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RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 12:40:30 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Health care is not a right.  It is not a constitutional right nor is it a fundamental human right.  You may have the right to life but not at the expense of someone else while you have done nothing to pay for it yourself. 

According to the UNs Universal Declaration of Human Rights, I would disagree with you
"
Article 25.
  • (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

The US is part of the UN is it not, how come its jus not happening for ya?


Another GREAT idea for this Administration! Abdicate the sovereignty of the USA and be the first nation to subscribe to live under the UN Charter!

MAGNIFICENT!

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 12:42:34 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Health care is not a right.  It is not a constitutional right nor is it a fundamental human right.  You may have the right to life but not at the expense of someone else while you have done nothing to pay for it yourself. 

According to the UNs Universal Declaration of Human Rights, I would disagree with you
"
Article 25.
  • (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

The US is part of the UN is it not, how come its jus not happening for ya?


Another GREAT idea for this Administration! Abdicate the sovereignty of the USA and be the first nation to subscribe to live under the UN Charter!

MAGNIFICENT!



Then why are we a part of it.

So we can use it when it suits our needs and ignore it when it doesn't?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 12:43:10 PM   
DCWoody


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Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		@Merc (or beth), I'm pretty sure that is a long way from the point that Lucy was making...

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 12:53:53 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

Merc (or beth), I'm pretty sure that is a long way from the point that Lucy was making...

It's Merc, but don't be so sure Woody. Apperently there is at least one who wants to run with the idea and asks the legitmate question; "Then why are we a part of it?"
quote:

Another GREAT idea for this Administration! Abdicate the sovereignty of the USA and be the first nation to subscribe to live under the UN Charter!

MAGNIFICENT!

quote:

Then why are we a part of it.

So we can use it when it suits our needs and ignore it when it doesn't?
I've asked myself that question since working there as in intern for Pat Moynihan in 1975.

RML, I appreciate you being on board with that idea. It would seem to be the great and logical path for this Administration. I think it should be advocated by you to make it a part of the Obama Administration legacy.

Why indeed are we a part of it?

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 12:54:45 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		yeah a million miles away, but pragmatically, It was expected:)
Luce

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 12:57:45 PM   
DCWoody


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Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		There is a difference between pointing out that the usa should follow international law and your outrageous suggestion, putting words into other peoples mouths is never a good idea in political debate. The entire point is moot anyway, as that is really only meant to apply to not refusing people emergency care, or denying them access to medication. Which doesn't happen that often even over there I don't think....and the original point of bringing it up was merely to show that medical care is regarded as a human right.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 1:00:12 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

yeah a million miles away, but pragmatically, It was expected:)
Luce


Why don't you amplify the aspects of your reference to the UN that ARE relevant to your point?

It was in response to the pragmatically factual representation that health coverage is not a US Constitutional Right. Your reply was quoting the UN Charter. Either you feel it relevant to the point of superseding US authority and suggest it is a guaranteed right for all US citizens or you don't.

Which is it?

Hurry up, because RML, is planning a letter writing campaign to the White House.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 1:03:43 PM   
DCWoody


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Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		Merc, if you look at her original post you'll see she DID 'amplify' what specifically she was responding to.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 1:10:49 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

Merc, if you look at her original post you'll see she DID 'amplify' what specifically she was responding to.
This? "The US is part of the UN is it not, how come its jus not happening for ya?"

Well, then I stand by the original reply. The only way that would be germane to the discussion would be if she considered the UN Charter an authority superseding the US Constitution.

Appreciating similar rhetoric from President Obama on this matter in speeches made in the past (Watch the thread hijack this produces requesting sources!) it seems as if, in lieu of a Constitutional Amendment only applicable within our borders, being the first country to tear those borders down and becoming a charter member of the 'Global Union' would be logical.

(in reply to DCWoody)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 1:11:21 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with rml here, this inevitably shows up as a distraction to the real discussion.

Starting with information on ER visits -

"The Uninsured: Access to Medical Care
Main Points
•Emergency departments provide an essential community service and are vital to the nation's health care safety net, caring for everyone, regardless of ability to pay or insurance status.

•Inadequate coverage of the uninsured, cutbacks in Medicare, declining payments by health plans and a medical liability crisis are threatening the ability of emergency physicians to continue to provide high-quality care to everyone.

•ACEP advocates for expansion of health care coverage for the uninsured and underinsured and has taken a leadership role in building a national consensus for universal health coverage.

•The Institute of Medicine in 2006 recommended that Congress consider providing greater reimbursements to large, safety-net hospitals that bear the burden of taking care of uninsured patients.

Q. Who are America's uninsured?
A. Nearly 46 million Americans are uninsured in the United States. More than 8.3 million of the uninsured are children. More than 8 out of 10 uninsured persons are in working families that cannot afford health insurance, and most are not eligible for public programs.

•83 percent of the uninsured are in working families
•62.1 percent live in households with a full-time worker and 21.3 percent with a part-time worker
•17.8 percent of non-elderly Americans are uninsured
•21.2 percent of African-Americans are uninsured
•34.3 percent of Hispanics are uninsured "

http://www.acep.org/patients.aspx?id=25932




quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
If illegal immigrants being given free health care is truly the problem, as conservatives claim, then solve the illegal immigration issue and the issue of their health care disappears.

But the reality is, this country needs and wants the cheap source of labor they provide.

Enjoying the economic benefits of illegal immigrant labor while feigning outrage at how those illegals are costing us money.



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(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 1:18:22 PM   
DCWoody


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Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		Merc, assuming you did look at her post again after my reply, and assuming you're not mentally retarded, and taking into account your previous comments, I can only assume you are deliberately feigning misunderstanding and trolling, so with respect....to some extent....I'm gonna be ignoring you in this thread from now on.

(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 1:24:10 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody
Merc, assuming you did look at her post again after my reply, and assuming you're not mentally retarded, and taking into account your previous comments, I can only assume you are deliberately feigning misunderstanding and trolling, so with respect....to some extent....I'm gonna be ignoring you in this thread from now on.

You do that Woody.

Some people need to call people names when they can't answer a question in an attempt to show the questioning source as ignorant. Me - I find it more effective, and choose to just quote the source.

(in reply to DCWoody)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 1:38:12 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Another GREAT idea for this Administration! Abdicate the sovereignty of the USA and be the first nation to subscribe to live under the UN Charter!

The UN Charter is a treaty ratified by the US and therefore is the law of the land in the US.

However the International Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, which is what Lucy quoted, have never been ratified by the Senate so they are not the law here.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 2:07:37 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Another GREAT idea for this Administration! Abdicate the sovereignty of the USA and be the first nation to subscribe to live under the UN Charter!

The UN Charter is a treaty ratified by the US and therefore is the law of the land in the US.

However the International Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, which is what Lucy quoted, have never been ratified by the Senate so they are not the law here.

Thanks DK, sincerely appreciate my ignorance the regarding the distinction between the UN Charter and the Declaration cited, being corrected!

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 2:19:31 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Merc, read more carefully then please, because  I did exactly that. hint.... look for the bolded part
I in no way cop to your assumption that I think it should supercede the constitution.
It was more a question asking why the that part of the Human rights act isnt deemed important  to the 'general welfare of the citizens' especially seeing as the original declaration of human rights was in the 1940s, its not like its a new and terrible idea.
You grabbed the wrong end of the stick.Made an assumption and we know how well those work.
I havent touched on the constitution before because my knowledge of it is weak (not ignorant). But Im learning, from many angles...the good and the bad

Lucy
Ken, thank you for the explanation
edited to fix a typo





< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 8/21/2009 2:21:46 PM >

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(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 2:42:07 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		Maybe all y'all can help me understand this, but I really, truly don't understand -what- is wrong with taking care of our neighbors, making sure our people have decent healthcare, and a minimally healthy standard of living. I don't grasp why we cannot dictate that our government be allowed to provide the necessary centralization. I don't comprehend why there is even an argument about whether this is necessary or proper. We waste money on so many other things, I simply cannot understand the mentality that would argue that human beings -- FELLOW-- human beings, do not deserve to have a minimally healthy, minimally well nourished, minimally sheltered life. I simply cannot grasp the mentality that would say "I'm not going to give a -damned- thing to anyone else, and let them all just frigging suffer."

DC

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 8/21/2009 2:44:39 PM >

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(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 3:21:30 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Pelosi says NO! to President Obama's "no need for a government run plan".

CONFUSION IN THE RANKS

quote:

Aug. 21 (Bloomberg) -- House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said legislation to revamp the U.S. health-care system won’t get through her chamber unless it creates a government-run insurance program to compete with the private industry.

“There’s no way I can pass a bill in the House of Representatives without a public option,” the California Democrat said at a press conference in San Francisco yesterday.

Pelosi drew a line in the sand on one of the most contentious issues surrounding the health-care overhaul after Obama administration officials earlier suggested the White House might be willing to back away from the public option to win broader support. Republicans and even some Democrats have said the idea is a nonstarter in the Senate.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 4:06:56 PM   
Arpig


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From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline
quote:

The UN Charter is a treaty ratified by the US and therefore is the law of the land in the US.

However the International Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, which is what Lucy quoted, have never been ratified by the Senate so they are not the law here.
Not quite. The Declaration and International Covenant of which it is a part are not treaties. They define the rights referred to in the UN Charter, which is a treaty. Therefore the Declaration is binding on all signatories to the UN Charter, including the US.


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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 5:16:41 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

The UN Charter is a treaty ratified by the US and therefore is the law of the land in the US.

However the International Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, which is what Lucy quoted, have never been ratified by the Senate so they are not the law here.
Not quite. The Declaration and International Covenant of which it is a part are not treaties. They define the rights referred to in the UN Charter, which is a treaty. Therefore the Declaration is binding on all signatories to the UN Charter, including the US.


No. The International Covenants, at least are treaties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Covenant_on_Economic,_Social_and_Cultural_Rights
The US, South Africa, Saudi Arabia and a couple of other nations have never ratified it.

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on h... - 8/21/2009 8:42:36 PM   
shannie


Posts: 200
Joined: 1/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

There is nothing similar to compare or adopt from any foreign health care program because all lack the fundamental piece unique to the US - the US civil tort system. Civil litigation and the associated 'risk management' is the single biggest expense and consideration of any private health care program or facility. Unless it is amended or goes away, it will continue to make costs spiral regardless of any plan.


Cost savings to the corporate entities rise to the top, they don't flow to the bottom. That's a basic principle of economics. Did the bankruptcy bill cause credit card interest rates to drop (as promised)? No, it only caused profits at the top to increase.

Tort reform will make health care worse, not better.  The only thing these giant healthcare/HMO entities are afraid of is litigation. Litigation by and for the people they harm! It's the only thing keeping them in check at all.







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Profile   Post #: 40
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