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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 9:37:08 AM

Sanity

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I think that for some reason you are ignoring the obvious, Arpig. People (myself included) sometimes refuse to see things that are right in front of them. It is a part of being human, and in my opinion this is one of those times for you.

Recall how in the MSNBC thread there were those who would not see the problem with that first video clip? Well, here we are in a similar situation but in this case you are the one who refuses to see.

The president laid out his vision, and he made it very clear - there is a lot of money being spent on the care of the elderly and the infirm which could be used for what he considers to be a better purpose.

Try to put your feelings aside and consider the words and context more carefully (bold emphasis mine):

quote:

“I don’t know how much that hip replacement cost,” Obama said in the interview. “I would have paid out of pocket for that hip replacement just because she’s my grandmother.”

Obama said “you just get into some very difficult moral issues” when considering whether “to give my grandmother, or everybody else’s aging grandparents or parents, a hip replacement when they’re terminally ill.

“That’s where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues,” he said in the April 14 interview. “The chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health- care bill out here.”

Obama promised during his presidential campaign that a health-care overhaul would be a top priority, and he said at a Missouri town hall meeting today that he hopes Congress will pass health-care legislation this year.

The issue has been divisive, and finding an answer that will keep costs down while extending coverage to the estimated 46 million Americans without health insurance has eluded past presidents.

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 9:42:51 AM

DCWoody

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I'd perhaps pay more attention to your boldings if they were to the transcript, not to the reporters typings.

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Post #: 22

RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 12:11:05 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

How anyone could want the government involved in their health care is a mystery to me.
Let me elucidate you then....
1) It will provide affordable health care to every man woman and child in the US
2) It will improve the health and life expectancy of all Americans
3) It will slow the outrageous rate of growth of the cost of health care.

No other plan or method will do so.

Well hey they are preaching the faith in socialism for the rich. That means govt. supplied profits for the elderly (Medicare) survival for the poor (Medicaid) with the rest of us paying for it.

The US govt. takes plenty good care of banks and pensions, the military industrial market, tariffs, business subsidies including of course farmers very, very well. To perform those 'free market' [sic] functions is we are told a 'partnership' with the business and health care providers. YEAA...right.

We have an FDIC, a PBGC but oh no...we can't have an FHIC. Let's call it say...the Federal Health Insurance Corp. (let's not forget our investor class and the OPIC and oh yes, farm crop insurance...ALL RUN by the GOVT.)

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 8/22/2009 12:12:25 PM >

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 1:05:35 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The president laid out his vision, and he made it very clear - there is a lot of money being spent on the care of the elderly and the infirm which could be used for what he considers to be a better purpose.

You seriously call this...

quote:

“That’s where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues,” he said in the April 14 interview. “The chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health- care bill out here.”

...laying out a vision and making it clear that he wants to set up these so-called death panels?

It's just incredible how easy it is for you to convince yourself of whatever you want to believe is true. Incredible. There's just no other word for it.

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 1:24:11 PM

Sanity

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Nice theatrics, Panda. Have you had formal training as an actor?

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
...laying out a vision and making it clear that he wants to set up these so-called death panels?

It's just incredible how easy it is for you to convince yourself of whatever you want to believe is true. Incredible. There's just no other word for it.

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 1:37:15 PM

Ialdabaoth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Nice theatrics, Panda. Have you had formal training as an actor?

*sigh* I miss the days before the Republicans learned how to use "I know you are, but what am I?" as a legitimate debating tactic.

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Post #: 26

RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 2:26:01 PM

rightwinghippie

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Thank you RML for posting the source material...

"THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that's part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It's not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that's part of what I suspect you'll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now. [The New York Times Magazine, 4/28/09] "

He wants an independant group, functioning outside the normal political process, guided by Doctors Sceintists and Ethicists. Making decisions, then he says they are not determinative, but just for guidance. Obviously this is not called a death panel, but come on. And then he had that guy Dr Rahn? (a radical who did advocate rationing and pulling the plug back in the 80s and 90s, now he has completely recanted...).

Surley if someone had been a KKK advocate in the 80s you would look a little suspicious of him being on the Civil Rights Commision wouldn't you?

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Post #: 27

RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 4:02:05 PM

OrionTheWolf

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~FR~

It seems that people want to make this either Government run health care or money hungry insurance companies. Both of them are broken systems. I wonder why people are not trying to fix these two systems, so that one or the other can handle things appropriately? Why is it no one is digging into Medicare waste, and improper denial of claims? Medicare is predicted to be bankrupt in what? A decade? The VA has been understaffed and under budget for how long? Two Decades?

People are going to the ER to get basic medical treatment and then since they cannot pay, that is rolled into healthcare costs, so why are some free clinics not set up right next to Hospitals that have ER's? Medicare never says NO as long as all the paperwork is filled out properly, but has a huge amount in fraud being committed against them. Insurance companies are turning down legitimate claims, because there is no financial detriment to do so.

These issues need to be addressed. The floor is rotten, and putting new carpet over it will just make thing look better for a short while.

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 4:53:03 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Put the two programs together and what do you get?

COFFINS for clunkers. Trade your old folks in for cash!!!

Yes while they're hot otherwise they soon could be...soylent green.

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Post #: 29

RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 7:00:08 PM

Arpig

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Actually Sanity,its more a case of you seeing something in front of you that is not there.
Obama says nothing of the sort that you are attributing to him in either the edited version of the interview, nor in the full version of the comments posted earlier in the thread.

quote:

“That’s where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues,” he said in the April 14 interview. “The chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health- care bill out here.”

OK, here he states that there are some serious moral issues that have to be addressed due to the fact that end-of-life health care accounts for a disproportionately large percentage of the total cost of health care. There is nothing here that says one way or the other exactly what moral issues he is referring to nor where he might stand on any of them. The earlier bits about his grandmother implies that he is in favour of things like hip replacements for terminally ill patients if it will better their lives, however there is a point where such surgery becomes pointless. If a person is bedridden because of a bad hip but would otherwise be mobile then there is a point in the surgery,however if a person is bedridden due to the advanced stage of their cancer and would remain bedridden even with the hip replacement then the surgery really isn't justified. This is the sort of "moral issue" he is talking about. He is saying that we have to look at what is being spent on what in the field of palliative care and that we have to figure out what is and what isn't effective or justified,that we can't just keep on paying for things like hip replacements for people who will not benefit from them. In some cases it would be more sensible to focus on pain management for the few remaining weeks of life rather than do major surgery.

"AHA!" you say, "see right there he says there will be a death panel of bureaucrats deciding who gets the surgery and who dies....." And I would say you had a point except that the President said more, he wasn't finished with the thought. He said he wanted to create an independent panel of "doctors, scientists and ethicists" (you will note the absolute absence of actuaries, bureaucrats,and other associated bean-counters) This panel will not make decisions, it will "guide the conversation". So it will examine the various issues and the evidence and come to decisions and from these decisions it will set the parameters of the discussion.

OK so now we have a panel of experts in the field, and they have examined the various issues and given their opinions on them, what then...well Obama still isn't done, he tells us exactly what happens then...."And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place"
A "democratic conversation" That implies voting on things, either directly or indirectly through representatives.
So what Obama in fact is saying is that there are some serious issues that must be addressed regarding the current state of palliative/end-of-life care, and that these issues should be decided through the democratic process in a public debate with expert advice given by an independent group of "doctors,scientists and ethicists".

So Obama's "death panels" would in fact be an advisory group that would issue opinions to be used to guide the public debate...imagine that, a public debate guided by relevant experts rather than TV talking heads and loonie left/right talk radio types.

That is exactly what Obama said in the interview, nothing about death panels or rationing on some cost-effectiveness study. Serious moral issues being decided by a public debate and a democratic process, advised by experts in the relevant fields. Its really not that difficult an idea to grasp, though it is somewhat revolutionary.

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 8:46:46 PM

Brain

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Here is an interesting movie coming out soon.

Michael Moore's 'Capitalism: A Love Story'
http://vodpod.com/watch/2084834-trailer-michael-moores-capitalism-a-love-story

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Post #: 31

RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/22/2009 9:01:46 PM

Arpig

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Shit Brain! What the fuck does that clip have to do with anything being discussed in this thread? Do you even pay attention to which thread you are posting your links in?

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/23/2009 12:50:55 AM

kuppykake

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Watch the movie Sicko... it's a documentary but it's not boring at all promise! Watch it and then see if you can understand.

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Post #: 33

RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/23/2009 7:21:21 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie

Thank you RML for posting the source material...

"THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that's part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It's not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that's part of what I suspect you'll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now. [The New York Times Magazine, 4/28/09] "

He wants an independant group, functioning outside the normal political process, guided by Doctors Sceintists and Ethicists. Making decisions, then he says they are not determinative, but just for guidance. Obviously this is not called a death panel, but come on. And then he had that guy Dr Rahn? (a radical who did advocate rationing and pulling the plug back in the 80s and 90s, now he has completely recanted...).

Surley if someone had been a KKK advocate in the 80s you would look a little suspicious of him being on the Civil Rights Commision wouldn't you?

Since I provided source material, maybe you can return the favor and document the radicalism you claim.

As far as the group operating outside the political process, I can only ask if you are kidding?

Isn't that what the whole "death panel" lie has been about? That the government would be making those determinations.

Presented with evidence that it would be a purely advisory board outside the government you now want to attack it on that basis? That is outside the government?

Somewhat contradictory isn't it? Unless the goal is just to discredit it no matter the facts involved.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 8/23/2009 7:24:04 AM >

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Post #: 34

RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/23/2009 8:05:46 AM

Arpig

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quote:

Unless the goal is just to discredit it no matter the facts involved.

BINGO! We have a winner!

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/23/2009 8:14:19 AM

Sanity

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They're anointed by politicians yet it's claimed they're outside the political process, and they have no real purpose.

I could go on poking holes but it isn't holding any water now, why waste my time on such utter nonsense.

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/23/2009 8:24:58 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

They're anointed by politicians yet it's claimed they're outside the political process, and they have no real purpose.

I could go on poking holes but it isn't holding any water now, why waste my time on such utter nonsense.

I don't know.

Maybe you guys ought to try to get your stories straight.

First we are told it is government-run "death panels" that were the problem.

Now we are being told because it is outside the government that is the real problem.

And now you are saying they have no real purpose, which then begs the question of what you have been complaining about in thread after thread.

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RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/23/2009 8:31:54 AM

Arpig

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The problem,as best as I can figure it, is that Obama is proposing actually getting advice from qualified people and then engaging in a public discussion of difficult moral questions, and then submitting these issues to a democratic decision. Exactly what the problem with this idea is I cannot figure out yet, none of the opponents has actually said what it is about it that is so wrong, they keep saying its wrong because it will do what it won't do. Sort of like saying wearing a seatbelt is wrong because it will prevent your grandma from having her hair done.

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Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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Post #: 38

RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/23/2009 8:32:00 AM

Lucylastic

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Just as an aside here... regarding the Pres grandma
Her age, general health and extent of her cancer would have had more to do with the question of if she was gonna make it thru the hip surgery alive(im talking from a doc point of view) Doing surgery on terminal patients can cause a lot of complications for the patient

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Post #: 39

RE: Goverment run health care? - 8/23/2009 8:37:15 AM

DCWoody

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It seems to me like this is just one comment from potus about people getting advice on dangerous procedures for elderly relatives (which I had assumed happened already over there) which has.....somehow, not sure how....been twisted into 'death panels'....

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