RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (Full Version)

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stella41b -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 4:20:52 AM)

I don't have an issue with the title of the thread. State prosecutors are elected, I would assume in the name of the majority, and such is the nature of democracy that those elected by the majority act on behalf of everyone. Therefore just as a nation is collectively responsible for the government it elects it is also collectively responsible for the state prosecutors who act in their name.

In a program broadcast by WYNC Radio entitled 'The Execution Tapes' Mike Wallace a CBS news correspondent and co-editor of 60 minutes stated, "The death penalty's popular in America. Politicians run, as part of the process of running on their approval of the death penalty."

In the same program Michael Bowers former attorney general for the state of Georgia when asked if state attorneys are prosecuting people in the name of the citizens of Georgia stated "Oh certainly." When asked if it was an expression of their will being carried out he replied, "There is no question about that. It is the will of the people of Georgia and has been for a long time. I assume it still is, I'm out of politics but I'm quite sure that it is the will of the people."

Therefore I would suggest that it's the same in Texas, in Florida, in California, and all the other states where the death penalty remains on the statutes.

But it's just as in the point made by defense lawyers for Khan Dinh Phan, a Vietnamese immigrant facing the death penalty in Georgia, "You don't have to have the death penalty in Georgia, but if you have it, the Constitution requires you must provide the defense the basic tools to prepare." The case against the Khan Dinh Phan has failed to come to trial in the last four years because the state has failed to adequately fund the defense.

Same thing in Texas, you don't have to have the death penalty, it's there by choice. If you're not happy with having blood on your hands from executions such as above then stop electing prosecutors who seek the death penalty.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

No one ever said the death penalty is a flawless system. But like any system, you should improve it, not do away with it. You don't throw your computer out the window when you get a virus, you download and anti-virus and fix it.



Furman vs. Georgia 408 US 238 (1972) is the United States Supreme Court decision that ruled for the requirement of consistency with the death penalty and is one of numerous Supreme Court rulings which caused the moratorium which was ended with Gregg vs. Georgia 428 US 153 (1976) and over the years there have been numerous cases - Lockett vs. Ohio, Atkins vs. Virginia, Ring vs. Arizona, and so on - in an attempt to improve the death penalty and its relationship with the Constitution.

However there is no way of establishing guilt beyond all reasonable doubt in all capital trials (required by Furman) as cases like the one above provided by the OP, cases like Reuben Kantu (another innocent executed by Texas), not to mention the hundreds (and it is in their hundreds) of those who have either been exonerated, pardoned, released from Death Row or had their sentences commuted to life imprisonment.

Therefore I'm inclined to agree with the opinions of Justice Brennan and Thurgood Marshall in Furman vs. Georgia that the death penalty is unconstitutional in all cases.

However in most other places in the Western world (including the dozen or so states which don't have the death penalty) justice is and has been for many years has been served adequately without the death penalty.

There is no longer any need for the death penalty.








slaveluci -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 6:07:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

I don't have an issue with the title of the thread. State prosecutors are elected, I would assume in the name of the majority, and such is the nature of democracy that those elected by the majority act on behalf of everyone. Therefore just as a nation is collectively responsible for the government it elects it is also collectively responsible for the state prosecutors who act in their name.


Not everyone is in the "majority" and I rarely am. Usually the individuals I vote for are not the ones elected. Therefore, the ones who win don't usually share my ideals, morals, values, etc. How in any way does this make ME responsible for what they do? I didn't vote for them, I don't agree with them and I have no control over what they do. This doesn't make ME guilty of their crimes..........luci




DomImus -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 6:52:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
I wouldn't be entirely opposed to that idea, but in this particular case I can think of no replacement. For the death penalty however, I can think of another plan. One that gets nobody murdered in my name.


We can always end capital punishment and substitute life in prison. Even the Libyans like that one.




DavanKael -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 6:55:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Not buying it, Arpig. Would you live somewhere with a death penalty? Have you? Then, isn't blood potentially on your hands too?
Davan
As an adult, I have not, and would not. And if I did, then yes that blood would be on my hands.



Then, I think that it rocks that you're living your beliefs.  Truly; that is something rare and important. 
We simply disagree on this point.  If someone did something so egregious to me and/or mine, I have no problem at all with the death penalty being used toward them nor, quite honestly, would I have qualms about doing the job myself. 
  Davan




angelikaJ -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 7:38:51 AM)

FR
I am opposed to the death penalty.

I think that what happened here is a terrible wrong.
However, the evidence that was presented at the time, was partly based on the "science" as it was understood at the time.
(And yes, unfortunately, faulty opinions as well.)

If there was evidence that contradicted what happened here it was his lawyer's job to present it.

There are newer understandings about fire science and markers for arson, so maybe this will not happen again.

I can not personally condemn the people of Texas because capital punishment is legal in this country.





Marc2b -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 8:07:06 AM)

Innocent blood in not on the hands of all Texans. It is only on the hands of those who helped (be it through honest error or malfeasance) put this apparently innocent man to death – and, to a lesser degree, those who support the death penalty. Assigning collective guilt through association has been used far too many times in history to justify everything from bigotry to political partisanship to oppression to genocide. I am not saying that calling all Texans murderers for this execution is the equivalent of saying all Jews are greedy or all Blacks are criminals – but you are standing at the head of a pathway that leads in that direction.

I have been and remain opposed to the death penalty and this is precisely the reason why. You can “improve the system” all you want. There is simply no way to guarantee that innocent people will not be executed.

People make honest mistakes.
“Yeah, that’s the guy I saw running away from the crime scene.”

People are corrupt.
“Everybody thinks this guy is a scumbag, I’m sure to be re-elected if I convict him so I better not tell the defense about that exculpatory evidence we found.”

The desire for retribution is understandable. Believe me; I shed no tears for Timothy McVeigh when they stuck a needle in his arm. But the law is supposed to be above emotion. That’s one of the purposes behind having laws – that we be governed by reason and not by passion. Another purpose is to protect our rights. The former does not occur when we execute people and neither occurs if we execute an innocent person.

The conviction of innocent people is a tragedy that we will never be able to wholly eliminate but without the death penalty there remains at least a chance for the mistake to be rectified – for the innocent to get their freedom and at least some of their life back. If Cameron Todd Willingham is indeed found to have been innocent there is nothing we can do to give him back his freedom and his life – partially or otherwise.




sappatoti -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 8:10:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci
quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
I don't have an issue with the title of the thread. State prosecutors are elected, I would assume in the name of the majority, and such is the nature of democracy that those elected by the majority act on behalf of everyone. Therefore just as a nation is collectively responsible for the government it elects it is also collectively responsible for the state prosecutors who act in their name.

Not everyone is in the "majority" and I rarely am. Usually the individuals I vote for are not the ones elected. Therefore, the ones who win don't usually share my ideals, morals, values, etc. How in any way does this make ME responsible for what they do? I didn't vote for them, I don't agree with them and I have no control over what they do. This doesn't make ME guilty of their crimes..........luci

Let's turn it around then. Suppose those you didn't vote for created something immediately useful to you: tax rebate, tax holidays, free medical checkups... whatever, pick your poison. Based upon your logic, you would also have to exclude yourself from receiving such bonuses as you didn't vote for them.

Your logic works both ways.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 8:21:16 AM)

Why limit it to Texans? I believe it was, and is, the Supreme Court of the US that ultimately permitted States to execute prisoners. Using the same logic - every US citizen holds an equal responsibility. Personally, I can live with it.

I've become ambivalent to this cause. Pragmatically execution as the ultimate penalty makes sense. Obviously it is not a deterrent, people are being murdered every day. Also on the pragmatic side, it costs more to execute someone than to just let them rot in prison. However, under current policy, that makes people personally involved on the victims side seem to suffer indefinitely when every so often they have to relive the tragic event going to parole hearings where they hear about the 'growth' and 'remorse' of the perpetrator who murdered their friend or family member who didn't get the opportunity to 'grow'. An execution is the ultimate act of 'closure'.

The 'ultimate penalty' seems to be there to offset the other side of the spectrum where some murders get released in a relatively short period of time. I don't think you can address one polarity without the other. Released, some cases, in less than 10 years seems almost as tragic as an innocent man being executed. Theoretically, all murder victims were 'innocent' too; and they didn't have the benefit of sentencing guidelines, appeals, 'special circumstances' validation of evidence, playing the 'race-card', or a trial with judgment by their peers.

Murder rates don't seem to have a relationship to States that have the death penalty.

How about making both sides happy - release all the convicted murders and require all citizens to carry side-arms.

A bigger question is, why is this thread in the wasteland known as 'polls & other stupidity'?




Arpig -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 9:28:40 AM)

quote:

Well then that sounds like your problem. Because my problem would come if I lived in a society that coddled the criminals at the expense of innocent victims who can no longer speak for themselves. Daughters that fathers won't get to walk down the aisle. Sons who won't play in the big football game or get the lead in the school play. Kids who will grow up not knowing their parents.
And killing the person will change any of that how?




Arpig -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 9:31:46 AM)

quote:

Ah ah ah. Re-read what I wrote more carefully. If you enter your home post-murder and see the murderer 'finishing' what he's doing, you can still kill him. So if that's the case, then I have no problem with the state doing it for me later if I can't.
If the deed is already done then no it is not alright to kill him. Of course I can, but if  I do I am equally guilty of murder as is he.




DomKen -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 11:28:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Innocent blood in not on the hands of all Texans. It is only on the hands of those who helped (be it through honest error or malfeasance) put this apparently innocent man to death – and, to a lesser degree, those who support the death penalty. Assigning collective guilt through association has been used far too many times in history to justify everything from bigotry to political partisanship to oppression to genocide. I am not saying that calling all Texans murderers for this execution is the equivalent of saying all Jews are greedy or all Blacks are criminals – but you are standing at the head of a pathway that leads in that direction.

Truthfully I feel that it is. The state is effectively the people of the state. The state put to death an innocent man. Maybe if the people of Texas, who cavalierly accept the executions of 20 or more people a year in their name, take a long hard look at this subject then maybe Cameron Todd Willingham will not have died for absolutely nothing.




Marc2b -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 11:39:11 AM)

quote:

Truthfully I feel that it is. The state is effectively the people of the state. The state put to death an innocent man. Maybe if the people of Texas, who cavalierly accept the executions of 20 or more people a year in their name, take a long hard look at this subject then maybe Cameron Todd Willingham will not have died for absolutely nothing.


If that's the way you feel then so be it - but you are still engaging in guilt by association.




DomKen -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 11:55:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Truthfully I feel that it is. The state is effectively the people of the state. The state put to death an innocent man. Maybe if the people of Texas, who cavalierly accept the executions of 20 or more people a year in their name, take a long hard look at this subject then maybe Cameron Todd Willingham will not have died for absolutely nothing.


If that's the way you feel then so be it - but you are still engaging in guilt by association.


You're saying the people of Texas bear no responsibility for the state's criminal justice system which convicted an innocent man, denied him on appeal at least twice and then put him to death. Who is responsible if not the people who support that system and elect prosecutors and legislators who campaign on 'tough on crime' platforms?




Loki45 -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 11:56:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
However in most other places in the Western world (including the dozen or so states which don't have the death penalty) justice is and has been for many years has been served adequately without the death penalty.

There is no longer any need for the death penalty.


That's a matter of opinion. Funny....I consider that someone who brutally rapes and murders someone only deserves one sentence. And 'life' sure isn't it.




Loki45 -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 12:00:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
And killing the person will change any of that how?


Mercnbeth already covered how it changes it. When the murderer is put down, the surviving family members are sparred the continued pain of parole hearings. They're sparred the knowing that one day the one who murdered their loved one will be released to harm others.




Loki45 -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 12:02:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
If the deed is already done then no it is not alright to kill him. Of course I can, but if  I do I am equally guilty of murder as is he.


Not according to the laws on the books. If I walked into my house and see someone 'just finishing' murdering someone, all I need to do is aim, shoot and call the cops. Because no court in the land would not stipulate that I the murderer was 'done' and that I killed out of revenge. Even if it was 'stipulated' that it was a revenge killing, it would also fall under 'temporary insanity' because of what I'd just seen. No jury would convict.




Marc2b -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 12:52:55 PM)

quote:

You're saying the people of Texas bear no responsibility for the state's criminal justice system which convicted an innocent man, denied him on appeal at least twice and then put him to death. Who is responsible if not the people who support that system and elect prosecutors and legislators who campaign on 'tough on crime' platforms?


No, I'm saying that the people who screwed up his case bear most of the responsability and that those who support the death penalty and elect legislators to legalize it bear some responsibility. Those who oppose the death penalty, wether they actively work against it or simply vote for legislators who would vote against it do not bear any responsibility. To say that such people have blood on their hands for no other reason than where they reside is wrong. It is bigotry.

There is no such thing as "the masses." It is a large group of individuals.




stella41b -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 5:37:58 PM)

This is the same state where Judge Sharon Keller is facing a reprimand or removal from the bench for her conduct on the day Michael Richard was executed on September 25, 2007.

She had left the court early that day and was at home when she received a call from an assistant at the court saying that the attorneys for Richard were requesting more time to file an appeal based on a U.S. Supreme Court order earlier that day. Despite the fact that the attorneys had indicated they were having computer problems and needed more time to complete the appeal, Judge Keller reiterated that the court closed at 5 pm. As a result, the appeal was not ruled on by the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals and Richard was executed a few hours later.

If the court had considered and even denied the appeal, it is almost certain that the U.S. Supreme Court would have granted a stay of execution, as happened in all other cases scheduled for execution from that day until April 2008 when the Court handed down its decision regarding the constitutionality of lethal injection in Baze v. Rees. Judge Keller insisted that she was doing her duty when she stated that the clerk's office closes at 5. The presiding judge at the tribunal will now submit a report to the state Commission on Judicial Conduct, which will decide whether sanctions should be imposed on Judge Keller.

What is the point of having the death penalty when it cannot be so carefully administered so as to avoid erronous and premature executions?

All too often people are executed not because they have committed the worst crimes but simply because they have been denied 'due process' (supposedly guaranteed under the Constitution and numerous Supreme Court rulings) or have been assigned the worst possible legal representation.

This is Texas, the state where Ron Mock, an attorney practising out of Houston has represented some 10% of those sent to Death Row, arguably more than any other defense attorney in Texas. Each day Mock starts his day as a member of the bar, but not the one in court but his own bar in downtown Houston known as Buster's Drinkery. Of his 15 capital clients 12 of them ended up on Death Row, including the then 17 year old Gary Graham who was convicted largely on the basis of a single eyewitness and no physical evidence. Mock's investigator, Merv West, said Mock discouraged him from working hard on the case: "I remember that from the first Ron Mock insinuated that Gary was guilty, and that definitely affected my investigation. Since we both assumed Gary was guilty, I decided not to waste time trying to substantiate his alibi. . . ."

Also in Houston is Joseph Frank Cannon, another defence attorney who has had 10 clients sent to Death Row. Cannon brags about hurrying through capital trials like 'greased lightning' and Candelario Elizondo, past president of the Harris County Criminal Lawyers Association, said that it is "generally reputed in the Harris County legal community" that Mr. Cannon received capital appointments "because he delivers on his promises to move the courts' dockets."

One of Mr. Cannon's former clients closest to death is Calvin Burdine. The jury foreman from Burdine's trial has submitted an affidavit in court asserting that Cannon repeatedly fell asleep during the trial. Cannon also used slurs such as "queer" and "fairy" in court papers for Burdine, an openly gay man. According to The Wall Street Journal, Mr. Cannon doesn't remember the details of the Burdine case. "I don't have to prove anything," he remarked. "My record speaks for itself."

But this isn't just Texas, this is right through the other states too. In Florida Andrew Golden is a former teacher who had never even received a traffic ticket. He had been married to his wife, Ardelle, for twenty-four years, sharing a very close relationship. He adored his two sons, Chip and Darin. That is why life on Florida's death row was so difficult for Golden, almost driving him to suicide. He kept his sanity by making things for the boys and helping them with their college applications--and by fighting to prove his innocence.

Golden was sent to death row in 1991 for allegedly drowning his wife. The case against him was amazingly weak: Ardelle and the family car were found in a lake at the end of a boat ramp near Winter Haven, but even the police investigators and medical examiner stated at trial that the evidence did not suggest foul play.

However, Golden's lawyer did almost nothing to prepare for trial, having assumed that he would have the case thrown out beforehand. When the case was announced for trial, it was too late to prepare. There was no time for an accident reconstruction. The attorney put on no defense. He never presented the jury with the reasonable explanation that Golden's wife might have committed suicide, having been depressed over the recent death of her father. He never told the jury about the coffee mug wedged near the brake and accelerator pedal, or the four death notices of her father which Ardelle had with her in the car.

Andrew Golden, with a new lawyer, had his conviction overturned by a unanimous Florida Supreme Court and was freed into the welcoming arms of his children and granddaughter in 1994.

In Georgia Aden Harrison, Jr., a black man, had as his court-appointed counsel 83-year-old James Venable, who had been an imperial wizard of the Ku Klux Klan for over 15 years. The judge who reviewed Venable's representation in 1990 said the lawyer all but abandoned his client and suffered from "advanced age, and numerous lapses of judgment." Jack House was represented at his capital trial by a husband and wife team (also in Georgia) who had never read the state's death penalty statute. The lawyers never visited the crime scene or interviewed the state's witnesses, made no attempt to discover the state's evidence (they were "too busy"), and barely spoke to their client. One of them left during the testimony of a key prosecution witness (whom he later cross-examined), and they presented no mitigating evidence at sentencing because they were unaware that there even was a sentencing phase to the trial.

The above are not just isolated cases, but all too often an accurate description of the reality faced by anyone on Death Row who often have been convicted not for their crimes but with the help of incompetent defense counsel and who are struggling to get through the post-conviction appeals process with similarly incompetent lawyers.

The prospects for change are getting worse, not better. Funding for indigent defense are being cut back, the number of people facing imminent execution is increasing dramatically and Congress have been working to eliminate the last protections these defendants have of ever countering these injustices.

The main reason for this neglect is that the death penalty in the States has become so political. Politicians, from prosecutors to presidents, seize upon the death penalty as their symbol of toughness against crime. Therefore, it is not surprising that the appointment of counsel in capital cases is steeped in politics as well. As Stephen Bright wrote recently in The Yale Law Journal, those on death row are not a powerful constituency:

The quality of legal representation in capital cases in many states is a scandal. However, almost no one cares. Those facing the death penalty are generally poor, often members of racial minorities, often afflicted with substantial mental impairments, and always accused of serious, terrible crimes. . . . All of this leads to, at best, indifference and, more often, hostility toward the plight of those accused."

It's very easy to be in favour of the death penalty when you don't have a specific person or crime in mind, but the Susan Smith case illustrates just how critical the sentencing phase is and just how sensitive it needs to be. I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever that Susan Smith drowned her two sons and that she appeared to do it with premeditation, but the jury needed to be told Susan Smith's life story, a story of sexual abuse, of mental instability and suicide attempts, in order to make that crucial decision between life and death.

But if she was left to tell that story herself Susan Smith would probably be dead now. She needed that experienced advocate who had gone through every aspect of her life so as the jury might be able to understand not just what had happened but why. However unfortunately, and perhaps scandalously defense attorneys are all too often silent when it comes to that phase in the trial.

Justice isn't condemning someone to death because it is believed they have probably or might have committed a terrible crime. Justice is knowing they have committed the crime, knowing the answer to why they have committed the crime, so as to make a decision as to the most appropriate sentence for that crime, that person, in those circumstances.

I sincerely believe that if the people of Texas (or anywhere else where capital punishment exists) looked beyond their own moral judgments and actually got to know and to see the death penalty process for what it really is they would be against it. I actually believe that if the people in Texas took the trouble to see what is really going on in places such as Harris County, Houston and elsewhere there would be an outcry, there would be an outrage.

But there isn't. And that's why the death penalty is as it is in Texas and why innocent people get executed. People just aren't that bothered.


Sources:

P. Weber, "Trial of Texas judge over death-row appeal ends," Associated Press, Aug. 21, 2009
P. Marcotte, Snoozing, Unprepared Lawyer Cited, ABA Journal, Feb., 1991, at 14.
S. Bright, Counsel for the Poor: The Death Sentence Not for the Worst Crime but for the Worst Lawyer, 103 Yale Law Journal 1835, 1838 (1994).
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org




Loki45 -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 5:43:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
She had left the court early that day and was at home when she received a call from an assistant at the court saying that the attorneys for Richard were requesting more time to file an appeal based on a U.S. Supreme Court order earlier that day. Despite the fact that the attorneys had indicated they were having computer problems and needed more time to complete the appeal, Judge Keller reiterated that the court closed at 5 pm. As a result, the appeal was not ruled on by the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals and Richard was executed a few hours later.


I'm amazed at how facts get changed in the news depending on the source. According to the stories here *locally,* she wasn't at home. They got a call towards the end of the day asking them to stay late. The call did not indicate what was being filed or for whom. So they gave the answer they always did, which was that the court closed at 5.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
If the court had considered and even denied the appeal, it is almost certain that the U.S. Supreme Court would have granted a stay of execution, as happened in all other cases scheduled for execution from that day until April 2008 when the Court handed down its decision regarding the constitutionality of lethal injection in Baze v. Rees. Judge Keller insisted that she was doing her duty when she stated that the clerk's office closes at 5. The presiding judge at the tribunal will now submit a report to the state Commission on Judicial Conduct, which will decide whether sanctions should be imposed on Judge Keller.


"All other cases scheduled for execution?" Try again. We've been putting them down left and right for years. Not "all" cases get a stay from the supreme court.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
It's very easy to be in favour of the death penalty when you don't have a specific person or crime in mind, but the Susan Smith case illustrates just how critical the sentencing phase is and just how sensitive it needs to be. I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever that Susan Smith drowned her two sons and that she appeared to do it with premeditation, but the jury needed to be told Susan Smith's life story, a story of sexual abuse, of mental instability and suicide attempts, in order to make that crucial decision between life and death.

But if she was left to tell that story herself Susan Smith would probably be dead now. She needed that experienced advocate who had gone through every aspect of her life so as the jury might be able to understand not just what had happened but why. However unfortunately, and perhaps scandalously defense attorneys are all too often silent when it comes to that phase in the trial.  


This goes back to the other thread about "something made me do it, so I'm not responsible." So, because she was abused, she's got a  license to kill her own children and get away with it? I highly disagree with that. What letting her off does is allow the cycle to continue. Should she ever have kids again, do you think they'll have a 'sparkling' childhood? No, they won't. What will happen when they reach adulthood?




DomKen -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 6:50:11 PM)

How many innocent people can be executed by the government before capital punishment becomes unacceptable to you? One clearly isn't enough so what number is 5? 10? 100? Do you volunteer your loved ones for being railroaded to the death chamber for crimes they didn't commit? Why is it ever acceptable for it to happen to anyone?




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