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Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 10:13:41 AM

problemchild

Posts: 23
Joined: 7/19/2005
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To answer my own question, I don't think you can...yet.

We all know society is changing with respect to BDSM. It's becoming less underground and more mainstream. And femdom has changed so dramatically since 1980. We see the dominatrix (or dominatrix-like) glorified in movies and music videos as a glamorous, perfect goddess. And there are WAY more dominant women out there now. Although the ratios are still skewed, I remember reading in BDSM literature estimates that there were at least 100 submissive men for every dominant, and some men thought there was no such thing as a dominant woman. No doubt some of you older guys remember. Now I'd say it's closer to 8 or nine submissive men for every dominant woman, and according to some people I know, in places like Los Angeles and New York, it's closer to 4 or 5. And the trend in continuing.

But what I wonder is why, despite the progress, you can be "out" as a gay person (I know not all gay people are out, but I would say close to half of them are) but you can't really be out as a submissive guy. I mean you can, but a lot of people would regard you as a pervert and/or having a "problem."

I'm not out, but in the past couple years I've increasingly wanted to be out. I can't be. Despite the progress, there would still be too many repurcussions at work, among and general social circle. It would make my life hell. On the more courageous side, I decided about two years ago that I would be honest with anyone who asked. Anyone. I know there are probably guys who are fully out, but their situation is could be quite different than mine.

Two reasons I want to be out. One, I just don't like carrying the burden of the secret.

Two, I think if I was out I'd have a better chance with dominant women, whether they were out or not, because I've found they're much more likely to flirt if they know, for a fact, you're a sub.

Post #: 1

RE: Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 10:18:22 AM

CougarStud

Posts: 105
Joined: 7/24/2009
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What would you do differently in your life to be "out"?

(in reply to problemchild)

Post #: 2

RE: Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 10:33:50 AM

OttersSwim

Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
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So one problem is being able to contextualize the issue down for people. Being gay is fairly simple - "I am a person who is generally attracted to others of my own gender." People nod and understand...

But BDSM is not highly exposed to culture overall and thus the statement "I am a person who wants to be subservient to and dominated by others." just does not compute and raises more questions than it answers. People respond "Oh...Wait...what?"

< Message edited by OttersSwim -- 8/25/2009 10:34:26 AM >

_____________________________

I am on a journey of authenticity and self.

(in reply to problemchild)

Post #: 3

RE: Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 10:48:39 AM

problemchild

Posts: 23
Joined: 7/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

So one problem is being able to contextualize the issue down for people. Being gay is fairly simple - "I am a person who is generally attracted to others of my own gender." People nod and understand...

But BDSM is not highly exposed to culture overall and thus the statement "I am a person who wants to be subservient to and dominated by others." just does not compute and raises more questions than it answers. People respond "Oh...Wait...what?"

Yes. That's exactly my perception. Especially a male who wants to be subservient to a female.

The situation has improved dramatically over the last fifteen years, but I just don't think it's time yet. Maybe in another 15 years.

To anwer the other post, I don't think I'd "do" anything different. The advantage would be getting the burdern of the secret off my shoulders and having higher visibility as a sub to dominant women. There have been women who have approached me to flirt only because they found out I was a serious sub. It would just be nice if more women knew.

In my experience, there are many women out there who are secretly kinky. They may not necessarily be "dominant," but they would like an experience with a submissive male. Some have qualms about getting into the lifestyle, but as the old saying goes, "the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."

(in reply to OttersSwim)

Post #: 4

RE: Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 10:57:35 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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Off of the top of My head, there are only two professions that I can think of that you are correct. One is being a teacher and the other is being a member of the US military. I'm sure there are others, but those are the ones that I have personal experience with. Unless you are actually looking at losing your job (or family) over being a submissive male, I would say that you are too busy letting your fear control you to obtain your happiness. My own sub is under the don't ask, don't tell rule, so I completely understand wanting to tell people so badly and literally being unable to. If you're not living under those kinds of regulations, you need to take a look at your own motives.

There are all kinds of projections about what the ratios are for femdoms to male subs. I can tell you that you are lessening your chances of having what you really want if you're not willing to stand up and say exactly what that is. If you are too concerned about having a profile available or worried about getting involved in lifestyle events, it's going to be a lot easier to pass you by. Even in your own best estimate, there will be four other males right there to take your place. I won't speak for every Domme on this board, but I do tell males flat out that if you can't attend a lifestyle event with Me, it's not going to happen. If I go to a public event alone, chances are, there are going to be submissive males in attendance and I won't be alone for long.

Do yourself a favor and check out this thread http://www.collarchat.com/m_2767899/tm.htm and pose that question to yourself. If you read the thread, you're going to find the two males who were willing to put the time and effort into obtaining a D/s dynamic where they are of service. It might be something you want to think about, rather than blame society over.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to OttersSwim)

Post #: 5

RE: Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 11:13:39 AM

MstrPBK

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Joined: 1/2/2008
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quote:

Off of the top of My head, there are only two professions that I can think of that you are correct. One is being a teacher and the other is being a member of the US military. I'm sure there are others, but those are the ones that I have personal experience with. Unless you are actually looking at losing your job (or family) over being a submissive male, I would say that you are too busy letting your fear control you to obtain your happiness.

Might I add to that list a minister or priest of a conservative church ..... er ..... maybe sometimes not so conservative church.

MstrPBK
St Paul, MN USA

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 6

RE: Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 11:15:39 AM

Lockit

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Joined: 5/7/2007
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Why not make your first step... coming out here? I mean... you wish to be seen by dominant's and your profile is... like not there. Seriously, some of the things you are saying are telling me that you have some concepts that are limiting you and you hold them true because that is what you have concluded from life experiences or whatever.

The simple fact is that men have been led by women throughout time... not all men... but many. Otherwise... where did we get the terms or sayings... henpecked... dear, a woman leads, she just lets the man think he does... if mama ain't happy, nobody is... behind every good man is a good woman? I wouldn't say these were forms of dominance I would respect but they have been going on for a long time.

You may feel it isn't acceptable in society or your family for a man to be led, but it happens all the time, inside bdsm and outside of it. One doesn't have to announce that they are kinky in submitting to a woman. No one has to know anything you don't want them to. If you are worried about how people will view you and yet don't want to keep up a lie... I have to wonder what you are thinking would happen. I think you have built up a lot of things in your mind and think the outcome will be one thing or another and aren't giving enough room for thought that they might be far different.

Even with how I live and in things I do... when someone shows, says or acts submissive around me, I don't automatically think they are kinky. Try thinking about dominance and submission as personality traits for a bit before you conclude that they automatically include kinky aspects to them.

Maybe it isn't so much that you are afraid of what others might think.. but that you feel ashamed somehow and you cannot be free because of the shame you feel. Maybe it is time to look at how you feel and not worry so much about what others think going from your own shame.

Give me five reasons why a man should be ashamed of being submissive to women or think about it. Your answers could be very telling on how you think and what might be holding you back.

_____________________________

No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!

(in reply to problemchild)

Post #: 7

RE: Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 11:18:12 AM

OttersSwim

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Joined: 9/1/2008
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But you do realize that there are places where you can go and be totally out don't you? Clubs, munches, events, etc. Go to the places where the people like you are and, even if only for a weekend, be your total self and you will feel much better.

I did not see your post as necessarily a rant on not being able to find someone, but of feeling like you cannot be your complete self out in regular ol'public - as a transgendered person, I get that, totally.

So go to where the dominant women are and be yourself.

_____________________________

I am on a journey of authenticity and self.

(in reply to problemchild)

Post #: 8

RE: Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 11:19:22 AM

subtlebutterfly

Posts: 2230
Joined: 6/15/2008
From: Not your hood
Status: offline

Why do you have to be out? Why on earth can't you just be you?
It's your personality if you're submissive in a relationship then you're submissive you don't have to state that you're submissive.

_____________________________

~Ms. Awesomeness to YOU!~

(in reply to Lockit)

Post #: 9

RE: Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 11:19:46 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

I actually did think of those, however, I have yet to meet a submissive male who was a member of the clergy of a conservative church. I'm sure there are other professions where it applies. I'd also include some non professional organizations as well (the Scouts come to mind) where it could be an issue. Since I haven't come across that in My personal experience, I didn't want to put out conjecture.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to MstrPBK)

Post #: 10

RE: Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 11:19:54 AM

daintydimples

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You might be The Gutter Mouth Domina, but those words were golden.

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(in reply to Lockit)

Post #: 11

RE: Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 11:27:42 AM

Lockit

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Joined: 5/7/2007
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Even the bible says for a man to submit to his wife as Christ does the church. That leaders are to be servants. So it also says that a man is to be the head of his household... but submit to Christ. How one views all that is basically determined in the whole picture of it all as... if he feels it is a sin... it is and we all should be submitting to one another in some way. Why do you think Christ washed the feet of his followers? Therefore it is not just the guidelines found in the bible... but from the heart and mind of the person, that one is condemned or feels free. So... I have known leaders in the religious circles that submitted to their wives. lol It's all interpretation as far as I can see. lol

_____________________________

No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!

(in reply to daintydimples)

Post #: 12

RE: Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 11:30:05 AM

problemchild

Posts: 23
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline

I want to point out to everyone that I took my profile off-line because I have a dominant girlfriend now and we've been together for two months. It's going great. This might be the big one.

BTW, I've been in the BDSM scene since 1979. I could tell stories. But I just wanted you to know I'm quite familiar with most aspects of BDSM culture.

And no, I don't have a sense of guilt at all. I did years ago, but I've long since been settled with those issues. That's exactly why I want to come out. I am not ashamed of myself at all. But it's just the complications it would cause at work, with the family, etc. It isn't worth the grief.

I'm wondering what people think about the future though. The way things are going, I do think they'll come a time when all this stuff is better understood (and it's understood way better by society today than in 1979, when almost everybody considered it sick) and a sub male can be out. I'm just wondering when that will be.

< Message edited by problemchild -- 8/25/2009 11:32:49 AM >

(in reply to OttersSwim)

Post #: 13

RE: Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 11:31:40 AM

Lockit

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Joined: 5/7/2007
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The more you say the more inconsistant you seem to be.

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(in reply to problemchild)

Post #: 14

RE: Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 11:33:59 AM

problemchild

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Joined: 7/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

The more you say the more inconsistant you seem to be.

How so? BTW, this is my last post for the afternoon. Gotta go. I'll try to take a look at the thread tonight.

< Message edited by problemchild -- 8/25/2009 11:34:55 AM >

(in reply to Lockit)

Post #: 15

RE: Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 11:42:08 AM

Lockit

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Joined: 5/7/2007
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You say here...

I'm not out, but in the past couple years I've increasingly wanted to be out. I can't be. Despite the progress, there would still be too many repurcussions at work, among and general social circle. It would make my life hell. On the more courageous side, I decided about two years ago that I would be honest with anyone who asked. Anyone. I know there are probably guys who are fully out, but their situation is could be quite different than mine.

Two reasons I want to be out. One, I just don't like carrying the burden of the secret.

Two, I think if I was out I'd have a better chance with dominant women, whether they were out or not, because I've found they're much more likely to flirt if they know, for a fact, you're a sub.

Then you say...

I want to point out to everyone that I took my profile off-line because I have a dominant girlfriend now and we've been together for two months. It's going great. This might be the big one.

You say because of your situation in life you cannot unburden yourself by telling people and then you state that you decided to be honest about it all with anyone.

Then you say you want to be out to attract dominant women and then you say you have one.

_____________________________

No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!

(in reply to problemchild)

Post #: 16

RE: Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 12:08:35 PM

littlesarbonn

Posts: 1710
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From: Stockton, California
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As someone who has lived with being a submissive most of his adult life, and as someone who has been very present in online forums as a submissive male, I have been "out" quite a bit as a submissive, and perhaps I have a little bit of insight to share on this subject. First off, I discovered that the more I wanted others to know about my lifestyle, the less the outcome was as I hoped it would be.

1. Family. When I was owned by a woman, and I got tired of explaining she was not my girlfriend and that she was not going to be marrying me anytime soon, I felt it was important to tell my family that there was something a little different about my relationship with her. She and I were very close and very special to each other, so I figured this was about as good a relationship as I was ever going to have in my life. So, I revealed to my family my lifestyle. Big mistake. It went from "she seems like such a beautiful, caring woman" to "I'd rather you not be around my younger ones alone." You have to remember that what we take for granted (that it's all consensual and that we're not nutcases, usually) is not shared with the common population. A lot of people think we're dangerous, and sometimes they go full retard on us over our choices in this lifestyle.

2. Being out at work. This turned into one of those situations where I found myself having to apologize for my lifestyle in order to avoid being fired. I never even instigated the experience, but a woman I was seeing thought it was important to "out" me at work. This has happened a couple of times in my past. Sometimes the results were better than other times. While working as a university teacher, one student who discovered my lifestyle inclinations actually tried to get me fired (not because she was disgusted by it but because she approached me to bring her into the lifestyle, and I felt it was inappropriate to be involved with one of my students...taking the moral high road rarely works well, I discovered). In the end, the administration decided that I was in the right, but it was a very embarrassing situation for me, and the student lost nothing for her desire to pretty much destroy my life. So, be really careful because your work life might suffer just because you didn't realize that those really cool co-workers weren't as cool as you thought they were.

3. In social circles. This is the one place where I'm pretty much out these days. I don't advertise my submissive lifestyle, but I'm naturally submissive, and a woman interested in me is going to find that out really quickly without me having to even tell her. The ones that know something about the lifestyle don't have to be led to understand, and the ones that don't, if they're interested in me, find themselves even more interested (or they leave). This works well for me. What this means is that when a potential dating partner appears, I don't pretend to be something I'm not, and then spend the next couple of years trying to turn her into a dominant. If there's any confusion, I explain where I come from as a potential partner. If she freaks, she leaves. If she is intrigued, it usually works out well. On some occasions, they don't freak, and they're still not interested in dominating me; these potential partners usually end up becoming really close friends, and I have a few female friends who are very much like that. But what's cool about them is that I don't have to hide who I am from them, and that works out well.

If I can give any piece of advice, it's to understand that you can't predict the behavior of other people. Other people can sometimes be the biggest problem in your life. If you are absolutely positive you are going to be in a situation where no one can ever affect you adversely, then that's when to decide to out yourself. But if you realize that you might change jobs one day, or ever have to feel guilty to ANYONE, be very careful because once it's out of the bag, it is really, really hard to put it back in again.

_____________________________

<---- FYI, this picture looks JUST like me

http://www.littlesarbonn.com/Stickman/Stickman.htm
The Adventures of Stickman and the Unemployed Lego Spaceman

(in reply to problemchild)

Post #: 17

RE: Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 12:17:21 PM

lateralist1

Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline

Being submissive to your partner will not cause you any problems.
Being out as into BDSM probably will.
I got the sack from Social Services for being honest about my way of life.
I'm not sure if the women who proclaim themselves BDSM Dominants are more dominant than the norm.
Or the men who claim to be BDSM submissive are more submissive than the norm.
As has been said dominant and submissive are personality traits or a pholosophy of life. BDSM is something else entirely.
You sound more interested in the fact that you are submissive to your partner rather than seriously into BDSM which is a very nice change.
You are making perfect sense to me. Your at the beginning of a relationship and you are giving it a real chance.
My advice is wait and see what your dominant partner has to say about what you say to whom.
My advice to her is trust noone.
My life is hell.

(in reply to Lockit)

Post #: 18

RE: Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 12:19:30 PM

beargonewild

Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: problemchild

To answer my own question, I don't think you can...yet.

We all know society is changing with respect to BDSM. It's becoming less underground and more mainstream. And femdom has changed so dramatically since 1980. We see the dominatrix (or dominatrix-like) glorified in movies and music videos as a glamorous, perfect goddess. And there are WAY more dominant women out there now. Although the ratios are still skewed, I remember reading in BDSM literature estimates that there were at least 100 submissive men for every dominant, and some men thought there was no such thing as a dominant woman. No doubt some of you older guys remember. Now I'd say it's closer to 8 or nine submissive men for every dominant woman, and according to some people I know, in places like Los Angeles and New York, it's closer to 4 or 5. And the trend in continuing.

But what I wonder is why, despite the progress, you can be "out" as a gay person (I know not all gay people are out, but I would say close to half of them are) but you can't really be out as a submissive guy. I mean you can, but a lot of people would regard you as a pervert and/or having a "problem."

I'm not out, but in the past couple years I've increasingly wanted to be out. I can't be. Despite the progress, there would still be too many repurcussions at work, among and general social circle. It would make my life hell. On the more courageous side, I decided about two years ago that I would be honest with anyone who asked. Anyone. I know there are probably guys who are fully out, but their situation is could be quite different than mine.

Two reasons I want to be out. One, I just don't like carrying the burden of the secret.

Two, I think if I was out I'd have a better chance with dominant women, whether they were out or not, because I've found they're much more likely to flirt if they know, for a fact, you're a sub.

I have to strongly disagree. I am quite out and open regarding my role as a submissive male and as a gay submissive male. Among my friends and peers, I haven't had and repercussions in from life in general and that's partly because I refuse to allow that to happen. Being a submissive male does not make me subservient in any way shape or form to any man or woman. Even when I have engaged in non sexual play with a dominant woman, I do so as a submissive man and they know that I am just being who I am in that role, I know that if I was acting subservient to a dominant female that they would simply laugh and walk away.

_____________________________

Do Not Rile da Chosen Bear

Promiscuous boy you already know
That I’m all yours what you waiting for?

Resident MANWHORE ~1000 Bear pts~

10 NZ points
Whips~n~Cuffs

(in reply to problemchild)

Post #: 19

RE: Can You Be "OUT" About Being a Sub Male? - 8/25/2009 1:02:22 PM

SailingBum

Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: problemchild

Two reasons I want to be out. One, I just don't like carrying the burden of the secret.

Two, I think if I was out I'd have a better chance with dominant women, whether they were out or not, because I've found they're much more likely to flirt if they know, for a fact, you're a sub.

I have a new flash for you and the rest of the wannabe "outers" I really and I do mean REALLY don't wanna know where your dick has been!!! Prolly in much the same way ppl close to me have ZERO interest in my sex life.

I really like fucking da bitches. Truly I do! Do I have this "dirty little secret" I need to tell my now grown kids? uhhh NO! I can predict my kids replies. Words to the effect "Dad I could have spent the rest of my life NOT knowing dat" Nuff said

BadOne

_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

(in reply to problemchild)

Post #: 20

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