RE: Obey (Full Version)

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NihilusZero -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 10:45:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

  I find myself less capable of maintaining a staunch declarative position with tasks when I encounter a temperamental attitude towards doing them. Realistically speaking, to say that I don't expect my s-type to necessarily like what she is being told to do is not also a carte blanche to display irreverent behavior while still doing it. 


This line of reasoning would cause me to consider improving my acting skills. Both R. and S. are fully aware of the few things I don’t like because I have told them so.  In our relationships, this goes under the heading of open communication.    I’m not interested in faking how I feel about a task or rule or command.  I can hate the task/rule/command yet find a satisfaction in my obedience despite the fact it isn’t easy for me and also because they expect it anyway. 
 
edited for an errant letter s.     

There is a big difference between the supposed expectations for the s-type to fake their feelings or better their theatrical skills and expecting the s-type to share discontent respectfully and yieldingly  rather than throwing a passive aggressive tantrum.

2 points:

1) You perhaps cannot change whether you like something or not but you sure as heck can control how honorably you deal with such a situation.

2) An s-type with a primary motivation to please (who is not being given a fatal or dangerous or illegal act) being given a chance to do so via a task wouldn't (/shouldn't) have  a mindset where preference would trump their obedience.



kyraofMists -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 10:46:59 AM)

The transfer of authority is one of the core foundations of our relationship. He has authority over all aspects of mine and Alandra's life. This exists because of his consent to exercise that authority over us and our consent to transfer that authority to him. To willfully disobey, meaning I know what I am supposed to do, I have the ability to do it and I refuse to do it, essentially removes my consent to transfer authority to him. Without my consent, the M/s structure no longer exists.

To willfully disobey him, would create a huge breach of trust in our relationship. His promise to us is that he will not intentionally harm us or our relationship; willfully disobeying means that I have intentionally harmed him and our relationship. It is something that just doesn't happen and there would have to be some really extreme circumstances to cause it to happen.

This does not mean that disobedience does not happen from time to time. There are times that I forget to do something. That is not something that happens often with me and it is a good indicator that I am overloaded at the moment. There are times that he gives orders that might contradict each other. If we can't get in touch with him then we have to make the best decision possible and live with the consequences. There are times that things beyond our control prevent us from doing what he wants.

When stuff like that happens, it does create stress. We don't like not doing his will, but he is pretty good at looking at all the variables and realizing that sometimes things just don't work out the way he thinks they should.

Time to go back to work, but that is a brief view of obedience in our house.

Knight's Kyra



leadership527 -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 10:49:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
Leadership, thanks for understanding. for the most part, your position is clear to me as well...carol must always obey you in order for you to consider her to be your slave, otherwise she is your submissive wife or something else, but not property. and that leads to my question for you...in your personal view, does disobedience negate slavery? in other words, if a slave makes the choice to disobey their Master, whatever the reason, are they in some way expressing that they do not wish to truly be a slave/give up complete control?
Yup, you get my position also. Similar in some ways yet different in others to your own as I've found in the past.

The answer to your question is both loaded and not entirely obvious. So disclaimer first... in my opinion only. Now... the answer to your question is a qualified yes. The way I see it, Carol has made a choice to be mine and all that that entails. I would consider direct disobedience (and remember that I do not count in that all the normal human failings.. forgetfullness, mistakes in communication, etc.) clear testimonial that she does not belong to me in her own head. If I do not believe she is my slave within her own head, then no actions she could make would change the truth of the situation.

Tempering that viewpoint greatly though is the fact that what I own is a human. And humans take time to absorb change. So for instance, Carol being monogamous to the bone and me demanding the right to have her pleasure sexually whoever I tell her to. Given how deeply her convictions run on that one, I do not expect to be able to make core changes in her overnight. That particular example is a work in progress (and I'm in no rush since I don't actually have any plans to share her with anyone). In the end, I expect to have that authority, but I fully expect it to take somewhere between a few more weeks and a few more months to process that change. My expectation of her is that she will always follow my lead. But some of the places I wish to lead are going to take longer to get to than others.



agirl -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 10:50:21 AM)

Obedience is not the  *cornerstone* of my M/s relationship. Being owned is.

I am not always obedient, I never WILL always be obedient. I don't have a great deal of angst over it and neither does he. I accept that if I'm disobedient there will be repercussions. I have never questioned his *right* or *authority* to respond to any disobedience in whatever way he might. There's no *falling out* over it, there's no bad feelings or resentment either. It's a cause and effect situation.

I've never been in any doubt about what and how I should obey as he doesn't tend to leave his i's undotted or his t's uncrossed. If I disobey, it's because I want to and I'm not really in the habit of trying to dress it up as anything else. I would add that it's not something (disobeying) I make a habit of, but it does happen. I can't think of a single occasion where I *couldn't* obey ....I only have ones where I *wouldn't* or *didn't want to*.

Snipped from LadyPact's post...

Let's take something easy that I might command.  Just off of the top of My head, let's say that I want steak for dinner one night.  In the beginning of a dynamic, of course, I expect the sub to ask how I want it cooked and how I want it served.  As time goes on, these are the little details that he will know. ...

I can't for the life of me see what this has to do with obedience...it's to do with *making the best effort to do something nice and pleasing*. The only way to disobey in that circumstance is to delberately fuck it up. You like your steak rare , it's not rare .....is that disobedience, lack of interest, a mistake or lack of skill? Motivation would be the deciding factor, surely? I've rarely done anything FOR M that I couldn't give a shit about, but that would apply to anyone that I care about, right down to making a cup of tea for one of the children.

I'm owned no matter what I feel, think or do, until I no longer choose to be. I *chose* him to be in authority over me for my OWN reasons and he accepted owning me for HIS own reasons. I accept what comes from that and so does he.

In many ways I understand Jeff's application of *mine or not mine* with regards to obeying ..... He will still have a *couple* relationship with his wife  no matter whether it's *D/s M/s* or *Husband and Wife without D/s*. I don't have that option.

It seems to me that the most important thing boils down to WHY you are in a D/s relationship to begin with and WHY you chose the person in authority over you.

For me , the overall concept of obedience is that it makes *sense* (define that how you will) in OUR relationship, to obey him....not that it makes him *happy* or that it makes ME happy, in the short term.

agirl




































NihilusZero -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 11:02:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

I am not always obedient, I never WILL always be obedient.

So, if you can do X task and choose not to, doing so in a framework where you are essentially weighing the scales in your head for your own benefit and decide you'd rather just take the consequences, then I'm a bit confused as to where the authority is.



NihilusZero -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 11:08:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

For me , the overall concept of obedience is that it makes *sense* (define that how you will)

That bit in parentheses is quite enlightening to the point. Because, without the s-type having a mindset of surrender, trust and obedience to the decision-making skills of the D-type, there will just be competing views of what "makes sense" every time the D-type demands/asks something when the s-type feels free to interject with whether xhe thinks it's sensible or not.



LadyPact -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 11:18:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Obey. . . yes.

What if you ask for something that is harmful or damaging?
Is temp damage ok?
Is perma damage ok?

If we get all technical about it, a nice rough paddling, when applied frequently, causes perma damage to the nerve bundles. So will criss crossing your whip strokes. Some of the pain reduction is truly from a physiological rising pain threshold but at some point, “leather ass” sets in and that is from the physical damage of deadening nerves.

My point is that when it comes to spanking some ass and doing perma damage, that is usually OK because both parties want it. But what if the authority figure wants a degree of damage the subordinate does not want?

I promise to tell you my answer later. In the meantime, what is your answer?


Eric, I have to admit, it always tickles Me when someone uses the term leather butt.  Not that I disagree with the existence of the term, or the truth behind it.  I find it to be completely accurate, but it still makes Me laugh.

I tend to think that you and I have the same kinds of tastes when it comes to administering pain.  Now, if we are going to get all technical about it, even a bruise, a welt, or a needle mark could be considered temporary damage.  Those things are absolutely going to happen.  If such minor things are not acceptable, the other person isn't even going to make a good play partner for Me, much less My submissive.

Permanent damage?  Yes, there's a possibility that is going to happen, too.  In this, I'm thinking of such things as branding or cutting, which do leave a permanent mark.  The scars remain, but the wound heals.  I guess we'll have to pick one side of the fence or the other in how we see the term permanent damage.  I see them as permanent yes, but damaging, no.

While I love hurting people, harm is out of the rulebook for Me.  That covers intentional harm such as breaking hard limits, levels of play that someone isn't ready for yet, and so on.  For some things, I can be a very patient woman.  For others, depending on the sub in question, I may never want them.  If My sub is absolutely terrified of needles and it's a phobia that they can not overcome, I may adopt a hard limit of My own with that play for that person.

In short, I could harm someone, but I'm not willing to.  Just because I have authority doesn't mean I have to abuse it.





daddysprop247 -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 11:18:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Yup, you get my position also. Similar in some ways yet different in others to your own as I've found in the past.

The answer to your question is both loaded and not entirely obvious. So disclaimer first... in my opinion only. Now... the answer to your question is a qualified yes. The way I see it, Carol has made a choice to be mine and all that that entails. I would consider direct disobedience (and remember that I do not count in that all the normal human failings.. forgetfullness, mistakes in communication, etc.) clear testimonial that she does not belong to me in her own head. If I do not believe she is my slave within her own head, then no actions she could make would change the truth of the situation.

Tempering that viewpoint greatly though is the fact that what I own is a human. And humans take time to absorb change. So for instance, Carol being monogamous to the bone and me demanding the right to have her pleasure sexually whoever I tell her to. Given how deeply her convictions run on that one, I do not expect to be able to make core changes in her overnight. That particular example is a work in progress (and I'm in no rush since I don't actually have any plans to share her with anyone). In the end, I expect to have that authority, but I fully expect it to take somewhere between a few more weeks and a few more months to process that change. My expectation of her is that she will always follow my lead. But some of the places I wish to lead are going to take longer to get to than others.



Leadership, thank you much for this explanation, i think i really do "get it" now. :)

agirl states that "Obedience is not the  *cornerstone* of my M/s relationship. Being owned is." Daddy and i share that view. i am a slave not because i am obedient, but because my life belongs to him and everything in it structured and controlled by him. i am obedient because it pleases him for me to be so, because it is my natural inclination to be so, and because it makes life much more pleasant to be so. i have no desire to disobey ever, or to push him ever, or "act out" in any way at all ever.

Leadership, you said that humans need time to absorb change. and i would agree with that, however i would add this has nothing to do with obedience imho. unlike your relationship with your carol, my relationship with Daddy began as slave. literally, one day i was free and single, tied to no one, and the next i was someone's property. mentally, emotionally...that took a lot of adjustment, a lot of growing pains, etc. but every step of the way i was expected to be 100% obedient and 100% dedicated. there was no room for questioning or hesitation, in fact that was perhaps the first lesson he instilled: you are to obey, without question or hesitation. this meant that no matter how shocking, difficult, terrifying i found a particular command, i had to instantly jump to obey and obey well. many many times in the beginning, i was acting without the desire or what many would consider to be the "proper" emotions behind it. i was not thinking, "oh it makes me so happy to please him, life is fairies and pixie dust"...lol...rather i would be thinking, "omg, what is this man subjecting me to? why does he want this? is THIS my life now, forever and always?"....and these thoughts were all perfectly human and normal, and acceptable to him. what mattered is that my body would always move to obey his will, and that my mind absorbed each and every lesson he was teaching. i may be screaming on the inside...but on the outside i had better be calm and focused and of course, obedient.





LadyPact -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 11:21:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

fast reply...

i have been taught to protect the property (myself especially) first even if that means disobedience to the particular order and even if that means protecting myself from the D-type(s)... it is obedience to the first rule...paradoxically my disobedience usually lies in not taking care of myself...usually trying to do too much resulting in seizures and/or fibromyalgia pain or not letting the D-type know of a psychological problem that causes a break down...

on the other hand, when faced with my disobedience (read: when caught because i tell on myself) i am so overwhelmed with regret and shame that i do not need to be punished by someone else; i do a much worse job than anyone else could...so in an effort not to go down that road again because i don't need to feel the extreme highs and lows anymore like the out of control bipolar i was, i try to obey at all times, even when that means resting or going to meetings when there are chores to be done and letting myself be transparent...

My current boy actually has the same first rule.  If it's an area where he is relying on that, I don't consider the secondary command as disobedience.



NihilusZero -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 11:26:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

i may be screaming on the inside...but on the outside i had better be calm and focused and of course, obedient.

This speaks directly to what I'm getting at with reference to temperament (at least as far as my expectations go).

I do always leave room for the s-type to approach with concerns, and normally this should be the potential sharing of information that I may need (and not be aware of) in order to adequately make the choices I think are best.

When I say that there is no room for discussion or argument over the order, it's not saying there is no room for the sharing of emotional thoughts about it...but that sharing absolutely shouldn't come paired with the expectation that sharing that discomfort will magically tip the scales so that I will/must change my mind on the task.

If the s-type is treating the freedom to share feelings on orders/tasks as a bargaining chip to get out of what they're being told to do, then I'm not seeing a mindset actually conducive to obedience/ownership/slavery.



LadyPact -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 11:28:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexisubi

i would completely not disobey deliberately. for a couple of reasons, 1, it makes them happy and that really does make me happy i love seeing joy in their eyes cause it always puts a smile on my face that wont go away. 2, i hate punishment cause i cant block out any pain to feel disappointment none of these things are fun 3, is what my dom told me to do going to kill me? no. so just do it, try it, rock it, if  need be cry during it doesnt mean one cant do it.  4, what if there is something asked that i do not agree to the point where it effects my personal beliefs or opinions, i have never complained before i have never asked not to do something before.i would ask for this one time of my master to not make me do this one thing because it goes against my beliefs or whatever it is, most likely they will say yes. also if it effected my personal beliefs, then ill take the punishment proudly  if they say no. 

the chances of a Dom asking a submissive to go against their beliefs are rare, or never asked but in the case they do, i will use my obedience to my advantage if they let me.and if they dont then ill take the punishment and move forward. but this is -only- if it goes against my personal beliefs dreams and ambitions.



A very good post.  This is very much the attitude that works best for Me from My submissive in a D/s dynamic.



agirl -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 11:29:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

I am not always obedient, I never WILL always be obedient.

So, if you can do X task and choose not to, doing so in a framework where you are essentially weighing the scales in your head for your own benefit and decide you'd rather just take the consequences, then I'm a bit confused as to where the authority is.



With whom I'm answerable to.

agirl



LadyPact -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 11:29:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I obey. Period.  If I act and fail, that is not disobedience.  But I obey for two reasons.  First, the thought of displeasing my Master is so horrible to me, that it really is in my best interest to obey.  Second, I recognize His Authority.  To me, that is really the first and last of our M/s relationship.

Who among us when seeing those flashing lights in our rear-view mirror would say to themselves "Gee, it's really not convenient to pull over right now, I have to go to work."  No.  We pull over and right smartly too because of one simple fact, we recognize that the police have the authority.  So in my way of thinking, any s-type who wants to wiggle out of any command, doesn't recognize the authority of his or her D-type.  Without the recognition of authority, there is no D/s M/s relationship.

Thank you for your contribution to the thread.  That's a very insightful way of looking at it.



NihilusZero -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 11:37:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

With whom I'm answerable to.

If that person understands that every task/order is essentially just a request that will possibly be obeyed.

If I'm giving a task to my sub/slave it is because I want the result...I want it to happen; not because I want to have to exact punishment if she feels in an unwilling mood at the moment.

It seems to me the entire authority dynamic is moot if the s-type inevitably gets to play a multiple-choice game with every request based on what their whimsy tells them.



LadyPact -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 11:41:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

You know I agree, but I also think it works both ways.

It is a massive turn off for me if a dominant tells me to do something, discusses it and then wavers and changes their mind when there really is no reason to. If the decision started off being a strong one that then becomes something that can change at the drop of a hat it totally throws me.

I do think likening D/s relationships to child like behaviour is a good analogy at times, that often the sub will search for the boundaries, if they find there aren't any or that they are easy to push then the relationship will be unfulfilling for both the sub will not have the freedom to submit and the dom won't have the power to dominate.

I think what I am saying is that the sub needs to know it is important to obey.

I happen to think it's rather important Myself.

If there is no substantial reason to change My mind, I won't.  I expect honesty from My submissive, not manipulation.  Trying that pattern doesn't tend to work well with Me.



LadyPact -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 11:43:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Obedience is not the primary focus of our relationship. I'm not a servant, I'm much more of a pet.

The primary focus of our relationship is emotional transparency and you can't have that and obedience even when you hate what you are doing without damaging the emotional relationship. Or at least we can't. Even short term resentment will cause problems. Either he knows I'm spending that time disliking him, or I have to become nontransparent.

Since he isn't a sadist, he objects to knowing I dislike him and since the core of the relationship is transparency me occluding it damages the core.

We have found that if I obey when I hate the task, and therefore for however short a period of time hate him, that it isn't good for us.

While I can absolutely respect that type of dynamic, it wouldn't work for Me.



OttersSwim -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 11:46:21 AM)

My Lady and I generally have a "discussion" style in most things.  This is because She wants a life partner and understands that I can add value to decision making.  We will discuss something, both expressing opinions...but I do my best to give her the right of decision and once that decision is made, I try not to question it.

There are other times - like when she holds out the violet wand a foot in front of my crotch, turns it on and tells me to walk forward.  Those times are not for discussion.  I walk forward.  Period. 

Shocking, no?  [;)]



daddysprop247 -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 12:24:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

i may be screaming on the inside...but on the outside i had better be calm and focused and of course, obedient.

This speaks directly to what I'm getting at with reference to temperament (at least as far as my expectations go).

I do always leave room for the s-type to approach with concerns, and normally this should be the potential sharing of information that I may need (and not be aware of) in order to adequately make the choices I think are best.

When I say that there is no room for discussion or argument over the order, it's not saying there is no room for the sharing of emotional thoughts about it...but that sharing absolutely shouldn't come paired with the expectation that sharing that discomfort will magically tip the scales so that I will/must change my mind on the task.

If the s-type is treating the freedom to share feelings on orders/tasks as a bargaining chip to get out of what they're being told to do, then I'm not seeing a mindset actually conducive to obedience/ownership/slavery.



Daddy would view this as a mindset not conducive with submissiveness...and since he only desires submissive property, it would not be an acceptable mindset for any slave or even any partner of his. however one thing observation in both the on and offline "mainstream" D/s and BDSM worlds has taught me...not every Master wants a submissive slave. mostly obedient, yes, but submissive-natured, no. so for those types questioning, "playful" manipulation, bratty behavior, etc...could be perfectly acceptable.

i also wanted to comment on what you stated about any slave of yours having room to share concerns and emotional issues with any command or expectation you put forth. this is something i personally feel is important in long-term M/s dynamics, especially when there is mutual love involved. for the health of the relationship, the slave does need the freedom to express their true thoughts/feelings/worries at some point, in a respectful and appropriate manner of course. my Master gives me such freedom, but not at the moment an order is given or a time when i am expected to serve. in the moment i need to buck up and simply obey. however at some later time when his ear is open to me, i am to share whatever feelings or concerns i may have about anything...and i am comforted by knowing that this sharing only helps him to know and understand me better, and has no bearing on whether or not he will have his will. in other words, it gives me no power, and i rather like that. [:)]





NihilusZero -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 12:46:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

Daddy would view this as a mindset not conducive with submissiveness...and since he only desires submissive property, it would not be an acceptable mindset for any slave or even any partner of his. however one thing observation in both the on and offline "mainstream" D/s and BDSM worlds has taught me...not every Master wants a submissive slave. mostly obedient, yes, but submissive-natured, no. so for those types questioning, "playful" manipulation, bratty behavior, etc...could be perfectly acceptable.

i also wanted to comment on what you stated about any slave of yours having room to share concerns and emotional issues with any command or expectation you put forth. this is something i personally feel is important in long-term M/s dynamics, especially when there is mutual love involved. for the health of the relationship, the slave does need the freedom to express their true thoughts/feelings/worries at some point, in a respectful and appropriate manner of course. my Master gives me such freedom, but not at the moment an order is given or a time when i am expected to serve. in the moment i need to buck up and simply obey. however at some later time when his ear is open to me, i am to share whatever feelings or concerns i may have about anything...and i am comforted by knowing that this sharing only helps him to know and understand me better, and has no bearing on whether or not he will have his will. in other words, it gives me no power, and i rather like that. [:)]

30 points. [:)]



MasterFireMaam -> RE: Obey (9/1/2009 12:58:20 PM)

I feel that obedience is THE point of an Ms relationship. I recently had to enforce my "my way or the highway" rule. It had never been challenged before...and given what I thought the depth of the relationship was, I was totally surprised by the challenge and saddened by the ending of the relationship.

I do not feel that a slave is to be obedient in order to be pleasing. My pleasure is my responsibility...thus, if I am not pleased and the slave has obeyed my order, I've not made the order clear. For a slave to care about pleasing me means that, to me, they have an egoic attachment to the outcome. This can lead to situations where the slave is trying to control and manipulate my pleasure in order to "make me feel" something. Obedience for the sake of obedience, because the slave feels that obedience is their calling, is my goal and expectation.

It works the same way with my surrender to my higher power. I don't obey in order to make the power happy, because then I often attempt to manipulate the power into thinking what I want is what the power wants. That doesn't work. I feel I must do as the power says regardless of my attachment to the outcome and I feel this because I have deep conviction that the power has my best and highest good in mind and that the power knows way more than I do about the big picture.

Because I surrender to that power and because I get "hits" about the relationship from that power, I am the embodiment of that power in the Ms relationship. This isn't the same as saying I'm "god"...it is saying that I'm the leader in a spiritual way. Thus, "Because I said so," is a valid reason from me to the slave and from my higher power to me. Neither one of us need a reason in order to obey.

So, the way obedience manifests in my relationship(s) is as blind obedience. slaves should not come to me for a collar if they do not have some kind of certainty that I have their best interests at heart and that I expect them to surrender to a "my way or the highway" relationship. they should understand how this works, ultimately and be concerned only with following the orders given. The disclaimer here is that taking time to observe and built trust is often important. The disclaimer to the disclaimed is; sometimes, you just "know" and spirit has no time line.

Having to enforce my rule has given me much insight into myself and my relationships. The household manual that I wrote an entire book on is, for the most part, obsolete for my now. The interesting part in the development is that, AT THE SAME TIME that anne and I were ending our relationship, slave elliot came into the picture, fully surrendering to blind obedience. he was collared in about a month (the timing of that is about my surrender) which also goes against everything I'd felt and encouraged before and where the disclaimer to the disclaimer has come from.

Master Fire




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