Healthcare refom in usa, what would americans on here do? (Full Version)

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DCWoody -> Healthcare refom in usa, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 6:31:43 AM)

I'm going to assume that everyone here agrees that the current usa system is mindbogglingly bad, so the question is mostly what to change it to.

Open to other suggestions, but mainly going to be focusing on The UKs NHS and Frances compulsory insurance, because they can be thought of as 'best in class'.

The French system is widely regarded as the best in the world, and the majority of rich nations use similar insurance based systems, in the UK the govt runs the entire system...doctors are employed by the government, it doesn't stand up to the french, but it's much cheaper....hard to say which would be the better method if both nations spent the same per person.


In the UK: Almost everyone uses the NHS, there is private insurance too, but it's not widespread as only relatively expensive stuff for the rich can offer a better service than the NHS. The NHS is funded by taxes, they are non-optional....even if you choose to go private, you still have to pay taxes. The entire NHS is run by the government, although individual areas have a fairly high degree of self management to work to differences in their area, healthcare is generally free at the point of care, but there are highly subsidised charges for some things (e.g dentistry, cue the jokes), these charges aren't applied to people on benefits. Because everything is government run the methods and quality of care can vary somewhat if a different party takes control of parliament, e.g in the last 12 years of Labour control the service has improved considerably, but also got a lot more expensive for the taxpayer. Everyone gets the same relatively high standard of treatment, paperwork & legal stuff is minimal compared to other systems, nowhere else has a system which is both better and cheaper. It is a very authoritarian, left wing system. The cost is about 3/4 that of Frances, and ~1/2 of the usas.


In France everyone uses insurance, which is compulsory, all the insurance companies are non-profit, and heavily heavily regulated, if not controlled by the government outright. There is, again, a private sector but, again, only the rich use it. Treatment generates a bill, which is then mostly refunded by the insurance...because of this hospital visits are a little more tricky if you have no money, but the government works out the general welfare system so that everyone can get & pay for treatment. Many of the additional 'optional' insurance schemes are essentially for paying the difference between the actual bill and the government enforced insurance refund. Most actual practitioners are private practice, so you can choose to go to a very elite expensive Dr if you like....but you'll still only get the government set amount of refund for that sort of treatment/checkup. The refund system automatically means there's notable paperwork/bueracracy no matter how efficiently it's run. The quality of care is the highest anywhere in the world, ensures care for everyone, and allows a great variety of choice for the individual, giving an impression from the individuals point of view of being completely free market, except because it's not really, no-one ever finds themselves unable to pay. On the downside it's pretty much the most expensive system in the world, with the notable exception of the usas madness.


Singapores system has also had much praise, bit singapore is really a city not a country and it probably couldn't be replicated with the same results in a larger nation, Germany may also sound interesting as it's similar to the french but with less government interference behind the scenes, however despite spending almost as much as the french the results are distincly average.

Thoughts?




servantforuse -> RE: Healthcare refom in usa, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 10:29:42 AM)

The 1st thing on my list would be sure that the estimated 12 million illegal aliens now in this country are not covered by whatever plan is adopted. They are not supposed to be here and shouldn't be covered by those who are here legally..




Musicmystery -> RE: Healthcare refom in usa, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 10:33:29 AM)

Right. Let's pay for their care in the emergency rooms instead. That'll teach the fuckers to come work here!

When you're gonna hijack a thread, try not to do it on the second post.





DCWoody -> RE: Healthcare refom in usa, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 10:36:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The 1st thing on my list would be sure that the estimated 12 million illegal aliens now in this country are not covered by whatever plan is adopted. They are not supposed to be here and shouldn't be covered by those who are here legally..


I had kind of taken that as a given....but, you guys are weird with your immigrants.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 11:05:30 AM)

There is nothing similar to compare or adopt from any foreign health care program because all lack the fundamental piece unique to the US - the US civil tort system. Civil litigation and the associated 'risk management' is the single biggest expense and consideration of any private health care program or facility. Unless it is amended or goes away, it will continue to make costs spiral regardless of any plan.

With that consideration what I want is a clear program with a budget and a goal on the table that enables pragmatic debate.

Either in summary or as specific provisions I want to see defined in the Bill:

  • Who qualifies as a user
  • What qualifies as 'care'
  • What is excluded
  • How it integrates with current employee insurance programs
  • How it compares and contrasts to existing Medicaid/Medicare coverage
  • Form of treatment 'authorization'
  • Limits to treatment waiting time
  • Budgeted cost of expected litigation as a percentage of cost
  • What it will cost the taxpayer
  • What it will cost the user
  • What it will cost businesses
  • Mandatory program benchmarking reviews requiring renewal
  • Inclusion of all Federal employees including Congress
  • Quarterly audits of expenditures
  • Significant civil and criminal penalties for any fraud and/or abuse of the program perpetrated by the vendors and the users.



Any Bill that includes the terms "single payer", "public option", "insurance marketplace exchange"; requiring 1000 pages to define them, doesn't qualify.




rulemylife -> RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 11:19:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

There is nothing similar to compare or adopt from any foreign health care program because all lack the fundamental piece unique to the US - the US civil tort system. Civil litigation and the associated 'risk management' is the single biggest expense and consideration of any private health care program or facility. Unless it is amended or goes away, it will continue to make costs spiral regardless of any plan.


Health care tortreform” arguments exposed as false, mythical

Recap: This is the third post in a series. Part I explains that “tort reform” — an idea being pushed by conservatives as the cure for many economic problems, including high health care costs — has never delivered the promised results, yet conservatives keep making the promises. Part II documents how a cabal of extremely wealthy individuals and family trusts has been able to manipulate public opinion to sell “tort reform” to the public.

From Part I:

That’s the theory, anyway. Since 1986 more than half of the 50 states have enacted some kind of tort reform. For example, 34 states have legal limits on punitive damages, and 23 states have capped “non-economic” damages. By now we should be able to measure the real impact of tort reform.

We find in several states that tort reform has significantly reduced rates of medical malpractice insurance paid by physicians. This in turn has helped some states attract more physicians, especially physicians in high-risk practices, such as surgery.

However, we also find, in state after state, that the passage of tort reform laws does nothing to reduce overall health care costs. Health care costs and patient insurance premiums continue to increase at the same rate as before, if not faster. And the promised cost reductions from less “defensive medicine” never materialize.

Further, tort reform does nothing to make medical care safer. And patients whose lives have been devastated by malpractice find it much more difficult after “tort reform” to seek justice in courts.










DCWoody -> RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 11:21:46 AM)

Yeah...that too, I guess that's the problem with doing anything in the usa....everything is so messed up over there it messes up everything else, didn't really want this to be a bash the usa thread though....




servantforuse -> RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 11:31:52 AM)

I don't see it as hijacking a thread. The OP asked what Americans would do. Thats what I would do. ER visits and other care is a huge problem caused by illegals.  




DCWoody -> RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 11:36:06 AM)

I don't see it as hijacking my thread as such, it just didn't occur to me that you'd need to specify it.....I don't think any system anywhere covers 'illegal' immigrants...




servantforuse -> RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 11:38:45 AM)

Ours does. Just ask any hospital administrator, especially those in California, Arizona and Texas. They have to give them care legally here or not..




DCWoody -> RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 11:48:30 AM)

Is that just emergency care and then they're deported, or long term care while you continue to allow them to live and work there?




rulemylife -> RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 11:50:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Ours does. Just ask any hospital administrator, especially those in California, Arizona and Texas. They have to give them care legally here or not..


Which is an illegal immigration issue not a health care issue.




Arpig -> RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 11:56:44 AM)

quote:

Which is an illegal immigration issue not a health care issue.
Well actually it seems to straddle the line a bit....its kinda both.




CreativeDominant -> RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 12:09:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

There is nothing similar to compare or adopt from any foreign health care program because all lack the fundamental piece unique to the US - the US civil tort system. Civil litigation and the associated 'risk management' is the single biggest expense and consideration of any private health care program or facility. Unless it is amended or goes away, it will continue to make costs spiral regardless of any plan.


Health care tortreform” arguments exposed as false, mythical

Recap: This is the third post in a series. Part I explains that “tort reform” — an idea being pushed by conservatives as the cure for many economic problems, including high health care costs — has never delivered the promised results, yet conservatives keep making the promises. Part II documents how a cabal of extremely wealthy individuals and family trusts has been able to manipulate public opinion to sell “tort reform” to the public.

From Part I:

That’s the theory, anyway. Since 1986 more than half of the 50 states have enacted some kind of tort reform. For example, 34 states have legal limits on punitive damages, and 23 states have capped “non-economic” damages. By now we should be able to measure the real impact of tort reform.

We find in several states that tort reform has significantly reduced rates of medical malpractice insurance paid by physicians. This in turn has helped some states attract more physicians, especially physicians in high-risk practices, such as surgery.

However, we also find, in state after state, that the passage of tort reform laws does nothing to reduce overall health care costs. Health care costs and patient insurance premiums continue to increase at the same rate as before, if not faster. And the promised cost reductions from less “defensive medicine” never materialize.

Further, tort reform does nothing to make medical care safer. And patients whose lives have been devastated by malpractice find it much more difficult after “tort reform” to seek justice in courts.
You know...if just once you could come up with something from a site that is really non-partisan or at the very least moderate in nature, your stuff would be a lot more credible.  But what you cite above comes from a "progressive" think tank whose goals are in line with what used to be called "liberal" thought until the term "liberal" fell out of favor.  The term that is favorable?  "Progressive".  A term that has come to mean "progress on the the road to socialism".  Bring us something from sites that deal with those involved in health care, those involved in dealing with the issues of health care and not from lawyers concerned with protecting their rice bowl and not from politicians eager to see a system in place that someone else gets to pay for. 

Health care is not a right.  It is not a constitutional right nor is it a fundamental human right.  You may have the right to life but not at the expense of someone else while you have done nothing to pay for it yourself.  For the poor, there are programs in place.  For the elderly, there are programs in place.  Ask any healthcare provider...myself included...just how well those systems work and then ask most of us...though certainly not all...why we look with suspicion at the idea of the government stepping in to run an insurance program for everyone else.

No matter how much some "progressives" would like to see this country follow the ideal of "from each according to his means, to each according to his needs", it is not set up that way.  The majority of people will not work as hard to succeed and care for others at the cost of what he can give to his own family.




rulemylife -> RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 12:10:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Which is an illegal immigration issue not a health care issue.
Well actually it seems to straddle the line a bit....its kinda both.


No, it isn't.

If illegal immigrants being given free health care is truly the problem, as conservatives claim, then solve the illegal immigration issue and the issue of their health care disappears.

But the reality is, this country needs and wants the cheap source of labor they provide.

Enjoying the economic benefits of illegal immigrant labor while feigning outrage at how those illegals are costing us money.






DCWoody -> RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 12:20:56 PM)

"Health care is not a right.  It is not a constitutional right nor is it a fundamental human right"

I personally.....and I think most of the civilised world, would disagree with that. If it isn't a right, it should be.

Having said that.....extreme as your opinion may seem to me, if you really think like that then I guess it's just a difference of opinon....so that brings up a third option of 'leave it as it is people shouldn't get healthcare unless they can pay for it'.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 12:25:55 PM)

quote:

It is not a constitutional right nor is it a fundamental human right"
I personally... would disagree with that. If it isn't a right, it should be.


I think this is the foundation of a great idea. Lets put the right to 'Health-Care" up for consideration as a Constitutional Amendment and the debate will be over once and for all.




Lucylastic -> RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 12:27:13 PM)

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Health care is not a right.  It is not a constitutional right nor is it a fundamental human right.  You may have the right to life but not at the expense of someone else while you have done nothing to pay for it yourself. 

According to the UNs Universal Declaration of Human Rights, I would disagree with you
"
Article 25.
  • (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

The US is part of the UN is it not, how come its jus not happening for ya?





rulemylife -> RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 12:28:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

You know...if just once you could come up with something from a site that is really non-partisan or at the very least moderate in nature, your stuff would be a lot more credible.  But what you cite above comes from a "progressive" think tank whose goals are in line with what used to be called "liberal" thought until the term "liberal" fell out of favor.  The term that is favorable?  "Progressive".  A term that has come to mean "progress on the the road to socialism".


Well, let me see if I understand this.

I was responding to someone who claimed, without any source, that the problems of the U.S. health care system would be solved by tort reform.

I responded with a documented source.

Yet, I am the one who lacks credibility because you do not approve of the source?

quote:


Bring us something from sites that deal with those involved in health care, those involved in dealing with the issues of health care and not from lawyers concerned with protecting their rice bowl and not from politicians eager to see a system in place that someone else gets to pay for.


Well, since you are the one disputing the source and the facts contained wouldn't it it fall on you to bring us something that proves your point? 

quote:



Health care is not a right.  It is not a constitutional right nor is it a fundamental human right.  You may have the right to life but not at the expense of someone else while you have done nothing to pay for it yourself.  For the poor, there are programs in place.  For the elderly, there are programs in place.  Ask any healthcare provider...myself included...just how well those systems work and then ask most of us...though certainly not all...why we look with suspicion at the idea of the government stepping in to run an insurance program for everyone else.


It never ceases to amaze me that those who claim owning a gun is a fundamental human right guaranteed by the Constitution then go on to to claim that health care is not.


quote:



No matter how much some "progressives" would like to see this country follow the ideal of "from each according to his means, to each according to his needs", it is not set up that way.  The majority of people will not work as hard to succeed and care for others at the cost of what he can give to his own family.


Yes, I'll get mine and fuck everyone else.

Great philosophy.






DCWoody -> RE: Healthcare reform in USA, what would americans on here do? (8/21/2009 12:29:21 PM)

That would probably make things a lot clearer yes....although the idea that you'd have to debate such a thing is kinda giving me culture clash.




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