RE: 'Exploding Deficits'

RE: 'Exploding Deficits' (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> RE: 'Exploding Deficits' (8/27/2009 1:49:55 PM)
quote: I am rightly weary of folks who seem to think everything glorious comes from cutting business taxes and abolishing unions and demanding tort reform, all the while they go about making a living "profiting from paper", selling derivatives, and flipping barrels of oil 47 times. You'll have to point out where we are in disagreement in that occurring, or my support of that policy then, or now. Although tort reform has always been a pet project of mine, I know pragmatically having lawyers representing a plurality even larger than the filibuster-proof Democratic majority; it will never happen. Since all the wealth was achieved with the current tort laws in place it obviously wasn't a deterrent to industry. If it hurts anyone, it is the end user of any product and/or service who incurs the additional cost of insurance. But tort reform isn't a consideration impacting any industry. As a way to cut costs, it should be discussed. But no industry will spent $1 of their PAC fund to pursue it when every settlement only affects the people who continue to buy the product. Look no further to the tobacco industry for that example. Billions of dollars worth of law suits, hasn't killed the industry - they just raise their prices to cover the expense and the dupes who continue to purchase their product make the payment. Whether it's a class action tobacco law suit, or a slip & fall at the local bodega; the customers pay, not the industry or the business. quote: Personally, I believe the entitlement generation IS the retirement generation of today. Retirees of today are the experts at wealth redistribution. They even took the "scorched earth" route, forcing their own kids to compete with chinese slave labor rates, just so that wealth bubble could grow a little bit higher. And yes, its true, some have since lost 50% of their STOLEN MONEY in their 401Ks. As we speak, I'm crying a river over the bubble popping prematurely for some. Appreciate your position, but in response you didn't provide an alternative to the position that without private sector investment, personal and corporate, where is the solution in the current policy? You didn't provide an argument against the tax and spend policy being illogical and producing counter productive revenue results. You don't address the deficit payment issue in the face of a future of reduced revenue. You're definition of "STOLEN MONEY" must be very broad. The 'retirement generation' earned money, many at factory jobs and other industries. Their wages were taxed. They invested what was little was left in the hope of being able to live in a comfortable matter at some point of their life. Their investment was used, good or bad, for industries to provide jobs, which generated more taxes. "STOLEN MONEY" to me would represent all the money collected, allegedly for retirement under Social Security, which now has payment in doubt. You biggest argument would be that the current set up requires you and your generation to pay more, because the government didn't reserve for the payments and soon will not be taking in as much as they are obligated to pay. When that happens the decision will have to be made to 'steal' from the people who paid into SS and are waiting for payout, or you taxed at a higher level while very unlikely to see any SS payout? Either way, it appears your putting your best hope and faith into the entity that managed and administered to SS which, were it subject to an audit like the one performed on Madoff, would determine a similar and much more massive Ponzi scheme. quote: You won't recover anything until you bring ethics back to capitalism. Instead, your faith is with ethics in government? I don't know how you can take that position, either considering SS or the lack of any argument to the complicity between Wall Street and government creating the current condition. quote: de-emphasize, re-regulate, (or tax into oblivion) the "paper players". Exactly how will that work? Better yet, WHY will it work? The government hasn't figured out a way to tax funds not employed. You can't get to my assets to tax them, unless I either spend them or invest them. Creating the hurdles, doesn't affect me, or any successful business in the least. If anything, my decision not to jump over them helps me to work less. I appreciate that, but should the time come and I take my 'ball & bat' and go home - my employees would be worse affected by the hurdles a LOT more than me. Like it or not - that is the consequence of your position. quote: Personally, I believe the entitlement generation IS the retirement generation of today. If that really were the case, why do you think you're entitled to a bigger tax percentage of whatever money they've been able to save?

DedicatedDom40 -> RE: 'Exploding Deficits' (8/27/2009 6:23:21 PM)
I'm not defending every one of Obama's policy choices, despite your desire to dispatch me onto such a mission. I simply stated Obama saw one play to keep us afloat, and he made that play. Whether his choice in a crisis makes sense in some long run for us to survive this way and have some quasi-life pussyfooting around under this derivatives WMD cloud was never my assumption. All of your questions on the soundness of Obama's policy towards investment are argumentative and totally contingent upon us accepting that reality, and who says we have, or even should? Personally, there are days I think we would all be better off just letting the financial WMDs go off, rather than being inconvenienced by them from now to eternity. This way, the people who built the bombs would also meet their own demise, financially, from the bombs they built, rather than die peacefully in retirement clutching their wealth after they picked up their ball and bat and went home. The impact would be global, and nobody's wealth or currency would be protected under that scenario. There would be no world economy for wealth to matter. Gold would become as arbitrary as sand or rocks. Upon rebuilding, we could pick some other item or resource to define wealth as. "Stolen money" is the $10 trillion that belonged to future generations, pulled forward and spent by the government over the past 25 years to create bubble economies. Seriously, this chart is NOT normal. Clearly, it was a manufactured event, sponsored by the huge increase in debt since 1981 when we first topped $1 trillion and began the accellerated climb upwards to the levels we have today. Both debt and Dow curve in the same abnormal pattern. This spike is the chart isnt from granny investing, but rather the result of future unborn great-grandkids investing, with granny providing safe-keeping of the proceeds. (yea, right) It was a heist, plain and simple. Money stolen from future generations, and pumped into the economy and "laundered" and "legitimized" by our stock market apparatus under the watch of one particular generation, the people who were in their 40’s in 1981 when all this accelerated, and who are retiring today. Much of the proceeds that current retirees made in this market comprise wealth that was redistributed, by their own hands, from future generations to today's market players. It was the same generation that demanded two tax cuts, one even during a time of war, so they could get their payroll taxes and FICA taxes rebated back to them before they went into retirement and onto the government health plan that, again, their grandkids will pay for. The generational heist enabled by government’s failure could not have succeeded without cooperation of the capitalist system to launder the money. There are three guilty parties, yet some defenders chronically blame only the government’s role. Please do not assume that when you pickup your ball and bat and go home, that 100% of the proceeds in your portfolio are legitimiate. Lastly, you need to stop making assumptions for the sake of arguing fine points. I am neither defending the ethics of government (I'm just saying ethics of capitalism is also in the toilet along with government, so lets not put only capitalism's solution up on the pedestal), nor am I placing my best hope and faith into a government entity that has turned SS into a ponzi scheme. [Mod Note: images removed]

Brain -> RE: 'Exploding Deficits' (8/28/2009 12:25:14 AM)
The spending did the work to bring about an upturn in the economy. You are assuming I am implying only one thing should be concentrated on while all others are ignored. I didn’t say that. You have assumed however, that is what I meant. Taxpayers money should always be spent carefully, for me that is a given and should always be the case. Republicans tried to paint the stimulus as wasteful but I don’t agree that it was, I’m sure there was some waste but there were also many good investments. And some of them were long overdue I might add. Obama did not continue Bush tax cuts because he wanted to, he continued them because he was pressured to do so mainly by Republicans and he wants to be bipartisan but I think it’s a waste of time because Republicans are not interested in being bipartisan but it looks like Obama is going to learn this the hard way. I think Obama made a mistake creating new tax cuts because the Republicans did not become bipartisan and they voted against the stimulus anyway. I don’t agree that John Kerry is a wasteful spender, you would have to provide specific examples for me to change my opinion of him. I just haven’t seen evidence of it in news reports about him. I think all politicians would do better if they were honest and kept their word like Ted Kennedy, they would do much better in getting re-elected. And that includes Obama who was in favor of single-payer before he was elected president and he better get it done if he wants to be elected for a second term, and get medical costs and the deficet under control. It’s not about ideology anymore, it’s not about liberal or conservative, it’s about being pragmatic and doing what works. quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf quote: ORIGINAL: Brain I understand how people can be concerned about significant deficit spending but this is not the time to be concerned about deficits. Deficits don’t matter when you’re trying to prevent a depression because there is a significant gap in spending in the private sector and the only entity that can fill this significant void is the government. This is where you make a mistake, and you never addressed my ROI comment. If spending works to bring about an upturn in the economy then that is exactly what is needed, but your comment "but this is not the time to be concerned about deficits." is the same irresponsible line being used by porkers right now. It is an idiotic statement, that seems to show that only one thing she be concentrated on, while all others are ignored. We should always be aware of the defecit while it exists, and make sure the money is being put to good use. That is called being fiscally responsible, which very few polticians are, and no wonder if they have constituents like yourself that are telling people to not be concerned about the deficit. quote: Of course you can do nothing except cut taxes, which is what the Republican Party wanted to do, and the economic pain would continue. You never answered the direct question about the tax cuts that Obama has 1) Continued from the republican admin and 2) The new ones he created. Personally some tax cuts for business to keep or bring jobs back to the US, that have been moved outside the US seems like a great idea right about now, but it must not be with your blanket statement and attitude. I also believe that increased taxes on revenues made by US companies outside the US would be in order also, and this would include whether the funds were brought back into the US or not. quote: I must say I find it really nauseating and hypocritical that right wingers are so concerned about the deficit now. Where were you guys when George Bush was spending $1 trillion in Iraq on a war that has accomplished nothing? I was opposed, and I am still opposed to that money being spent. So where were Democrats with control of Congress and the purse strings? You see it is not just a Republican or Democratic problem, and to bring it to that detracts from the actual issue of huge deficits and government waste. You are contributing to the problem by making it an "Us vs. Them" argument, when the us is the American people and the them is actual the politicians. quote: And now Republicans are so concerned about the deficit, sorry but it is all quite disingenuous to me, it’s really all about attacking Obama so Republicans can get re-elected, what was it that Jim DeMint said about Obama’s Waterloo? You need to wake up, it is always about getting elected or re-elected. Open your eyes and see that the point is about keeping the power, not utilizing it in a responsible fashion. quote: It’s not surprising to me that the deficit is out of control with the nonsense going on with lobbyists as described in the article below and all the money spent on war. Of course Zell Miller would never cut any defense spending, do you remember the speech he gave about John Kerry always being against defense spending? You obviously did not look at the government waste link I posted, or you would see that polticians from both parties contribute, and that defense spending set aside, John Kerry is a large porker along with many others. This story you have posted focuses on a single issue, and not on the root problem. Kind of like having a flooring issue with a home, and you decide to rearrange the furniture.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: 'Exploding Deficits' (8/28/2009 5:55:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brain The spending did the work to bring about an upturn in the economy. You are assuming I am implying only one thing should be concentrated on while all others are ignored. I didn’t say that. You have assumed however, that is what I meant. Taxpayers money should always be spent carefully, for me that is a given and should always be the case. Republicans tried to paint the stimulus as wasteful but I don’t agree that it was, I’m sure there was some waste but there were also many good investments. And some of them were long overdue I might add. Actually it was a conclusion that was made based upon the information, and lack there of, and the source is you. There is no positive proof yet that the stimulus is having all of the positive effects that we are seeing. Not to mention their projection of unemployment and deficit (the point of the OP) is way off. You say "I’m sure there was some waste but there were also many good investments." as if you are not sure, but want to comment in such ways as if you know. You should know, we all should know because it is our money, our kid's money, our grand kid's money, etc. quote: Obama did not continue Bush tax cuts because he wanted to, he continued them because he was pressured to do so mainly by Republicans and he wants to be bipartisan but I think it’s a waste of time because Republicans are not interested in being bipartisan but it looks like Obama is going to learn this the hard way. I think Obama made a mistake creating new tax cuts because the Republicans did not become bipartisan and they voted against the stimulus anyway. You are spewing Democratic sound bites now. Some of the cuts were good ones, and not very abusive, so maybe you need to look into it yourself rather than take someone else's word for it, including mine. Then once you have done your homework we can return to this issue. quote: I don’t agree that John Kerry is a wasteful spender, you would have to provide specific examples for me to change my opinion of him. I just haven’t seen evidence of it in news reports about him. http://www.cagw.org/site/PageServer?pagename=news_porkerofthemonth_2009_Feb Where are you getting your news? I suggest vetting your news and not watching the mainstream areas. quote: I think all politicians would do better if they were honest and kept their word like Ted Kennedy, they would do much better in getting re-elected. And that includes Obama who was in favor of single-payer before he was elected president and he better get it done if he wants to be elected for a second term, and get medical costs and the deficet under control. It’s not about ideology anymore, it’s not about liberal or conservative, it’s about being pragmatic and doing what works. The guy did good and bad. I suppose he learned many lessons when he was younger.

rightwinghippie -> RE: 'Exploding Deficits' (8/28/2009 10:11:23 AM)
It seems the question is did it really bring an uptick in the economy, or did it bring a short term unsustainable increase in the indicators. The jury is not in yet, but if its the latter (as I suspect), the stimulus will have done harm than good. This is a time where it would be nice to be wrong, it just doesnt' happen often [:D].

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