RE: Could we kindly cut the Nazi/communist crap? (Full Version)

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DomKen -> RE: Could we kindly cut the Nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 1:35:46 PM)

I used red herring in the correct sense. In both your discussion of health care reform and Dukakis you made comments on unrelated issues in an attempt to divert attention which is what a red herring is. Do not mistake me for someone who is going to get all scared because you think you can demonize me by pretending to be disappointed that I pointed out your use of a logical fallacy. As a matter fo fact what you just tried is ad hominen. You didn't address my points but you attacked me instead.

So much for rational discourse.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Could we kindly cut the Nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 1:49:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I used red herring in the correct sense. In both your discussion of health care reform and Dukakis you made comments on unrelated issues in an attempt to divert attention which is what a red herring is. Do not mistake me for someone who is going to get all scared because you think you can demonize me by pretending to be disappointed that I pointed out your use of a logical fallacy. As a matter fo fact what you just tried is ad hominen. You didn't address my points but you attacked me instead.

So much for rational discourse.

Just to be clear, any point that makes a case coming from the opposition you define as a "red herring"?

Any time you use the term it is an attempt to point to someone "demonetize" you?

And those issues eliminate the possibility of a "rational discourse"? Are your "ideals" so fragile that they are considered under attack when questioned? No wonder you're so adamant in your positions. You have a problem engaging in challenging discourse with any opposing view.

Convenient position to take in lieu of response either to the fact or how they represent "red herring". I provided an alternative view. I never said they weren't "patriotic" or "good". Neither you nor I can factually represent that they were, or would be "better" than those who took office because any representation would be speculation and NOT fact. So lets look at the FACTS.

FACT - You do not refute any of the Dukakis comments. ALL in response to your assessment that they lost because they were "destroyed" by the "right wing". Blame is key I know, but specifically regarding Willie Horton which you brought up and I didn't, did the "right wing" release him? Dukakis had plenty of opportunity as the Presidential candidate to document his position; yet you are apply it to right wing destruction instead of candidate failure. WOW.

FACT - The Health-Care point was in response to YOUR question. I guess if I let it go, as I almost did because I didn't notice it, I would have provided you the opportunity to accuse me of non response. Only in response it is now a "red herring".

DK - I'm so sorry for putting you in such a corner, but you painted the floor yourself.

Yup - That confirms your "ideals" are not only unique but are not backed up by personal integrity to follow them.




DomKen -> RE: Could we kindly cut the Nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 4:05:05 PM)

No. This whole paragraph was a red herring:
quote:

Speaking of "Scare Tactics" weren't we all supposed to experience some dire consequence if this wasn't passed in the artificial time line dictated, and then backed off from, by this Administration? Pass it now - read it later seemed to be the rallying cry. Made for an easy target for all the purported 'fear mongering' coming from the opposition. Actually, it made it quite easy to generate the suspicion that currently exists about the agenda of this Administration. But that's commentary and not representative of fact.


As was all this:
quote:

I would think what occurred with the viable Democratic candidate from that year, Gary Hart, would make your case better, or even Joe Biden's "plagiarizing" disclosure; back when integrity had a place in politics. Living through those times and as much as a political junkie as I am now; I recall the most negative campaigning came in the Democratic primaries from Al Gore directed at Richard Gephardt which cost him the UAW endorsement. You also had the very viable Jessie Jackson campaign which split the party, especially in the South.


Neither of those had anything to do with the subjects you were supposedly addressing. IOW red herrings.

This is obviously ad hominen
quote:

However, on the subject of the OP the use of "red herring" is very 'Rule - #5' of you. Are you adopting that as a representation of your "ideals"?

Since you had dropped red herrings into the discussion and my pointing them out did not prevent me from responding to the points you raised when they concerned the subject at hand.

Now if you really want to discuss anything I'll be happy to continue but the attacks and attempts at diversion have to stop.




rightwinghippie -> RE: Could we kindly cut the Nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 4:11:10 PM)

Right, Domken brings up Dukakis, and when responded to it becomes a red herring.

Domken brings up fear tactics, which when responded to becomes a red herring....





DomKen -> RE: Could we kindly cut the Nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 4:22:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie

Right, Domken brings up Dukakis, and when responded to it becomes a red herring.

Domken brings up fear tactics, which when responded to becomes a red herring....

Try that again. Nothing in that quoted section is about Dukakis' presidential campaign or about a right wing health care reform plan. Which were the subjects at hand. But thanks for continueing to prove the point.




rightwinghippie -> RE: Could we kindly cut the Nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 4:35:12 PM)

The subject, in as much as there is one anymore, is "cut the Nazi/communist crap". You are providing some funny entertainment as you attempt to proove that your side alone has good intentions though. Please continue.




rightwinghippie -> RE: Could we kindly cut the Nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 4:42:05 PM)

oops wrong thread




Mercnbeth -> RE: Could we kindly cut the Nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 4:43:16 PM)

quote:

But thanks for continueing to prove the point.
What IS the point? That you can't respond directly?

The response was to this challenge from you in reply to who the right wing; "destroyed" - YOUR WORDS!
quote:

We can start with Dukakis, Carter and Max Cleland


That would require acceptance that they were "destroyed". They lost - is that your definition? If it is, as stated, they generated and earned that result. There was not one representation made by me that referenced them under any label. You felt it necessary to do so in response. That, of course, speaks ill of me. Amazing!

Again - Your question/comment:
quote:

You've always claimed to be pro business and yet you're opposed to health care reform but you've never made any sort of cogent argument. How much higher do health care costs in the US have to go before they completely render all of our businesses non competitive in the world economy? Do you really think waiting till then to fix the system is the way to go?
I don't find it necessary to re-quote my answer, but how again is my response to YOU either a "red herring" or "ad hominem"? As a person representing such high "ideals" that all of us should follow, why is it so difficult to spell out your reference point.

Every difference of opinion is not an attack against a person, unless that person is paranoid, or can't defend his position any other way.

I was taking your point regarding attack by citing Gary Hart, and Joe Biden. They WERE attacked, both by other Democrats running against them and others. How is that an attack of you?!

Was I misquoting the Administration regarding their original position that is was critical to pass the Health Care Bill before the August recess? That was the headline. Regardless - that too was an attack against you?! Whoops - excuse me - that you defined as a "red herring". How is it that your "ideals" allow for factual representations and quotes to be "red herrings"?

quote:

Since you had dropped red herrings into the discussion and my pointing them out did not prevent me from responding to the points you raised when they concerned the subject at hand.
Help me out again here, I only see the words "red herring" and "ad hominem"; is that the sum and substance of your response?

Where are the facts in dispute? Where are those "ideals" you profess you represent? Avoidance and name calling attempts to qualify. I attacked your positions NOT you. Try doing the same if you have the ability. Faced with a "red herring" I'd treat it like any dead worthless fish - cut it up for bait. It is very easy.




DomKen -> RE: Could we kindly cut the Nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 5:02:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Help me out again here, I only see the words "red herring" and "ad hominem"; is that the sum and substance of your response?

If those are the only words you got from my response then you aren't trying. I'm bored of this. I responded to the responses you made that were on topic and pointed out the parts that weren't.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Could we kindly cut the Nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 5:20:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Help me out again here, I only see the words "red herring" and "ad hominem"; is that the sum and substance of your response?

If those are the only words you got from my response then you aren't trying. I'm bored of this. I responded to the responses you made that were on topic and pointed out the parts that weren't.
Yes - that is the only thing I got. Not only that I also have a blank page of rebuttal. So simple a task; turning "red herrings" into chum, and pointing to specific personal ("ad hominem") attacks. Yet you can't take it on; and that opportunity "bores" you.

I appreciate your total disclosure to the "ideals" you represent. I agree that they also speak to the political party you identify. Were someone so inept to take on Republican "ideals"; I'm sure I'd have just as much fun.

However you've served to illustrate those fine upstanding Democratic "ideals" better than any argument I'd be able to make against them; if you had the ability to do so.

Unlike you, I find this discussion not only NOT boring, but very enlightening.

I am very grateful for Firm providing the philosophy you represent. Documenting your ongoing attempts to use "Alinsky-ist" tactics will make it much easier to understand your agenda going forward. You know, re-reading all of your 'responses' to make sure I didn't miss some direct, on point reply, I note they are text book "Alinsky". How about that! Turns out your "ideals" have a name.




VanIsleKnight -> RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 5:38:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

This has gotten past the point of amusement. It is becoming a distraction to any rational discussion or debate that can take place. This is as true in these threads as it is in the town hall meetings.

Can we please take a moment for a quick cup of nice, cool reality?

Liberals are not communists. They do not want to destroy the democratic government process. They do not want to make this a welfare state. They do not want to turn this country into a new version of Stalinist Russia.

Conservatives are not fascists. They do not want to destroy the democratic government process. They do not want to make this a government only for rich, white Christians. They do not want to see anyone who is not a rich white Christian hunted down and destroyed.

We have serious differences in viewpoint. We have major differences in what we consider the appropriate actions are to solve the problems that face the country. But can we stop with the boogie man, communist, nazi nonsense long enough to maybe discuss the issues?





You know who wanted to discuss the issues?  HITLER!  You're not like -Hitler- are you?

Seriously though, I agree.  It really sucks when communications break down to the point of someone pulling a Godwin's Law and being serious about it.  *sighs*




Sanity -> RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 7:55:03 PM)


How about the words "con" and "neo-con" Spinner? I went back through some of your posts and found that you're fond of throwing those around fairly casually. Personally I think those two words are easily in the same league as "Nazi" and all the rest that have been mentioned.

Is your authoring the OP to this thread an indication that you intend to stop using them? And does this mean are you apologizing on your behalf and on behalf of everyone else who has been heavily dependent on using those words as daily insults over the last several years?




SpinnerofTales -> RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 8:07:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


How about the words "con" and "neo-con" Spinner? I went back through some of your posts and found that you're fond of throwing those around fairly casually. Personally I think those two words are easily in the same league as "Nazi" and all the rest that have been mentioned.



Let me get out my thesaurus and see how many words I can come up with for "Bullshit". Con and Neo Con up there with nazi, communist, fascist?  I don't know whether to laugh or just stand open mouthed in amazement. Using the term con for conservative or neo-con for neo-conservative is no more offensive than using the term dem for democrat. I haven't even objected to the term "lefty" for anyone with a more progressive agenda than the poster.

Congratulations. In a thread with recriminations, accusations and Monty Python sketches, you have achieved the silliest posting I have yet seen.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 8:44:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


How about the words "con" and "neo-con" Spinner? I went back through some of your posts and found that you're fond of throwing those around fairly casually. Personally I think those two words are easily in the same league as "Nazi" and all the rest that have been mentioned.



Let me get out my thesaurus and see how many words I can come up with for "Bullshit". Con and Neo Con up there with nazi, communist, fascist?  I don't know whether to laugh or just stand open mouthed in amazement. Using the term con for conservative or neo-con for neo-conservative is no more offensive than using the term dem for democrat. I haven't even objected to the term "lefty" for anyone with a more progressive agenda than the poster.

Congratulations. In a thread with recriminations, accusations and Monty Python sketches, you have achieved the silliest posting I have yet seen.


Congratulations.

In your OP you said:

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

We have serious differences in viewpoint. We have major differences in what we consider the appropriate actions are to solve the problems that face the country. But can we stop with the boogie man, communist, nazi nonsense long enough to maybe discuss the issues?


You've just illustrated why I hold the position that I've given in this thread, and exposed the fact that your original request to "play nice" was just a partisan play on your part all along.

Firm




FirmhandKY -> RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 9:36:19 PM)

Neoconservatism:

Criticism

The term neoconservative may be used pejoratively by self-described paleoconservatives, Democrats, and by libertarians.


Antisemitism

Some believe that criticism of neoconservatism is often a euphemism for criticism of Jews, in particular conservative Jews, and that the term has been adopted by the political left to stigmatize support for Israel. In The Chronicle of Higher Education, Robert J. Lieber warned that criticism of the 2003 Iraq War had spawned[56]

a conspiracy theory purporting to explain how [American] foreign policy... has been captured by a sinister and hitherto little-known cabal. A small band of neoconservative (read, Jewish) defense intellectuals... has taken advantage of 9/11 to put their ideas over on [Bush]... Thus empowered, this neoconservative conspiracy, "a product of the influential Jewish-American faction of the Trotskyist movement of the '30s and '40s" ([Michael] Lind)... has fomented war with Iraq... in the service of Israel's Likud government (Patrick J. Buchanan and [Eric Alterman).


Criticism of the term neoconservative

Some critics reject the idea that there is a neoconservative movement separate from traditional American conservatism. Traditional conservatives are skeptical of the contemporary usage of the term and dislike being associated with its stereotypes or supposed agendas. Columnist David Harsanyi wrote, "These days, it seems that even temperate support for military action against dictators and terrorists qualifies you a neocon."[55] Jonah Goldberg rejected the label as trite and over-used, arguing "There's nothing 'neo' about me: I was never anything other than conservative."


***



From the "Urban Dictionary" which keeps track of current popular usage of the term:

1. Neocon

Neoconservative. Criminally insane spenders that believe in killing brown people for the new world order. Huge Orwellian government, unfathomable amounts of spending, bomb tens of thousands of people to death to rearrange the globe. Take the worst aspects of the liberal and conservative positions and combine them into one and you would have a NeoCon.

Neocons are the greatest threat to life, liberty and property this country has ever known.




2. neocon

Morally idealistic conservatatives. neocon is short for neo-conservative. Neocons separate themselves from Republicans that are traditionally fiscal conservative.

Slang - Crusading republican.

Slang - Neocons exist separated into two very distinct groups. The largest, group one, are the people below the 99th income percentile. They are religous and/or war-mongering blowhard lemmings who follow the second group; The second group is made up of the top one percent. They cut taxes for themselves, borrow trillions (second term pending), and their behavior is largely the subject of this blog. Of necessity, they pay Rove to pipe tabloid for the Rats. Lemmings rather. Whichever, they both work.

Vlugar - White bible thumping trash.

The draft-dodging neocons running the white house are threatening our future as a great nation.




3. neocon

Neoconservative. Originally used to describe left-wingers who crossed the floor, neocons are on the authoritarian right, rather than the traditionally conservative libertarian right. They tend to be very pro-war and adopt the mentality of "We're better than you and we know it."

Some more vulgar people call them Neocunts.

"I don't really like Kerry, but I'd rather see him in power than those horrendous neocons who currently run things!"




4. neocon


Someone whose political views represent the worst of both worlds: fiscally liberal, socially conservative.

Bush is a neocon because he supports racking up a huge deficit while dictating people's personal lives.




5. neocon

1. Small group of politicians coming from as early as the Ford administration up to the Bush II administration.

2. Have a fake pretense about believing in smaller government. In reality believe in big spending and tax cuts for their wealthy political and business friends, hence deficit spending.

3. They fake being social conservatives, although true social conservatives believe they really care about social issues. Neocons distract the public by acting like they really care about social issues like gay marriage, abortion, and flag burning. Meanwhile they are busy conducting wars and stifling your freedom.

4. Believe in costly wars and creating boogeymen to try and make you think only they can keep you safe while they restrict your freedoms to "protect you". This is their signature issue, to help keep them in power.

5. Actually despise any types of small government advocates, Barry Goldwater, traditional live and let live conservative, and libertarians.

George Bush I and II, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, are all a bunch of neocons.



6. neocon

1: Republicans who favor social authoritarianism and plutocracy

2: Anti-Intellectualists, and economic stagnationists.

3: Complete and utter dirtbags of pure, unrefined trash that only look out for their own wealth and contribute nothing to the betterment of man kind.

Worthless. Malignant. Junk.

In an act characteristic of the Nazis, the neocons are now proposing that all people who make less than $50,000 a year be exterminated in concentration camps along with the gays, ethnic peoples and atheists.




7. neocon

The only kind of Republican that can justifiably be a called a nazi.

Thanks to the Neocons, Godwin's Law is now obsolete.



There are four more pages of definitions. All about the same.

But to you, it's a term of endearment, huh?

Firm




SpinnerofTales -> RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 9:51:53 PM)

quote:

You've just illustrated why I hold the position that I've given in this thread, and exposed the fact that your original request to "play nice" was just a partisan play on your part all along.
ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY



Congratulations on the SECOND silliest post of this thread. First, I never said we had to act like aunties at a tea party. I have never once said a word about being referred to as a lefty, a dem or a bleeding heart liberal. This is a political discussion board, not a cotillion. However, if you can't tell the difference between "con/dem/righest/righty/leftist/lefty" and "nazi/commie/unamerican" then you really are so far off the charts that arguing with you IS, as Barny Frank said, like arguing with a dining room table.

Tell you what...if I agree to refer to you and yours as "Mr or Ms Conservative Centerists, Sir or Ma
am" will you then PLEASE put the swastikas down and discuss issues like a rational adult?




FirmhandKY -> RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 10:03:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

But can we stop with the boogie man, communist, nazi nonsense long enough to maybe discuss the issues?



quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Tell you what...if I agree to refer to you and yours as "Mr or Ms Conservative Centerists, Sir or Maam" will you then PLEASE put the swastikas down and discuss issues like a rational adult?


Do I really need to say anything?

The irony, oh, the irony ...

Firm




Kirata -> RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 10:08:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

The irony, oh, the irony ...

Projection is a wondrous thing to behold.

K.






philosophy -> RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 10:18:22 PM)

A somewhat more reasonable discussion of the term neoconservatism can be found here........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism




FirmhandKY -> RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? (9/1/2009 10:20:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

A somewhat more reasonable discussion of the term neoconservatism can be found here........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism

You're right philo.

The very first link in my above post, and the first three bullets are from that article.

It's a good overview.

Firm




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