RE: Obey

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NihilusZero -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 4:50:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW I know that, for myself, a single episode of intentional disobedience wouldn't necessarily end our relationship as a -family-... but it would certainly impact our relationship as a Keeper/servant dynamic. It would impact my capacity to know that the servant will do as xhe is told... it will put a 'kink' in my trust in hir. In the same way, allowing something like that to slide, just because I care about hir, would take away that servant's assurance of my position as the holder of the authority in the relationship. I'm not talking about -accidental- disobedience here -- making a mistake or forgetting something, because those will happen, and genuine contrition on the part of the servant (and perhaps some improvement of planning on both sides of the kneel, if it seems like it will improve functionality) will settle these for me, as long as 'forgetting' doesn't become a habit. What I'm talking about is the -intentional- decision to disobey... and to me, this marks a deep-seated issue in the relationship, so while a single incident of intentional disobedience won't necessarily -end- our relationship (though it -could-, if the infraction were serious enough), it will definitely breach the foundations of that relationship, and -that- may eventually mark the decimation of the dynamic. Certainly, more than one incident of intentional disobedience marks a profound disconnect in the fluid of the dynamic, and if it has gotten to this point, the end of the dynamic is inevitable in any case, because I will have lost all capacity to believe that the servant in question will be capable of yielding authority to me and meaning it -- so I will no longer be able to count on that, which means that I will no longer have any interest in the ongoing idea of continually -testing- the dynamic, and wondering if it will hold up. If a servant lies to me about disobeying, that is the end of the relationship, with or without the dynamic, as that will completely dissolve my capacity to believe in either the person or the dynamic. Dame Calla 30 points. [:)]

DesFIP -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 5:01:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CaringandReal quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Obedience is not the primary focus of our relationship. I'm not a servant, I'm much more of a pet. The primary focus of our relationship is emotional transparency and you can't have that and obedience even when you hate what you are doing without damaging the emotional relationship. Or at least we can't. Even short term resentment will cause problems. Either he knows I'm spending that time disliking him, or I have to become nontransparent. Since he isn't a sadist, he objects to knowing I dislike him and since the core of the relationship is transparency me occluding it damages the core. We have found that if I obey when I hate the task, and therefore for however short a period of time hate him, that it isn't good for us. Interesting post. A couple of comments/questions. Why wouldn't a sadist you were in relation to object to knowing you dislike him? Sadists have feelings too! ;) Also, if you tried changing your mindset about the task (turning the hate to love or even to lukewarm like) what happened when you tried that? The idea of being a pet vs. a servant is also an interesting one. The primary roles submissives serve in relationships is interesting to me. Besides pet (i see this as more sexual than worker based, although some dominants do interpret that word a bit literally :/) and servant, what other roles are there? I know some dominants (mostly women but also the occasional man) who want their slaves to be bodyguards. I hear "my right hand" or "tool" sometimes, too. A sadist might enjoy emotional sadism, making me angry, resentful, hate filled. I can't imagine that such feelings if held long term would help the relationship last. But that's a guess because we don't get off on s & m. As far as I can tell the three main motivations for a s type is service, obedience or emotional transparency. Service types will be happy proactively scrubbing the floor. Obedience types don't get off doing it on their own, they much prefer to be ordered to. And emotional transparency types would prefer to be told that he's squicked by the floor being sticky. The results, the floor being washed will be the same but how it is presented makes a significant difference in our feelings towards it.

blmtrsne -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 5:19:03 PM)
My slave has to do what I decide. And he will.

kyraofMists -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 6:13:31 PM)
I wanted to come back to this thread because I didn't quite get to finish all the thoughts in my head. I am by no means a paragon of perfection. I have fucked up in this relationship, made some dumb choices and created a lot of stress for all of us. And I am pretty sure that he and Alandra would say the same things about themselves. The one thing that I have held onto with all of the challenges that we have faced is that I wanted to be in this relationship more than I wanted anything else. There was one time in the first year of our relationship that I tread very close to the line of willful disobedience. That night stands out so clearly in my mind; I was allowing my emotions to control my behavior and I was getting out of line. He said very clearly to me that if I did not do what he wanted in that moment that he would consider this willful disobedience. In many ways, that was a turning point for me. It took me several minutes to gain control of myself enough to do what he told me to do and I was very angry while doing it. However, it was a choice that I had to make in that moment. Did I want to be in this relationship and do his will or did I want out. There is no compromise in this. I do his will or I am in a relationship with the wrong person. That night was a clear lesson that I could control my behavior despite my emotional state and that I wanted this relationship more than I wanted anything else. There really isn't any other choice than to obey him. When the only other options are ones that you would not choose, then there really isn't a choice. My emotions no longer control my behavior; if they do it is pretty difficult for him to have authority over my behavior. He won't pander to my emotions and he expects me to do his will no matter what my emotional state is. For us, to obey or leave is no more a threat than the vow to forsake all others is a threat to monogamous couples. It isn't in me to willfully disobey him, just like it isn't in me to be unfaithful to him. Knight's Kyra

Andalusite -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 6:21:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: agirl *I am not always* obedient, I never WILL always be obedient.** So, if you can do X task and choose not to, doing so in a framework where you are essentially weighing the scales in your head for your own benefit and decide you'd rather just take the consequences, then I'm a bit confused as to where the authority is. The way I interpreted it was "I'm not perfect." Personally, I can't think of a situation in which I'd deliberately be defiant or rebellious or disobedient for no good reason. It upsets me if I disappoint my Master, and I feel very driven to do his will - almost like my body is an extension of his mind at times. I can't forsee the future, though, and I don't feel I can honestly promise to never disobey, when I can't know what he'll ask of me! quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero And even in situations where the end of the relationship is brought up as a possibility, there is a difference between using that as motivator and using it as a description of the honest and objective analysis of the relationship. I can understand the distinction theoretically. In practice, anyone who brought that up as their default approach to a single disobedience or conflict would be incompatible with me, since I would interpret it the first way on some levels, and it would leave me very stressed out and "waiting for the shoe to drop," even when I wasn't doing anything wrong. quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant When I also state in my profile that "it is my way or the highway", that is not a matter of black and white "you will hit the road if you do not do this" but it is a reminder that this dynamic, while structured by both of us, has me as the leader, me as the responsible one, me as the one who bears the brunt when what I've taken responsibility for goes awry. It is a reminder that disobedience will be met with a serious discussion as to why the disobedience took place. ...But I also expect the submissive to remember that a great deal of her submission is supposed to be about the pleasure she gets from "yielding to the will of another". If obedience is yielding, then pleasure should be felt, should it not? If by "my way or the highway" or "one screwup and you're gone," you mean "we'll have a serious discussion about it," then why not say it the second way instead? Putting up an ultimatum, then backing down comes across to me as a bit odd. Yes, there is pleasure in yielding, in obedience, even when I have mixed feelings. My previous Dominant felt that I was not expressing submission unless I didn't enjoy it on some level, otherwise it was just having fun together. He made a point of doing things I actively disliked, and making me either beg him to do them or stop doing them, quite frequently. It worked fine for both of us, and I did get pleasure from the compliance even when it hurt or was upsetting in ways I didn't like. Sometimes, the enjoyment isn't quite enough to allow me to physically or emotionally handle something, though, in which case he wanted me to let him know. If anything, I erred on the side of trying too hard, and it did have ramifications for me which he hadn't intended. I tried to cover everything I could think of that was a potential concern (not necessarily limits, but "this is difficult for me to do, or I'm worried about that") up front, before I committed to ownership by my Master. We discussed his perceptions of the difference between a submissive and a slave, and how it would actually affect my expected behaviour, not just theory. I've already been able to do some of those difficult things, but he didn't approach it by ordering them, just gave me a standing order to work toward it, express my thoughts about it, ask for help as needed, and take the initiative of bringing them up when I felt ready. That approach inspired me to push myself to try to do more of what he wants, to be what he wants, rather than me reacting against him. It's my responsibility to let him know if I'm sick or otherwise having difficulty, but I usually try to do that proactively, rather than waiting until he wants something from me. Occasionally, I can request a minor modification which makes it an easier task for me, or request that we collaborate to find a way to make sure he gets what he needs. Sometimes, he wants me to struggle through and do it anyway. Sometimes it's not particularly important to him, so I get a reprieve - it's in his hands.[:D]

catize -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 7:39:15 PM)
quote: Exactly, that is what I expect of My girl also. I would go further and say thay she gets more satisfaction from achieving things she dislikes doing, it is no more or less 'submissive' in absolute terms than doing something I require of her than she enjoys however she has to apply herself with more focus on her submission rather than simply enjoying the task. The tough stuff is my way to let him know I meant what I said when I agreed to submit; that he, as well as the relationship is important. And since there is a great deal of fun stuff too, it simply underlines that we are a very good match!

catize -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 7:44:57 PM)
quote: 2 points: So you are giving yourself points now???[:D] quote: 1) You perhaps cannot change whether you like something or not but you sure as heck can control how honorably you deal with such a situation. For the most part, time and trust and experience have desensitized me so that things which were difficult at first have become much easier. I can see past the discomfort and know that it will turn out well in the end. There remain a few other things (very few but they are there) that I do obey but the best ‘tude he’s going to get is tearfulness or a grim determination to abide by my agreement to obey him. quote: 2) An s-type with a primary motivation to please (who is not being given a fatal or dangerous or illegal act) being given a chance to do so via a task wouldn't (/shouldn't) have a mindset where preference would trump their obedience. Since I prefer their dominance as opposed to, oh say, mine!.... I can agree with this as well.

catize -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 8:13:43 PM)
quote: But I also expect the submissive to remember that a great deal of her submission is supposed to be about the pleasure she gets from "yielding to the will of another". If obedience is yielding, then pleasure should be felt, should it not? It took a bit of experience to realize that sometimes the pleasure of obedience comes after, not during. In a convoluted sort of way that is the part of the dynamic that preserves my interest in continuing my relationships with R. and S.

MaamJay -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 8:15:33 PM)
Phew what a mighty thread! It was expanding faster than I could read for a time there. As a Domme, My view of obedience was summarised neatly by LadyPact's original post and explicated further by several other posters. Yes I can take into account mitigating factors, but continual wilful disobedience = big problem and, like MasterFireMaam, I did get to the stage with the ex-"sub"-hubby where it became "My way or the highway" and it turned out to be a very long highway all across the continent! (Btw MFM, wishing You all the best in Your new relationship!). Last year I was in long negotiations with a sub, met him, had 2 good play meets, then I asked him to do something I considered valuable (for reasons I explained, including being exposed to other people's ideas) and non-harming - read these forums and post at least once a week. When he refused point blank, there were long conversations in which he gave his reasons, I considered and responded to them, then reiterated the order with clarification (ie he didn't have to "spill his guts in public", I made it clear a simple "thanks, i learned a lot" would do). When he still refused, then the highway beckoned as there just wasn't any way forward from there. Another observation is that I've found the objections come more often with "everyday life" aspects of submission than from the obvious bdsm play aspects. As a sub, i'd love to say i never disobey Master, but to be more truthful, i can say that i don't wilfully disobey. i don't say i'll do something and then deliberately forget, and i don't tell Him no get stuffed either! However, it's true that i'm not the fastest slave on the market, and i don't leap to my feet (as i probably should) or drop everything the instant an order is given. Master's realised that wouldn't always be practical and so after many initial discussions and a fair bit of trial and error, we have settled into a style that encompasses that. Master will say "I'd like dinner by 7.30pm" and it will generally be ready by then give or take 5 min allowing for variations in cooking time beyond my control. He's not going to "go off" about those few minutes, but He will be seriously pissed if i'm still at the computer at 7.30pm and dinner hasn't even been started. There'd have to be an extremely good reason for my still being at the computer (eg my supervisor requires an urgent answer about something to do with my PhD) and i should have notified Him of the potential delay straight away. Playing Bejewelled just isn't gonna cut it LOL! So we do have a more laid back style than most, but there is a core of obedience there, and an unwillingness on my part to disrupt that. He also knows that if i start to get out of line (to argue rather than question for eg), He can pull me back into line very quickly with a reminder of my place and to whom i am speaking. i love that He can do that! I'm aware that should I find a 24/7 sub, initially it would appear that I would expect more prompt obedience out of him than Master might get out of me. I see that 2 ways - (1) it might actually sharpen me up so i'm leading by example, which probably wouldn't be a bad thing and (2) I would see My requirements being more stringent as shaping the relationship in the right way. An interesting thread, thanks everyone! Maam Jay aka violet[A]

NuevaVida -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 8:31:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I'm wondering how other people feel about the concept of obedience in D/s. As this thread has shown, obedience in D/s varies, depending on the person and the type of D/s dynamic. For me it's really simple - if I'm not obeying I really don't see the point of the relationship. As has been said, there is willful disobedience and circumstantial disobedience. Since I would do anything I could to obey his orders of me, my "what's the point" re: disobedience applies to willful disobedience. This relationship is still quite new but the amount of communication that takes place has us both in alignment on many levels. He is not going to expect me to cross my own boundaries or to be untrue to myself. The pace he is leading us is so slow, careful, deliberate and thought through, that I see he sees his own responsibility for what he is requiring. We are nowhere near where we are heading, but obeying him as we get there has become second nature. As we progress forward, I really don't see that changing, based on the way he is leading us.

NihilusZero -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 10:18:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Andalusite I can understand the distinction theoretically. In practice, anyone who brought that up as their default approach to a single disobedience or conflict would be incompatible with me, since I would interpret it the first way on some levels, and it would leave me very stressed out and "waiting for the shoe to drop," even when I wasn't doing anything wrong. I would agree with this sentiment. I certainly don't think the prospect of leaving should be a threat at all. It should be brought as a genuine concern for the status of the relationship. Admittedly, though, it's not easy to express that distinction during the reality of the moment and it can be easy for the s-type to feel it's a form of pre-punishment even if it isn't. I try to take considerable effort in making my thoughts on this clear when the situation arises.

chellekitty -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 10:27:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: catize quote: I find myself less capable of maintaining a staunch declarative position with tasks when I encounter a temperamental attitude towards doing them. Realistically speaking, to say that I don't expect my s-type to necessarily like what she is being told to do is not also a carte blanche to display irreverent behavior while still doing it. This line of reasoning would cause me to consider improving my acting skills. Both R. and S. are fully aware of the few things I don’t like because I have told them so. In our relationships, this goes under the heading of open communication. I’m not interested in faking how I feel about a task or rule or command. I can hate the task/rule/command yet find a satisfaction in my obedience despite the fact it isn’t easy for me and also because they expect it anyway. edited for an errant letter s. There is a big difference between the supposed expectations for the s-type to fake their feelings or better their theatrical skills and expecting the s-type to share discontent respectfully and yieldingly rather than throwing a passive aggressive tantrum. 2 points: 1) You perhaps cannot change whether you like something or not but you sure as heck can control how honorably you deal with such a situation. 2) An s-type with a primary motivation to please (who is not being given a fatal or dangerous or illegal act) being given a chance to do so via a task wouldn't (/shouldn't) have a mindset where preference would trump their obedience. This particular part of the thread brings to mind a concept that is often discussed in 12 step groups - acting your way into better thinking. That is not saying to lie or to be decietful, but rather to act as if the "right" thing to do (in this case, obedience to imperferable, but not "fatal or dangerous or illegal act") is something they want to do and is pleasing to them, and eventually it will become a something they think better of...however this takes time and repetition, so typically one time of doing it isn't going to work... On the other hand personally, i believe that if the s-type has done it repeatedly with an attitude of "acting their way into better thinking" and it still is something that is imperferable to them, it crosses the line into being something emotionally or psychologically damaging... quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists To willfully disobey him, would create a huge breach of trust in our relationship. His promise to us is that he will not intentionally harm us or our relationship; willfully disobeying means that I have intentionally harmed him and our relationship. It is something that just doesn't happen and there would have to be some really extreme circumstances to cause it to happen. This does not mean that disobedience does not happen from time to time. There are times that I forget to do something. That is not something that happens often with me and it is a good indicator that I am overloaded at the moment. There are times that he gives orders that might contradict each other. If we can't get in touch with him then we have to make the best decision possible and live with the consequences. There are times that things beyond our control prevent us from doing what he wants. When I replied previously, I hadn't even thought of willful disobedience...to me that concept is foriegn...and you made a good point that i highlighted...my disobedience that i mentioned in my previous post comes from things like what you mentioned in the second paragraph i quoted...

NihilusZero -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 10:36:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chellekitty This particular part of the thread brings to mind a concept that is often discussed in 12 step groups - acting your way into better thinking. That is not saying to lie or to be decietful, but rather to act as if the "right" thing to do (in this case, obedience to imperferable, but not "fatal or dangerous or illegal act") is something they want to do and is pleasing to them, and eventually it will become a something they think better of...however this takes time and repetition, so typically one time of doing it isn't going to work... On the other hand personally, i believe that if the s-type has done it repeatedly with an attitude of "acting their way into better thinking" and it still is something that is imperferable to them, it crosses the line into being something emotionally or psychologically damaging... All of this hinges, however, on whether the s-type definitively has the desire to please to begin with. That becomes the motivating factor to even begin upon the path of working towards bettering the reaction or even to think that such a goal is something they would feel in a positive goal from the beginning. Someone has to willingly sign up for the gym membership in order to have the personal trainers presume that's the direction they've chosen to go in.

agirl -> RE: Obey (9/2/2009 2:22:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: agirl I simply am not obedient ALL of the time. That's a fact and the truth. That really isn't indicative of someone that plays whimsy with every request. The entire relationship wouldn't fly if that was the case. I originally was going to reply to your comment asking if you were talking about being disobedient as an assessment of what Jeff called "all the normal human failings" (because, obviously, mistakes and accidents happen in life), but you continued on in the following paragraph with this: quote: ORIGINAL: agirl *I can't think of a single occasion where I couldn't* obey ....I only have ones where I wouldn't or didn't want to.** Which seemed to indicate to me that it wasn't about honest mistakes, but about your willing refusal to obey. Even if it isn't all the time, that choice is an active contradiction to the decision to be in an authority transfer. Now, sure...such relationships do not have to be a one-strike-you're-out type deal...but if this sort of thing happens often, it does beg the question of if such a relationship is the right fit. It might not be the choice of relationship most people with my personality would choose, no. But it still suits me. I'm not a submissive personality, I didn't choose it out of a drive to please and serve....I chose it because I wanted his control. I have pointed out, twice now, that it doesn't happen often but that it DOES happen. An example being...I am meant to be in bed at 11pm each night......sometimes I'm late for no good reason other than I am caught up in doing something and finish it off knowing I'm going to be late. quote: ORIGINAL: agirl Let me elaborate. I wouldn't have thrown my lot in with him if I DIDN'T think that what he said, asked, chose, commanded, ordered or requested made sense ... to ME. Not to YOU , or to anyone else. I wouldn't have asked to belong to him if he was in the habit of making me jump through dopey circus hoops for his own entertainment. That's the whole point, though. You chose him because his decision-making skills make sense to you. So why would you fail to obey at any point unless you were (intentionally or not) trying to subvert them? *Because I'm thinking about what I* want and what I'm doing.** I quote: ORIGINAL: agirl No...there aren't conflicting views of what makes sense...as I pointed out clearly. There aren't any conflicting views on obedience either. I meant between you and him. Every time you refuse an order there is a set of conflicting views on the task. No there isn't. I know that I'm meant to be in bed at a certain time, I know that it's the best thing for me and I know what the result will be if I'm not. quote: ORIGINAL: agirl The fact is, despite all of that .....I am not obedient ALL of the time in ALL circumstances because of the person that I am. I can't say anything other than that because over many years that IS the case. And I would applaud this honest admission as it, at very least, informs your partner of what they should and should not expect from you. However...have you addressed this occasionally itch to refuse orders willingly as an issue you feel you should try to correct or have you chalked it up as something that you feel is/must-be inherent to your persona and, therefore, should not be adjusted/sacrificed? I would say it's adequately adressed, yes. If he feels it's worth owning me despite the fact that I'm occasionally disobedient, I would say that there's obviously something about owning me that gives him a great deal of satisfaction. quote: ORIGINAL: agirl If I wasn't willing and earnest, if I couldn't be arsed, if I questioned everything, day in and day out NEITHER of us would be here. It'd be a complete waste of time for us both. So, would you say you dance close to the threshold for how much he feels is an acceptable amount of willing disobedience? Do you feel trying to reduce the propensity for it is something worth working towards? Please keep in mind that while I may be replying in a way that seems critical of the words you are using, I'm not intending to actually demean your situation and, obviously, if it's working for you then that's all that matters, but one thing about this kinda irks me: It seems like there is the (at least latent) suggestion that if an s-type informs the D-type of their proclivity to potentially disobey, then , once in the relationship, it is or can be treated as an excuse to not work on bettering that aspect, if it is something detrimental to the relationship. It's a two-sided sword: sure, it can be said that the D-type was told in advance what they could look forward to expecting...but can't it also be said that the disclosure doesn't mean the s-type shouldn't put forth the effort to be more pleasing (specifically since D/s dynamics are normally based on that interaction)? I didn't inform him of anything actually NZ.... He knew me for years as a close friend before he owned me. He knew all he needed to when he made the decision to accept me. He was totally aware of my nature, my personality and knew what to expect, as did I, of his. Neither of us expected it to be plain sailing. He's known me for a decade now and owned me for half of that time......occasional lapses of obedience to rules really are very small issues when taken in context of the things I've had to accept as an owned person over many years. It isn't always easy to own me and it isn't always easy for me to be owned......but it's been worth every moment over a very long time. It's been a challenge in a lot of ways and of course, without stating the history of our relationship, you aren't aware of where we began and why we are where we are now. My statement that I am disobedient isn't some belligerent, bolshy posturing. Just because I know myself well enough to know that I will never be perfectly obedient doesn't mean that I think it's fine, either. It was a bald statement of something that both he and I are perfectly aware of. agirl

abuddingdom -> RE: Obey (9/2/2009 5:03:30 AM)
I stand by my words, agirl. Obedience is not only a cornerstone of our relationship but of my developing style&philosophy. This is a case of "different strokes for different folks" : you choose to disobey occasionally for your reasons & it works for you&Master, whereas there's no room for disobedience in my life asa D type. I speak or I write & she obeys, pure&simple. I'm more than open to discussion most of the time but as I previously said she ultimately obeys whether she's in total agreement with me or not. It wouldn't work for us otherwise. Structure's paramount & it would collapse if she weren't obedient.

CaringandReal -> RE: Obey (9/2/2009 6:24:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP A sadist might enjoy emotional sadism, making me angry, resentful, hate filled. I can't imagine that such feelings if held long term would help the relationship last. But that's a guess because we don't get off on s & m. Oh, Ok. That makes sense.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Obey (9/2/2009 7:20:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Andalusite quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant When I also state in my profile that "it is my way or the highway", that is not a matter of black and white "you will hit the road if you do not do this" but it is a reminder that this dynamic, while structured by both of us, has me as the leader, me as the responsible one, me as the one who bears the brunt when what I've taken responsibility for goes awry. It is a reminder that disobedience will be met with a serious discussion as to why the disobedience took place. ...But I also expect the submissive to remember that a great deal of her submission is supposed to be about the pleasure she gets from "yielding to the will of another". If obedience is yielding, then pleasure should be felt, should it not? If by "my way or the highway" or "one screwup and you're gone," you mean "we'll have a serious discussion about it," then why not say it the second way instead? Putting up an ultimatum, then backing down comes across to me as a bit odd. Because I don't use "my way or the highway" as an ultimatum, I use it as an expression of the way the dynamic is structured. It is explained quite clearly in my profile and I've explained it several times on here. There are other dominants on this thread who've expressed the same sentiment...which is a simple explanation of the overall concept...and then have gone on to clarify the complexity of what lies beneath the concept. If I meant it as an ultimatum, then there would be no explanation in my profile and no further explanation given when I speak to a submissive about my thoughts and feelings regarding a D/s dynamic. I feel that if you ---the generic you---can read all that I have in my profile and still see only the "declaration" as an ultimatum, then we are going to be in for a lot of discussion until you get to know me or you are going to veer away from me because of my "use" of ultimatums. While I have no problem with the use of an ultimatum, it is not my fall-back position nor is it my default...it comes about only after there has been a serious attempt made to rectify a situation and the resistance being met is seen by me---and her---as willful but also being seen as "an exceptional exception". Then, as noted, it becomes a reminder that it is my will that is supposed to be yielded to, not hers. quote: Yes, there is pleasure in yielding, in obedience, even when I have mixed feelings. My previous Dominant felt that I was not expressing submission unless I didn't enjoy it on some level, otherwise it was just having fun together. He made a point of doing things I actively disliked, and making me either beg him to do them or stop doing them, quite frequently. It worked fine for both of us, and I did get pleasure from the compliance even when it hurt or was upsetting in ways I didn't like. Sometimes, the enjoyment isn't quite enough to allow me to physically or emotionally handle something, though, in which case he wanted me to let him know. If anything, I erred on the side of trying too hard, and it did have ramifications for me which he hadn't intended. I tried to cover everything I could think of that was a potential concern (not necessarily limits, but "this is difficult for me to do, or I'm worried about that") up front, before I committed to ownership by my Master. We discussed his perceptions of the difference between a submissive and a slave, and how it would actually affect my expected behaviour, not just theory. I've already been able to do some of those difficult things, but he didn't approach it by ordering them, just gave me a standing order to work toward it, express my thoughts about it, ask for help as needed, and take the initiative of bringing them up when I felt ready. That approach inspired me to push myself to try to do more of what he wants, to be what he wants, rather than me reacting against him. It's my responsibility to let him know if I'm sick or otherwise having difficulty, but I usually try to do that proactively, rather than waiting until he wants something from me. Occasionally, I can request a minor modification which makes it an easier task for me, or request that we collaborate to find a way to make sure he gets what he needs. Sometimes, he wants me to struggle through and do it anyway. Sometimes it's not particularly important to him, so I get a reprieve - it's in his hands.[:D] As it should be.[:)]

kdsub -> RE: Obey (9/2/2009 7:54:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero This is an argument for a relationship built on topping from the bottom. The Dom taking the time to uphold their end of a relationship is building love along with trust and happiness. Demanding by the submissive that they do so is not topping….It is just filling their needs…and it is no less the job of the Dom to please than the submissive...If not what are you doing together. quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero And this is a tautology. The missing point being, however, that a D/s or M/s relationship is built on the s-type's obedience and their willing desire to make obedience their primary focus. Nope we disagree here as well...not that your sentence is wrong just not complete... you forgot the primary focus of the Dom...and to me it is to provide for the needs of the submissive. It is an equal two way street that will not work for long unless those needs and desires are addressed

daddysprop247 -> RE: Obey (9/2/2009 8:27:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub The Dom taking the time to uphold their end of a relationship is building love along with trust and happiness. Demanding by the submissive that they do so is not topping….It is just filling their needs…and it is no less the job of the Dom to please than the submissive...If not what are you doing together. quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero And this is a tautology. The missing point being, however, that a D/s or M/s relationship is built on the s-type's obedience and their willing desire to make obedience their primary focus. Nope we disagree here as well...not that your sentence is wrong just not complete... you forgot the primary focus of the Dom...and to me it is to provide for the needs of the submissive. It is an equal two way street that will not work for long unless those needs and desires are addressed "equal two way street?" huh?? i think if anyone told my Master that providing for my needs should be his primary focus, he would laugh and laugh and laugh [:D]. equally ridiculous to us are the idea that my obedience to his will should ever have anything to do with love, trust or happiness.

Jeptha -> RE: Obey (9/2/2009 8:28:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RavenMuse quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Your job is to find things you can both enjoy or the submissive can at least respect. Might I suggest your focus is in the wrong place.... she need not enjoy what I have told her to do, she is in submission to Me, she enjoys pleasing Me, obedience pleases Me. As for respect, it is ME she respects not whatever activity I set her to doing... I'm right in the middle of the road between these two viewpoints. Obedience pleases me. It's one of the things I look for. But it's not the only thing. I have had subs who were "pleasers", and to me, there's no feedback loop there. The energy just moves in one direction. When I have a sub who is into what she is doing in and of itself to some degree, not only because I'm into it, then I feel like there's more energy, moving in both directions. That's a weird metaphor, but maybe some of you will get what I mean. So, I don't give idle commands that aren't directly relevant to me, and they are calculated to be of some interest to my sub, as well. This is not to say that I don't push a little. I'm not a bad tour guide to some weird little places - but only for those who might have an interest in going there. The bottom line is, if somebody isn't interested in doing something, I'm not interested in using the authority that I have in our relationship to make them do it. That just isn't of any interest to me, it does nothing for me. I get nuthin out of it. Now - that's not to say that I don't want certain things done. But , that , to me, is the task of determining initial compatibility; finding somebody who likes to do those things that you want done. The things that you like, in other words. As Mick Jagger once said, "if you can't rock me, somebody will." e.t.a; In some ways, you know that this just makes sense: you aren't going to make a slave out of someone who doesn't want to be a slave for example. For me it's just that same principle extended. I'm not going to push humiliation onto someone who isn't interested in it, and so on.

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