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stella41b -> RE: Innocent blood is on the hands of all Texans (8/26/2009 10:42:12 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Loki45
How old is our country?
And your point here is....?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Loki45
How far have we come that others have not?
Well there's still some way of catching up with China but in this respect you're doing much better than Saudi Arabia, Iran and Nigeria.
Oh sorry.... well it's not as bad as China but with respect to other countries such as Nigeria, Iran and Saudi Arabia you still have some catching up to do. Texas isn't helping your progress one bit.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Loki45
I'd say we're doing alright so far.
Okay.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Loki45
No one ever said our government or laws are perfect and flawless. Look how long my country has debated immigration....health reform.....energy. It takes time. In the meantime, however, I find it comforting to know that people who brutally kill innocent people are being put down for it.
Yeah but you know innocent people don't get locked up or lose their lives over immigration, health reform or energy.
Interesting that you find it comforting to know that people who brutally kill innocent people are being put down for it, but you know I don't think the issue is as clear cut as you'd like to make out it is.
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ORIGINAL: Loki45
People die by 'mistakes' everyday. Just yesterday two high school girls running down the street in North Texas were crushed by a concrete awning. One died, the other is recovering. Chunks fall off of bridges and strike people dead. Mistakes happen. The fact that there is a human element doesn't make it less of a mistake. It simply means that there's a lot of work to be done to fix it.
Yeah right and by that same logic drivers mistakenly have a drink too many before driving or they mistakenly think they can get away with writing a text on their cellphone whilst driving. I mean they didn't mean to kill someone did they? It was a mistake. Could have happened to anyone.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Loki45
The difference between you and me is that I don't want to let brutal rapists and killers loose on the public while I fix those mistakes. We already both have stipulated that 'life sentences' rarely mean 'life.' I have read countless stories about criminals that 'should' have been put down not only killing again but in some cases doing so while in prison.
No the main difference between you and me appears to be that I can understand what you're writing and I can respond to it. I've never written anything about letting brutal rapists and killers loose on anyone not least on society. However you keep repeating this notion like some mantra perhaps to make your argument seem better.
You keep going on about 'brutal rapists and killers' and 'criminals' and using the phrase 'put down' repeatedly, but is there any way you can argue your case by using specific examples but not by dehumanizing people or resorting to stereotypes?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Loki45
The title of this thread implies the death of a death row inmate (who's guilt appears to be in doubt) is on the hands of everyone living in the state in which he was executed. Let's swing that pendulum back the other way. The blood of every innocent person killed after a murder's first conviction is on the hands of everyone who is against the death penalty. The difference being the blood on my hands is a result of my belief in a system that, while flawed, does in fact put down killers. The blood on your hands is a result of you wanting to unleash brutal murderers and rapists back into the population because of the 'chance' that an innocent person may have a shitty lawyer and a dumb jury and get convicted as well.
In other words, 'my' bloody hands are purely by mistake of not one but several people. Your blood is the result of not wanting to adequately punish real killers.
Okay, first thing. This concept of 'blood on our hands' and swinging the pendulum the other way. Your argument or point here doesn't make any sense because those convicted of crimes such as murder are not acting in anyone else's interests but their own, not mine, not your's and certainly not 'with the will of the people'.
Second point I'm talking not about 'shitty lawyers' but about competent lawyers - lawyers who are able to do their job. Competence. It's a bit like a doctor or airline pilot. Nobody would fly with an incompetent pilot and nobody would accept an incompetent doctor being let loose on patients in a hospital and by the very same logic I feel that incompetent lawyers should never be granted access to a court room.
But here you go again claiming that I'm not wanting to adequately punish real killers and to let them back out into society.
Okay so I will try again. I - in other words me, identifying myself as stella41b on this website and writing numerous posts, have expressed the opinion (i.e. what I think on a given subject) that I (me, stella41b, the same person) think life without parole is a better alternative to the death penalty.
Yes life WITHOUT parole, a life sentence in a prison which does NOTt involve parole or releasing convicted murderers back into society but instead keeps them safely locked inside a prison away from society until they die (i.e. stop living, breathing, etc).
Are we also clear on this point now?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Loki45
How about this system -- How about we let the victims of the crime or their families decide the fate? How about we get them into the courtroom and let the killer beg them for their lives? Then, for those who choose to let their killer live, in any subsequent case that killer has against them, the future victims can then call the original victims back as witnesses and have them accept their responsibility for letting the killer let in the first place.
Something similar happens under Sharia law and takes place in countries such as Nigeria, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Not much better is it?
I don't know, maybe to you it is. Maybe you're also in favour of secret trials and public executions as what happens in places such as Saudi Arabia and Iran where the cranes come and those convicted (whether guilty or not) are strung up for all to see.
Incidentally what's your position then on the families and relatives of those convicted of murder? (I haven't included rapists because Coker vs. Georgia 433 US 584 (1977) ruled that the sentence of death for the crime of rape where no killing was involved is grossly disproportionate and excessive punishment which violates the Eighth Amendment and is therefore unconstitutional). Should they be held responsible then when their relative commits a murder?
Have you also considered joining the Taliban? They have similar views on justice and capital punishment.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Loki45
quote:
ORIGINAL: stella41b
This is where we however agree. Life doesn't mean life, and in many cases I feel it should. I don't give a monkey's how much it costs, I want to live in a society which is relatively safe, which metes out justice and where those who present a danger to society or who have committed terrible crimes against its members are effectively removed from society for as long as deemed necessary and in some cases permanently.
Effective justice doesn't have to include the death penalty. There was a similar case to Susan Smith's which took place in Poland some years back. It's known as the 'Michal' case. Michal was aged 4 when his mother on the urging of her lover had her son thrown into the Vistula River in Warsaw leaving him to drown. Both she and her lover received 'dożywocie' - life imprisonment to the end of their natural lives, no parole, no remission, they stay there until they come out of prison in a coffin.
While this may be acceptable on the surface, it also carries with it the re-victimizing ability of the victims knowing their tax money is going to support the one who victimized them.
You might remember writing this.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Loki45
No one ever said our government or laws are perfect and flawless.
However you see the thing is once you have paid your taxes the money paid ceases to be your's but belongs to the government who can do with it what they feel best in order to do what they were elected to do.
There's no proof and no way of knowing where the money you or anyone else pays in taxes goes specifically as it all goes through what is called a treasury.
The justice system without the death penalty is far from perfect and yes innocent people get wrongly convicted for their crimes just as a considerable number get off lightly.
But you see with the death penalty two families have to be bereaved in order to achieve justice. This is not to mention the amount of public funds spent on not just trying to prove beyond reasonable doubt that someone is guilty but also the additional expense of examining aggravating and mitigating factors, of appeals for habeus corpus relief, appeals for post-conviction evidence, appeals for clemency, appeals for leniency, which is over and above the costs of keeping unproductive prisoners in prison (very few on Death Row work).
To me it's bad enough one family (or more) is bereaved through the actual crime without bereaving more families and much simpler to determine guilt or innocence, hand down a sentence and remove that person from society.
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