before running for the '04 Democratic presidential nomination. In '05, he was tapped to chair the DNC and, later, founded Democracy for America. He began his political career in the Vermont legislature and served as lieutenant governor. Before entering politics, he received his M.D. from the Albert Einstein College of Medicine and practiced internal medicine. In his new book, Howard Dean's Prescription for Real Healthcare Reform, he addresses how to overcome today's crisis.

WATCH

Former DNC chair responds to the possiblity of taking a public health option off the table in a reform bill. (1:41)

http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/archive/200908/20090819.html





Mercnbeth -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 2:08:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
Tavis Smiley . Archives . Wednesday, August 19, 2009 PBS
August 19,2009
Former Vermont governor and DNC chair Howard Dean weighs in on the healthcare reform debate and speculates on the impact of a bill not passing at all. WATCH
Former DNC chair responds to the possiblity of taking a public health option off the table in a reform bill. (1:41)
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/archive/200908/20090819.html


VERY insightful Brain, especially your comments and points, they speak volumes of your intellectual approach to the issues at hand! But so good it you had to post it multiple threads? Trotting out Tom Dean as an voice of reason? CONSIDER THE SOURCE

This Democrat doesn't even think that insuring the uninsured is what the debate is all about:
quote:

Rep. Mike Ross (D-Ark.) said on Wednesday that providing healthcare to uninsured Americans is "not what this healthcare reform debate is about."

In making his comments, Ross, who is the centrist Blue Dogs' health reform point man, questioned one of the primary healthcare goals of the White House and Democratic leaders.
What about the uninsured?

The Democratic party seems to be a scream away from total anarchy.





Mercnbeth -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 2:45:20 PM)

quote:

There is one flaw in your math Merc. The $5711+ per person already includes the care the uninsured get.
I don't interpret that way MM. 46 Million more people 'insured' and no additional cost?

I think if anyone in the government interpreted the data that way they would, and should, stand up and announce that covering an additional 46 Million people won't cost anyone anything.

See that happening?




cadenas -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 2:45:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Hopefully Barney Frank or some of the other Nazi Hunters will get around to answering a few pragmatic questions.

The average per person cost of health-care in the US for the last reported period, 2007, was $5,711/person. The common number used for those currently uninsured is 46 Million. Employing those numbers the cost of this program should be expected to reach $262,706,000,000 per year.
  • What specific provisions in the current Bill reduce that cost estimation? If those numbers are incorrect please adjust them accordingly, with sources, and use whatever number generated going forward.


Those numbers indeed are incorrect. First, this is the per-capita number already including the uninsured, so you are double-counting. Second, this is only the cost to health care providers, NOT including the actual cost of health insurance itself. If you take that into account, I believe currently the actual cost to American families is well over $7000.

So we would save more than $1000 per capita right off the bat (assuming the efficiency of Medicare vs. the overhead of private insurance companies).

We would save another considerable amount simply by shifting the currently uninsured from expensive late-stage ER treatment into cheap preventive medicine.

Thus, the cost would go down - maybe to as much as $4000 or so, well in line with the other countries listed in your report.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
  • Whatever the number; who's going to pay for it?


Pays for itself

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
  • The +$325,000 earners are commonly pointed to fund the Bill. How many taxpayers or taxpaying families fall into that targeted demographic and how much more will have to come from each individual or family in this tax base?


I believe this is approximately the top 20%, or 20 million households in the USA. Since their health insurance bill would go down by at least $1000 (along with everybody else's), these super-wealthy families can contribute $20 billion without seeing one penny less in their bank accounts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
  • Why create another bureaucracy when Medicaid, Medicare, Military, and Congress all represent federal health care programs in place?


Agreed. It would be much better if the well-proven and highly efficient Medicare was simply opened up to all age groups. The administration is already in place and has proven that they are capable of handling a very large number of people with minimal overhead.





Mercnbeth -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 3:08:02 PM)

quote:

Those numbers indeed are incorrect. First, this is the per-capita number already including the uninsured,
To be clear, you position is that with 46,000,000 more people 'covered' there would be no additional cost?

I'll repeat, if anyone in the government interpreted the data that way they would, and should, stand up and announce (loudly, proudly, and strongly) that covering an additional 46 Million people won't cost anyone anything.

However...

if that were the case why I believe this is approximately the top 20%, or 20 million households in the USA. Since their health insurance bill would go down by at least $1000 (along with everybody else's), these super-wealthy families can contribute $20 billion without seeing one penny less in their bank accounts. it any additional tax burden being considered to anyone?

Thank you. I Appreciate you initiating more research on my part regarding this issue. As a result I determined your key number on this point is wrong by a multiply of 10x.

Per the last official US Census only 2.4% of US household reported incomes over $200,000. No data is reported beyond that number. What is your source putting the over $325k at 20% of US households?

quote:

Second, this is only the cost to health care providers, NOT including the actual cost of health insurance itself. If you take that into account, I believe currently the actual cost to American families is well over $7000.
Incorrect - check the table again, it is the cost of health care services. The cost of insurance is NOT included, nor is it reported as an expense incurred per outstanding insurance policy.

quote:

Agreed. It would be much better if the well-proven and highly efficient Medicare was simply opened up to all age groups.
That's really funny! I hope you don't mind if I use that in the future, giving you full credit, of course.

"Well-proven" & "Highly efficient"! If it were Jeopardy the question would be; "What two statements are never associated with Medicare?" However, it would only be a $100 answer.




LotusSong -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 5:26:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

When somebody without insurance goes into the ER, the care they get is not free. The hospital factors in the cost those unpaid services when determining what they charge those who do have insurance.


Exactly!




tazzygirl -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 8:52:26 PM)

quote:

Why, then, is our health care so astronomically expensive? Let’s look at some of the conventional beliefs.

• We don’t ration care Unlike citizens in the U.K. and Canada, we don’t have to wait weeks for elective surgery or an MRI. But when researchers from the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health looked at the 15 procedures and tests that account for the majority of waiting lists in other countries, they found that they amounted to just 3 percent of costs in the United States, not nearly enough to explain the huge difference in spending.

• Malpractice is the culprit Doctors say their worries about lawsuits drive them to order costly tests and procedures that their patients do not actually need. Malpractice reform will help save money, but not as much as some people believe. The Congressional Budget Office estimates that while tort reforms could lower malpractice-insurance premiums for physicians by as much as 25 to 30 percent, the overall savings to our health care system would be a minuscule one-half percent.

• Inefficient insurance companies are to blame We devote nearly a third of our health care dollars to administrative costs—paper pushing, in effect. (Canada’s single-payer system, by contrast, is a model of efficiency, spending only about 16 percent of its health care dollars on administrative overhead.) If we could be as efficient as Canada, we could save $360 billion each year. That’s a lot of money, but it’s only about one seventh of our total health care spending.

• Consumers aren’t shopping wisely The moral-hazard argument says that because people don’t pay out of pocket, they use more-expensive health care than necessary. Moral hazard says we go to the doctor when we don’t really need to; we insist on getting a CT scan for a twisted ankle when ice and an Ace bandage will do. Experts will tell you that as many as one in four doctor’s-office visits are “social calls,” and nearly half of emergency room visits are for care that could have been handled in a nonemergency setting. But even this argument doesn’t explain why health care costs so much. That’s because 20 percent of patients account for 80 percent of spending, and that 20 percent is made up mostly of the chronically ill. These patients are often sick with multiple conditions—such as diabetes, heart disease, and high blood pressure—and more than half of the money we devote to caring for them is spent when they are in the hospital. People who are sick enough to be hospitalized are generally too ill to be insisting on certain tests or procedures.

Indeed, perhaps the most significant reason Americans are drowning in health care debt may shock you: Americans are getting far too much unnecessary care. Of our total $2.3 trillion health care bill last year, a whopping $500 billion to $700 billion was spent on treatments, tests, and hospitalizations that did nothing to improve our health. Even worse, new evidence suggests that too much health care may actually be killing us. According to estimates by Elliott Fisher, M.D., a noted Dartmouth researcher, unnecessary care leads to the deaths of as many as 30,000 Medicare recipients annually.

The Geography of Health Care

For many Americans the idea that doctors are giving us care we don’t need—and that may actually be harming us—may seem hard to believe. All too often, our interactions with the health care system make us feel that far from getting too much care, we’re getting barely enough. We wait weeks for an appointment, we’re rushed through the visit in ten minutes, and when we go to fill the prescription the doctor wrote, we’re told our insurance company won’t pay for it.

Indeed, one recent study found that due to inefficiencies and the lack of clear standards, patients had just a 50-50 chance of receiving flu shots, aspirin or beta-blockers (for those who had had a heart attack), antibiotics (for those with pneumonia), and other treatments that have been shown to improve health.

At the same time, a mountain of evidence suggests we also are getting care we don’t need. To understand the reasons, it helps to take a look at studies pioneered nearly 40 years ago by John E. Wennberg, M.D., director emeritus of Dartmouth’s Institute for Health Policy and Clinical Practice. As a young researcher at the University of Vermont, Wennberg discovered that there appeared to be little connection between the availability of medical services, the care that people needed, and what they actually got. For example, in Middlebury, a small town south of Burlington, fewer than 10 percent of children under the age of 16 had their tonsils removed. In Morrisville, about a two-hour drive away, nearly 70 percent of children had the procedure. Middlebury wasn’t suffering from a shortage of doctors or hospital beds, and their children weren’t getting fewer sore throats than the children of Morrisville. It turned out that the Morrisville doctors simply believed a more-aggressive approach was best, even though there was no scientific evidence to support that belief. Once Wennberg pointed that out to the Morrisville doctors, they began doing fewer tonsillectomies.

Since then, researchers at Dartmouth and other academic institutions have continued to find wide discrepancies in how much care patients receive in different parts of the country—and the differences can be stunning. For example, if you are a Medicare recipient and you have a heart attack in a region where doctors practice less aggressive care, like Salt Lake City, your care will cost Medicare about $23,500 over the course of a year. But if you have your heart attack in a place like Los Angeles, the bill will be closer to $30,000.

The wide gulf in spending between the two cities is not because of different prices. Sure, everything costs a bit more in Los Angeles, including nurses’ salaries and the laundering of hospital linens, but not enough to account for the extra amount Medicare pays for a heart attack. The reason the same patient’s care costs more there than in Salt Lake City is that doctors and hospitals in Los Angeles tend to give their patients more tests, procedures, and surgeries, and their patients tend to spend more days in the hospital.

But here’s the important part. All that extra care in L.A. doesn’t lead to better outcomes. As it turns out, heart attack patients who receive the most care actually die at slightly higher rates than those who receive less care.

How can more health care be harmful? Just ask Susan Urquhart, 66, an Ann Arbor, Michigan, woman who underwent a hysterectomy she now says was “the worst decision I’ve ever made in my life.” For several years her gynecologist had been urging her to undergo the procedure to treat uterine fibroid tumors, benign growths that can sometimes cause heavy bleeding.

“I had heavy bleeding—I’d had it for years,” says Urquhart. “But it wasn’t interfering with my life.” Even so, her gynecologist warned her that the fibroids were growing and said that the best treatment was to remove Urquhart’s uterus and ovaries. Despite Urquhart’s misgivings about undergoing a surgery for symptoms that did not seem terribly troublesome, she finally consented.

Within weeks after the procedure, she discovered that the side effects of the surgery were far worse than the symptoms caused by her fibroids. Plunged instantly into menopause by the removal of her ovaries, Urquhart had trouble sleeping and began suffering hot flashes and drenching night sweats. Next, she began having trouble with bladder control, a common symptom among women who undergo a hysterectomy. And then her sex drive evaporated. Worst of all, Urquhart’s procedure may not have been necessary in the first place. In one recent study, a panel of gynecologists reviewed the records of 497 women who were told to have a hysterectomy. In 367 cases—70 percent—the panel found that the surgery was not needed. And recommendations, in force since the early 1990s, that gynecologists try less-invasive treatments first have had little effect on the number of surgeries being performed around the country. To this day, according to Ernst G. Bartsich, M.D., clinical associate professor of obstetrics and gynecology at Weill Cornell Medical College in Manhattan, one in three women has had a hysterectomy by age 60, and one in two by age 65.

Unnecessary hysterectomies are but one example of how overtreatment can do more harm than good. Patients undergo back surgery for pain in the absence of evidence that the surgery works. They contract lethal infections while in the hospital for elective procedures. They suffer strokes when they undergo a surgery that, ironically, is intended to prevent stroke. And each year they undergo millions of tests—MRIs, CT scans, blood tests—that do little to help doctors diagnose disease.

....

Looking for Solutions

What all of this suggests is that efforts to rein in our health care costs will have to address the huge number of unnecessary tests, surgeries, doctor visits, and days in the hospital that are all helping to drive up our national medical bill. There are no easy solutions, but let’s look at some of the critical areas where a change in practices—and attitudes—is needed.

• Health information systems Though the technology exists to put all of our medical records online, few hospitals or health care systems in the country have invested in it. In most hospitals, paper records not only waste time but also lead to duplication of effort, creating more costly errors. An estimated 20 percent of tests and radiological scans are repeated simply because they can’t be located or can’t be transmitted from one doctor to another in a timely fashion.

• Shared decision making Doctors say they practice defensive medicine in part to avoid malpractice suits. But a better solution would be reforms that encourage doctors to spend the time needed to explain to patients the tradeoffs between potential treatments. Called shared decision making, this kind of interaction could provide more personalized medicine and would also reduce unnecessary care. Evidence suggests that patients who are truly informed about the risks and benefits of a treatment or a test are more satisfied with the choices they make and often less likely to want expensive invasive procedures. One challenge: Physicians would need protection from lawsuits brought by patients who had a bad result from a less-aggressive approach.

• Evidence-based research It is essential that we gather better scientific evidence for what works in medicine, what doesn’t, and for which patients—and get the word out to doctors. Take the example of spinal fusion to treat acute back pain. We spend more than $16 billion each year on spinal fusions, even though there has never been a rigorous government-funded clinical trial showing that the surgery is superior to other methods of relieving back pain.

• New ways of paying doctors and hospitals To avoid falling into the fee-for-service trap, many of the health care systems that offer the highest quality care have their doctors on salary. Doctors at the Mayo Clinic, for example, all work on salary. This idea is not popular with specialists, the doctors who earn the highest incomes, but many primary care physicians may be willing to try it. Offering decent salaries to primary care doctors would save money by encouraging them to spend the time needed to provide high-quality, low-cost care.

]
http://www.aarpmagazine.org/health/health_care_costs.html

there is more. its worth the read.

health care is so expensive for a multitude of reasons. the uninsured, the uninformed, the too agressive, ect ect ect.

in case you glossed over what i posted, there is a small section related to tort reform. might open a few eyes, might not. however, health care reform will lower costs due to the many areas that will.. and SHOULD... be addressed.




cadenas -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 9:14:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Those numbers indeed are incorrect. First, this is the per-capita number already including the uninsured,
To be clear, you position is that with 46,000,000 more people 'covered' there would be no additional cost?


As Arpig already pointed out, your $5711 already includes that cost.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
I'll repeat, if anyone in the government interpreted the data that way they would, and should, stand up and announce (loudly, proudly, and strongly) that covering an additional 46 Million people won't cost anyone anything.


I think making that claim would be political suicide in the current climate simply because Americans aren't used to that idea. That said, some politicians HAVE loudly, proudly and strongly said so because they could afford to do it due to their specific electoral situation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
However...

if that were the case why I believe this is approximately the top 20%, or 20 million households in the USA. Since their health insurance bill would go down by at least $1000 (along with everybody else's), these super-wealthy families can contribute $20 billion without seeing one penny less in their bank accounts. it any additional tax burden being considered to anyone?

Thank you. I Appreciate you initiating more research on my part regarding this issue. As a result I determined your key number on this point is wrong by a multiply of 10x.


You are correct. I recited the numbers from memory, and misremembered. It still doesn't change much; this income group already is paying a very low income tax compared with the middle class. I just looked up the data on the IRS Web site: in 2007, the top 1% made almost 25% of the total income AFTER deductions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
quote:

Second, this is only the cost to health care providers, NOT including the actual cost of health insurance itself. If you take that into account, I believe currently the actual cost to American families is well over $7000.
Incorrect - check the table again, it is the cost of health care services. The cost of insurance is NOT included, nor is it reported as an expense incurred per outstanding insurance policy.


That's what I was saying, too, sorry if that wasn't clear! Point is that on average, American families currently spend more than $7000 per person on health care - and that's the average of everybody, including uninsured families. So even if we just bring that down to less than $6000, we'd already have a huge success.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
quote:

Agreed. It would be much better if the well-proven and highly efficient Medicare was simply opened up to all age groups.
That's really funny! I hope you don't mind if I use that in the future, giving you full credit, of course.

"Well-proven" & "Highly efficient"! If it were Jeopardy the question would be; "What two statements are never associated with Medicare?" However, it would only be a $100 answer.


I'd argue that any insurance program that has just 4% overhead is highly efficient. Especially compared with the approximately 30% overhead in corporate health insurance.

Or said differently, let's look at how much your $5711 of actual health care value would cost American families in premiums. Medicare: $5949. Private health insurance: $8000.

So, yes, by far the cheapest and simplest solution would be to remove the age restriction on Medicare. Everything is already in place, after all.





cadenas -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 9:36:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Why, then, is our health care so astronomically expensive? Let’s look at some of the conventional beliefs.


Thanks for posting that! I'm sure you are right that there is a multitude of reasons, although I have some doubts about the theory proposed here. This question of "aggressive or mild" treatment arises in other countries the same way, too. And "not aggressive enough" is just as dangerous.

There probably are three more factors that also contribute. One is that too much health care here is driven by non-experts, ranging from commercials for prescription drugs to faith healers (who sometimes cause a patient to delay treatment until it is too late). That's probably something we won't be able to change much; the First Amendment makes sure of that.

And a second, related, reason is that a lot of medical "information" out there is based on urban legend or at best anecdotal evidence. For instance, the prejudice against vaccines has been notoriously hard to eradicate.

A third reason is that our fractured health system and other social support systems actually promote epidemics. For instance, TB can be very expensive to treat, or very cheap and easy if caught early and if the patient complies religiously with the medication scheme. And once it progresses to later stages, a single TB patient endangers even those with good health insurance.

Similarly, we all heard the public-service reminders "if you have H1N1, don't show up for work and don't send your kids to school!" - yet that is not realistic when it means the loss of a couple day's pay, or even the loss of the job.





Rhodes85 -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 10:30:28 PM)

I have to say, shannie has made some very good points. Forcing everyone to buy into it or to go without health insurance seems like nothing more than a corporate/government scam to me.




Brain -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/20/2009 11:21:40 PM)

I would prefer to have one thread on health care, which is what we had originally, but the healthcare thread keeps fragmenting. Obviously if we only had one healthcare thread I would have only posted once. Since there are three threads and I didn’t want anybody to miss my post and I also wanted to treat each thread equally, no preference for one or another, I decided to put the post on all three.

I hope you’re not being sarcastic when you talk about my “intellectual approach.” I happen to like Howard, I’m not sure why, I think the media screwed him over with that scream to make a fool of him on the news.

Mike Ross of course is one of those blue dog democrats and according to Howard in the interview with Tavis Smiley I posted previously, Howard said he thought the blue dogs made the bill a better bill. He thinks that because they are fiscal conservatives, and they demanded changes to bring the costs down.

About the uninsured, many other Democrats are concerned about the uninsured, more than enough to make sure this blue dog doesn’t overlook them. I’m not concerned about a small number of Democrats making their own separate or different comments. In the end I think they will work it all out.

I think to say the party is a scream away from total anarchy is to embellish the facts a little, there are a lot of members of Congress and I don’t think the Democrats have a sadistic monster like Tom Delay to keep everyone in line on a continuous basis.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
Tavis Smiley . Archives . Wednesday, August 19, 2009 PBS
August 19,2009
Former Vermont governor and DNC chair Howard Dean weighs in on the healthcare reform debate and speculates on the impact of a bill not passing at all. WATCH
Former DNC chair responds to the possiblity of taking a public health option off the table in a reform bill. (1:41)
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/archive/200908/20090819.html


VERY insightful Brain, especially your comments and points, they speak volumes of your intellectual approach to the issues at hand! But so good it you had to post it multiple threads? Trotting out Tom Dean as an voice of reason? CONSIDER THE SOURCE

This Democrat doesn't even think that insuring the uninsured is what the debate is all about:
quote:

Rep. Mike Ross (D-Ark.) said on Wednesday that providing healthcare to uninsured Americans is "not what this healthcare reform debate is about."

In making his comments, Ross, who is the centrist Blue Dogs' health reform point man, questioned one of the primary healthcare goals of the White House and Democratic leaders.
What about the uninsured?

The Democratic party seems to be a scream away from total anarchy.







Arpig -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/21/2009 12:34:53 AM)

quote:

See that happening?
Nope, I must in all honesty admit that I don't. You may be right on the interpretation of the numbers, but I don't think I misread. It doesn't really matter, I hope this particular health care reform bill dies quickly, but for entirely different reasons...politics and strange bedfellows and all that.[;)]
As long as the private for profit insurance companies maintain their position as the primary coverage for most Americans, your health care system will continue to be the most expensive in the world, and the rate of increase in that cost will continue to outstrip those of the rest of the world. In addition a larger and larger percentage of the population will be uninsured and the actual care provided will continue to decline. These trends are evident today and they will continue until something is done to actually remedy the situation, not just apply PR band-aids.




Brain -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/21/2009 1:44:15 AM)

Health Care Reforms: So Democrats are You Ready to GO Alone?

In order to get their health care reforms passed it seems that Democrats may be considering making use of a little known political tactic called reconciliation,

http://luvuobama.blogspot.com/2009/08/health-care-reform-so-democrats-are-you_20.html


It's about time. I've had enough Republican bullshit. Now it's time to nail it to a cross!




Brain -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/21/2009 2:52:58 AM)

Public health plan idea followed unlikely path


By RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR, Associated Press Writer Ricardo Alonso-zaldivar, Associated Press Writer – 21 mins ago

WASHINGTON – It started out with a couple of liberal policy wonks. One on each coast.
Along the way, Elizabeth Edwards — sensitized by her own experiences as a cancer patient — helped propel it into presidential politics during her husband's campaign.

The idea of a government medical plan to compete with private insurance might have been just a footnote in an academic paper. Instead it has followed an unlikely path to center stage in the national health care debate. Many Democrats insist any legislation must include a public option, while nearly all Republicans are against it. President Barack
Obama seems uncomfortably stuck in the middle.

A look at the roots of the idea shows that the policy experts who proposed early versions believed the government plan would become one of the largest insurers in the country.

But Obama and other candidates saw it as a compromise between rival Democratic factions. One side wants Medicare-for-all, while the other prefers to subsidize coverage through private insurance plans — as Massachusetts has done. The debate within the party still rages, with Obama in the crossfire.


Former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards was the first Democratic presidential candidate to propose a public option as part of his health care plan, unveiled in 2007. Behind the scenes, his wife, Elizabeth, was a strong advocate of his decision.

In an interview, Elizabeth Edwards said that as the daughter of a Navy captain, she grew up with government health care and found it dependable. Later in life, her sojourn in the medical world as a breast cancer patient opened her eyes to the travails of people who had no insurance, or whose coverage turned out to be unreliable.

"I met people who were constantly coming up against one problem or another," Edwards said. "Even people like me, who have health care, know someone who has been through some misery because they couldn't afford the health care they needed."

Before the 2008 presidential campaign, chances were slim that lawmakers one day would consider government coverage for middle-class workers and their families. Liberals had talked for years about expanding Medicare to cover not just seniors, but all Americans. That's all it seemed to be — talk.

Then in 2001, political scientist Jacob Hacker proposed a plan he called "Medicare Plus." Employers could choose either to offer private insurance or pay a payroll tax to finance coverage for their employees through a health plan modeled on Medicare. Hacker, now at Yale University, retooled his proposal early in 2007 as the presidential campaign geared up. It caught on with core Democratic constituencies.

"The unions fell in love with Jacob's idea," said health economist Len Nichols of the New America Foundation.

Hacker said he wanted to bridge the gap between Democrats who supported a single payer plan like Medicare-for-all and those who wanted to preserve the employer coverage that has served most Americans for a half century.

"I tried to provide a case for seeing common ground between those two positions," Hacker said.

"There's certainly a strong political argument that single payer is not feasible. Threatening (employer) coverage is a political nonstarter, and moving all health care spending onto the public budget is virtually impossible in the current fiscal climate."

Nonetheless, he said estimates showed his public plan would end up covering about half of workers and their families — gaining a powerful position in the market.

On the other side of the country, a Berkeley health policy professor had come up with the idea of a head-to-head competition between a government plan and private plans. Helen Halpin proposed such a scheme in 2002 for California, a state with a history of failed attempts to remake its health care system. The following year, she retooled the plan as a national proposal.

Called the CHOICE Option, Halpin's plan would let people decide whether they wanted government coverage or a private plan.
"May the best model win," Halpin said. "Depending on the preferences of the population, the system could evolve to single payer, but it would be a totally voluntary transition."

Her bet:
The government plan wins.Edwards' health care adviser, Peter Harbage, said he was familiar with both Halpin's idea and Hacker's proposal, and they were discussed in the campaign's deliberations.

"What Helen had here was the idea of choice, and choice as an option," said Harbage, now at the Center for American Progress. "The catch phrases people are using today were part of her paper."

Edwards decided on his health care plan after the campaign set up a private teleconference debate that featured two independent policy experts. One argued for a government-run system, while the other defended a market-based approach like Massachusetts has.

"We were both walking around with phones," said Elizabeth Edwards. "I was listening in." After the debate, her husband decided to go for the market-based approach — with a public option added.

Later on, Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton adopted the public plan. The idea remins popular with the public:
a Kaiser Family Foundation poll this week found 59 percent of Americans support it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090821/ap_on_re_us/us_health_overhaul_public_plan





servantforuse -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/21/2009 7:16:17 AM)

They don't have the stones to go it alone. 2010 is just around the corner and they are worried about being shown the door out of the capital building. Nancy Polosi would have to fly commercial again.




Sanity -> RE: Health-Care Questions (8/21/2009 7:40:48 AM)


Our current system may cost more, but what we have works and it's available. The Canadian system is imploding and Canadians continue crossing over the border seeking treatment:

http://freep.com/article/20090820/BUSINESS06/908200420/1319/

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu_Z3KXoQw


I'm sure there are effective changes we can make to spur on competition and reduce our outrageous lawsuit lotteries, and I could easily agree with many of them, but it would be madness to use Canada for our template.

Canadians are actually looking towards making changes that would make their system look more like ours in order to correct some of the problems they are having.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
Nope, I must in all honesty admit that I don't. You may be right on the interpretation of the numbers, but I don't think I misread. It doesn't really matter, I hope this particular health care reform bill dies quickly, but for entirely different reasons...politics and strange bedfellows and all that.[;)]
As long as the private for profit insurance companies maintain their position as the primary coverage for most Americans, your health care system will continue to be the most expensive in the world, and the rate of increase in that cost will continue to outstrip those of the rest of the world. In addition a larger and larger percentage of the population will be uninsured and the actual care provided will continue to decline. These trends are evident today and they will continue until something is done to actually remedy the situation, not just apply PR band-aids.





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