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Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 7:57:00 AM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline 		Here's an interesting story about the Veteran's Administration and another about the Cash for Clunkers program.

How anyone could want the government involved in their health care is a mystery to me.
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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 7:59:37 AM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		It works very well over here....on the other hand, if you specifically mean the american government you may have a point.
But even so....hard to see how anything could be worse than your current system.....

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 8:02:47 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

How anyone could want the government involved in their health care is a mystery to me.
Let me elucidate you then....
1) It will provide affordable health care to every man woman and child in the US
2) It will improve the health and life expectancy of all Americans
3) It will slow the outrageous rate of growth of the cost of health care.

No other plan or method will do so.

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 8:26:51 AM   
rulemylife


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Status: offline 		HEALTHCARE: AIG vs. the VA

Recently, the LA Times did an investigative report concerning the health care that private contractors from Iraq received upon their return to the States.   The report is a real eye opener when comparing the VA to private health care providers.

Over 31,000 private contractors have been wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Unlike American soldiers who get VA care, the contractors must deal with AIG!   Private insurance companies have collected over 1.5 billion in premiums from Iraq & Afghanistan contractors.    A military audit claimed that those premiums were “high”.   They were so high that often as much money was spent on insurance premiums as was actually paid to the contractor.   And since the insurance premium was included in the contracts between the government and the contractor:  your tax dollars paid those premiums!

So what did we get for our tax money?    AIG rejected 44% of claims involving serious injury and over half of all claims for PTSD. (This included claims for artificial limbs!  As an insurer, how do you deny a man his artificial leg?)

From the onset of the war, there was concern that insurance companies would not process claims quickly.   So the contracts were written requiring AIG to respond to claims within 14 days.   Rather than hurry an investigation, AIG simply denied the initial claims as a matter of course.  Then the claims would go to mediation if the contractor filed an appeal.   If no agreement could be reached (and in more than 1,000 cases they couldn’t reach an agreement) the matter is referred to court.   Now you are looking at approximately two years of litigation before a resolution is reached.   In approximately 75% of the cases that went to court, AIG lost and was ordered to pay the contractor’s medical care.   Then AIG would file an appeal.    And throughout this long process, the contractor is responsible for the cost of his own medical care.

 
The quality of the care is also different between AIG and the VA.    The Rand Corporation recently did a study comparing VA care to private insurers that showed striking differences:

“The patients were randomly selected males aged 35 and older. Based on 294 health indicators in 15 categories of care, they found that overall, VA patients were more likely than patients in the national sample to receive recommended care. In particular, the VA patients received significantly better care for depression, diabetes, hyperlipidemia, and hypertension. The VA also performed consistently better across the spectrum of care, including screening, diagnosis, treatment, and follow-up. The only exception to the pattern of better care in VA facilities was care for acute conditions, for which the two samples were similar.”

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 8:31:02 AM   
Sanity


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Put the two programs together and what do you get?

COFFINS for clunkers. Trade your old folks in for cash!!!




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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 8:39:28 AM   
Aileen1968


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Status: offline 		Yay! I can't wait. The government has proven themselves to be so efficient and cost effective in the past that this should be a no brainer.




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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 8:41:36 AM   
MarsBonfire


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Status: offline 		So. Sanity believes the Fox News lie too.... (no big surprise there) Given his penchant for leaping to a "boob opinion" without research...

Now repeat after me...

THERE ARE NO DEATH PANELS.
THERE ARE NO DEATH PANELS.
THERE ARE NO DEATH PANELS.

Keep repeating that to yourself, Sanity. Eventually you'll start thinking again.

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 8:50:06 AM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		It seems to me that there actually must be...what are described as 'death panels'....there must be someone, or some group of ones, in each american insurance company who decides when to refuse to pay out....

@ Aileen, of all the ~150 governments that run healthcare, none come anywhere close to spending as much as the usa does already. I can make no guarantees....but it's extremely difficult to see how any government system could possibly fail to be cheaper than the current american profit making system.

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 8:53:38 AM   
Aileen1968


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

It seems to me that there actually must be...what are described as 'death panels'....there must be someone, or some group of ones, in each american insurance company who decides when to refuse to pay out....

@ Aileen, of all the ~150 governments that run healthcare, none come anywhere close to spending as much as the usa does already. I can make no guarantees....but it's extremely difficult to see how any government system could possibly fail to be cheaper than the current american profit making system.


I really hope you're right. But I think what will happen will be that those monies that were profits for the health insurance industry will only mulitply and find their way into very deep, corrupt political pockets. Guess who gets to pay that ever increasing bill....the American taxpayer.

edited to add a missing word.

< Message edited by Aileen1968 -- 8/22/2009 8:54:12 AM >

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 8:54:34 AM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		Ah but we are talking about the US Government here, they are,alone among world governments, incapable of running anything properly, that's why the US is such a pitifully powerless and impoverished nation.

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 9:00:46 AM   
Sanity


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No you're right - I'm sure they won't be called Death Panels. They'll probably be called something much more positive, such as, "Obama's Panels Of Happiness, Goodness, Laughter and Delight".

But their purpose will be the same, keeping government health care costs down so that everyone can be covered.

Barack Obama - does grandma really need that new hip? In his own words:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aGrKbfWkzTqc


quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

So. Sanity believes the Fox News lie too.... (no big surprise there) Given his penchant for leaping to a "boob opinion" without research...

Now repeat after me...

THERE ARE NO DEATH PANELS.
THERE ARE NO DEATH PANELS.
THERE ARE NO DEATH PANELS.

Keep repeating that to yourself, Sanity. Eventually you'll start thinking again.


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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 9:00:55 AM   
DCWoody


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Ah but we are talking about the US Government here, they are,alone among world governments, incapable of running anything properly, that's why the US is such a pitifully powerless and impoverished nation.


It must be somewhat confusing to the residents of such a poor tinpot nation to find that their healthcare system, education system, police, prisons, roads, government pensions, the welfare system, immigration controls and local governments are the envy of the western world, and that their electoral system is often pointed to and said, that if you're going to do democracy, for fucks sake do do it like that...

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 9:03:07 AM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		Sanity, on a sensible note...I don't wanna get too involved in whether obamas fiddling will help or not, but the stories about death panels in the NHS are just bullshit, they're not true.

< Message edited by DCWoody -- 8/22/2009 9:04:43 AM >

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 9:06:15 AM   
Sanity


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I've just demonstrated that the death panels are alive and well, not just living but are in fact thriving inside of Obama's head.

NHS and Obamacare are two different things, no one here is talking about NHS except for you.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

Sanity, on a sensible note...I don't wanna get to involved in whether obamas fiddling will help or not, but the stories about death panels in the NHS are just bullshit, they're not true.


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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 9:10:46 AM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		It does spring to mind, there's been clips on the news lately of those sorta americans that're usually talking about their close encounters with aliens...except talking about the nhs.


However, you're right...ya didn't mention it, my bad. Still though, the whole idea of death panels is....outrageous....to think that....whatever obamas system is....will have them, is pretty damn pessimistic.

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 9:16:09 AM   
Sanity


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Again, we have Obama's own words to go on. It's not like people are imagining things, he said it., and quite recently.


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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 9:23:35 AM   
rulemylife


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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


No you're right - I'm sure they won't be called Death Panels. They'll probably be called something much more positive, such as, "Obama's Panels Of Happiness, Goodness, Laughter and Delight".

But their purpose will be the same, keeping government health care costs down so that everyone can be covered.

Barack Obama - does grandma really need that new hip? In his own words:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aGrKbfWkzTqc




The full interview quotes, not the excerpts taken out-of-context by those with an anti-health care reform agenda:

WSJ misrepresents Obama interview to fearmonger about end-of-life


In fact, in the Times interview, Obama made clear an advisory panel is "not determinative, but ... has to be able to give you some guidance." From the Times interview:
THE PRESIDENT: I don't know how much that hip replacement [that Obama's grandmother received shortly before her death] cost. I would have paid out of pocket for that hip replacement just because she's my grandmother. Whether, sort of in the aggregate, society making those decisions to give my grandmother, or everybody else's aging grandparents or parents, a hip replacement when they're terminally ill is a sustainable model, is a very difficult question. If somebody told me that my grandmother couldn't have a hip replacement and she had to lie there in misery in the waning days of her life -- that would be pretty upsetting.

And it's going to be hard for people who don't have the option of paying for it.

THE PRESIDENT: So that's where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues. But that's also a huge driver of cost, right?

I mean, the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health care bill out here.

So how do you -- how do we deal with it?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that's part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It's not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that's part of what I suspect you'll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now. [The New York Times Magazine, 4/28/09]






< Message edited by rulemylife -- 8/22/2009 9:27:13 AM >

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 9:24:30 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

I've just demonstrated that the death panels are alive and well, not just living but are in fact thriving inside of Obama's head.
Bullshit! You have done no such thing.The post you linked to says no such thing either. What Obama said was that expensive treatments for terminally ill patients raises moral questions,which it does. Nowhere in the piece does it mention rationing the care for the elderly nor does it mention setting up any sort of cost effectiveness panel to determine what is and isn't to be done. All he says is that the issue raises some difficult moral issues. Do you do an expensive procedure on a terminally ill patient when that procedure will not prolong the patient`s life. That is what he means by `difficult moral issues`.
The bit at the end about "ruthless pragmatism" he is talking about economic policy (specifically the banking industry) not health care. You,and the other "death panel" hypesters have consistently failed to show that any such thing exists in the House bill for the simple reason that it doesn't.

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 9:26:30 AM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		I dunno, ya gotta be careful about the news media, they're always trying to make stuff seem more interesting afterall, the actual quotes from him are.

“I don’t know how much that hip replacement cost,”

“I would have paid out of pocket for that hip replacement just because she’s my grandmother.”

“you just get into some very difficult moral issues”

“to give my grandmother, or everybody else’s aging grandparents or parents, a hip replacement when they’re terminally ill."

“That’s where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues,”

“The chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health- care bill out here.”

"Ruthless Pragmatism"

Which don't seem particularly damning to me when not presented in with the article, especially seeing the 'ruthless' one is on a different topic. I always try to find the unedited transcript with stuff like that, and that's over here...I imagine the bias in american news is even worse.

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 9:34:45 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		The lady in question got her hip replacement, the fact that being terminally ill and not an ideal candidate for surgery  healthwise is a hell of a lot of the moral questioning too for family of the person.



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