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FirmhandKY -> RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? (8/31/2009 4:54:03 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: philosophy
.......i agree, but the idea that only one side needs to be civil isn't my argument. i thought that what i was arguing for was the idea that both sides need to lose the partisanship and seek common ground.
I would like this. I just no longer expect it. I think the pendulum has swing too far.
quote:
ORIGINAL: philosophy
Seems to me that this is the core of the issue this thread is about. The willingness or not to seek that common ground. i like to think that you and i have actively tried to do this in our debates. Doesn't stop us disagreeing, doesn't mean either of us have to compromise our core principles. Just means that instead of demonising the other we try to remember that the other is arguing in good faith.
Philo, we have entered into some really good discussions, even knowing that neither of us are likely to change the other's mind. But we didn't start out that way, did we?
I remember clearly when our dynamic changed. I'll not review it here, as I'm sure you remember what you posted to me, my response and now you see the result.
The key is respect, and the toleration of disagreement.
But the problem is that it takes both sides to come to the same realization. It takes both sides to be willing to either take that first step, or to accept someone who offers the olive branch.
When one side extends an olive branch, it's accepted, and then the branch is used to beat them about the head and shoulders, it's unlikely (and not rational) to continue to seek peace.
We can still do this on a personal level, here on the boards (sometimes), but my prognosis is that by the time this administration is out of office the damage to trust will be so damaged that both sides will be firmly entrenched and distrustful that no easy accommodation will be possible.
Death spiral indeed.
quote:
ORIGINAL: philosophy
Somehow i doubt that Ann Coulter would allow a hypothetical discussion with me to be so civil.
Ann Coulter makes absolutely no bones about the fact that she attacks the left the same way that the left attacks the right. She is indeed working Alinsky tactics.
And she's pretty successful isn't she? And pretty damn funny if you are on the right.
Of course, as a right leaning political humorous, she still is in the minority. Think about the political oriented "humorist" on the left who have been doing this for years: George Carlin (RIP), Bill Maher, Jon Stewart (to a lesser extent), Janeane Garofalo (who is never funny), David Letterman, Lewis Black, Al Franken etc, etc, etc. I'm sure that others can add more.
quote:
ORIGINAL: philosophy
There's another dimension to this. In my view, it doesn't matter who starts a fight as much as it matters who ends it. Let's say i agree with your analysis of Alinsky (i'm not sure i do, but let's table that for now). By your own admission those on the right are no longer (if they ever were) innocent of those same tactics. Both sides are now as bad the other. We're past the point of identifying the causes, we ought to be looking for solutions. In my view, the part of the solution within our grasp is to take on the point the OP was getting at.......lose the name calling, stop this useless demonising. No one side can win using this aggressive approach. It's a death spiral.
Identifying the causes is always important, even if only for historical reasons when the next government and political system is forged on this continent.
I also disagree that the right is "as bad" as the other. As I said in another thread to tazzy, that is simply a method to excuse the guilt on both sides.
I do think there is still a large reservoir on the right of people who do not want to be involved in the BS. That's why the more independents tend to identify themselves as "conservative" rather than "liberal". People who do not condone Alinsky tactics are self-selecting themselves out of both parties and the political process as this Alinsky culture of political "diss-coarse" increases.
It's why so many people are saying that it's time for a third way.
On the flip side, this dynamic is tending to leave the type of people in both political parties who have no problem with using Alinsky tactics, and therefore causing both parties to become just two hands of the same beast, with people without desire to compromise or compunction about using the worst techniques (You always run the risk of become who you fight).
Politics has often been accused of having no honor, and no morals, but (in the US at least), that's generally been a statement of hyperbole. Not so much any more.
And I'm pretty pessimistic that any change is possible.
Firm
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