The War in Iraq Costs...

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Chaingang -> The War in Iraq Costs... (2/25/2006 7:07:40 PM)
The War in Iraq Costs: http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182 How the US govt. spends your taxes: http://nationalpriorities.org/auxiliary/interactivetaxchart/taxchart.html Cool site in general: http://nationalpriorities.org/

JohnWarren -> RE: The War in Iraq Costs... (2/26/2006 6:59:32 AM)
What really really scares me is we aren't paying those costs. They are being paid for with loans and the US is going deeply in debt. Now I have no children and will probably be dead before the worst of this comes back to haunt the US, but it still bothers me deeply because I do care about this country. I do have to worry about the honor of those who spend us into debt while decrying those who admit that taxes will have to be raised in order to pay that debt.

Chaingang -> RE: The War in Iraq Costs... (2/26/2006 9:44:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JohnWarren What really really scares me is we aren't paying those costs. They are being paid for with loans and the US is going deeply in debt. Hmmm...partisan politics again, John? Here's how I see it... The Republican party has "traditionally" been the party of individual rights, state's rights, less taxation, small government, and a strong defense. Those are the characteristics that have made the GOP a force to contend with all these years. I personally find many of those ideals praiseworthy, if they were true. I quoted the word "traditionally" because there is often quite a bit of sleight of hand in terms of what the parties say about themselves and what actually proves out to be true. [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d1/IAO-logo.png[/img] The Patriot Act has given the lie to the GOP's protection of any individual's rights. We now have secret government, the subornation of torture, the unconstitutional imprisonment of Americans as "enemy combatants", no fly lists, and the NSA scouring the Internet with technology that had been part of the Total Information awareness program. Americans are more surveillanced now than at any time in our history. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Awareness_Office Speaking of individual rights, how can any right be more fundamental than control over one's own body? Women's reproductive rights have absolutely been put on the auction block. I agree that all parents should have rights where reproduction is concerned, I just fail to see why the government should have any say in the matter. But that's another thread already... Our Republican president has told the states to carry more of the load as he makes empty promises about "no child left behind" while simultaneously not only providing no funding but actually making the tax cuts and tax shifts that make his promises impossible. His tax shifts will make life very hard for the poor, the elderly, students, and those on medicare while granting unprecedented tax breaks for the wealthy. Is this what George's favorite philosopher Jesus would do? See: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/9138154/the_deficit_lie/ As far as taxes go, John is perfectly correct that the GOP is passing the buck to the future. So precisely what distinguishes the GOP from the Democrats in this regard is basically nothing except that it usually seems to me that Democrats do slightly wiser things with their tax programs. See: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_05/006282.php Small government talk is just that - all talk. You can't add a secret government to the mix and talk about less government with a straight face. I guess the GOP should thank their lucky stars that the man doing most of the talking is a dry drunk and would generally seem to barely know what he is saying most of the time. "See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda." - George W. Bush, N.Y., May 24, 2005 I don't have a problem with a strong defense, not at all. I have a problem with a schizoid foreign policy that makes us the aggressors the whole world over. Pipe lines in Afghanistan, our nose in Iran, naked aggression in Iraq, our ancient shame Viet Nam, etc. We are the good guys? How so? Aggression displayed the world over will eventually come home to roost. You can't go into everyone else's houses, kick their asses, and not expect retaliation. That's idiot diplomacy at work for you. One of the things that has me worried is part of what I call "cultural warfare." There seems to be a certain faction that wants to take over the U.S. for deeply unamerican reasons. Their members are often people with white supremacist ties and they most often find a home in the GOP (forgive me, but I often think of the GOP as a haven for thinly concealed racism - I think it just goes to their history). These literally crazed Christians would seem to want to throw away the Constitution in favor of something overtly sinister - all in the name of God. Offhand, I'd have to say all fundamentalist movements suck shit - Christian, Muslim, or Jewish - all of the Mosaic faiths taken to an extreme are quite harmful to society and to the world. Funny, how all of these followers of Moses can't seem to get along. Check it out: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/9178374/gods_senator So yeah, at the end of the day I tend to vote Democrat because of women's issues and because I actually believe the economy is often better served by the Dems. I don't love 'em, I just think they are far less evil. With the GOP it's really just a pack of lies, cronyism, and sucking corporate cock (Koch Industries, Haliburton, Walmart, etc). Too bad someone doesn't actually want to pursue the platform actually claimed by the GOP - that might be interesting to see in effect someday. I've been waiting over 40 years myself already...

onceburned -> RE: The War in Iraq Costs... (2/26/2006 5:48:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JohnWarren What really really scares me is we aren't paying those costs. They are being paid for with loans and the US is going deeply in debt. Yes, but we are borrowing from our close allies in China so its okay. Heck, the U.S. government only owes 2 Trillion dollars to foreign nations. Its not like they would ever get mad at us, sell off their bonds, driving down the value of the dollar and sending our economy into a recession. Interest on the national debt is only 10% of the federal budget. We spend more money on the Defense Department.

mnottertail -> RE: The War in Iraq Costs... (2/26/2006 6:06:29 PM)
Two things-- First of all, it is written; no man sits down to build a house unless he has considered its cost, else; when his foundation is built and he finds that he cannot finish the structure, he becomes the laughingstock of his community..................... (I ain't even gonna quote the original source) Secondly, they are selling the shit, in my lifetime I could walk into McDonalds with a buck and get change........you fuckers know the commercial....... Now, what you used to go out and spend on pussy, you spend on McD's Here is how it is really gonna work; for many years hence; as heretofore; countries will hold our debt......what are their choices, demand payment? After some time, We will sell them parts of new york, like we did the japanese when the debt became unbearable in the Reagan years--yikes, seaports........... Oh, they can make it miserable........but the collection is gonna be like how, what you got to give them? Railroads? Infrastructure? Iron? Fuck that, if Andrew Carnege was alive today, what with Japanese buying junk iron from america, coking coal from ceylon, coal from south africa and yadda yadda yadda....taking it to the ocean on ships and selling it back to us cheaper than we can produce it (and don't hand me no asswipe about the labor is cheaper) and sell it to us cheaper than we can produce it he would say this is a good place to start an Iron Industry.............. Simple fact is, if we still have mercantile interest, we will defend it, take it like pussy........................... So, having somewhat of an interest in war, when we tell them to lick there ass and fuck their money.........what will occur? Whatever, Ron

FangsNfeet -> RE: The War in Iraq Costs... (2/26/2006 11:51:43 PM)
Who cares? It's only money. What's the real definition of money? People and businesses are getting paid. People who get paid or taxed. They also end up buying goods that are also taxed. In the end, the money just goes back into a continuous circle. The only true cost we aren't getting back is the blood. However, we can all hope this investment will lead to a more safe and free world.

Chaingang -> RE: The War in Iraq Costs... (2/27/2006 9:33:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet People and businesses are getting paid. People who get paid or taxed. They also end up buying goods that are also taxed. In the end, the money just goes back into a continuous circle. Yeah, interestingly they have found ways around your "trickle down" theory of economics: http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/taxhavens2.html And this to say nothing of actual tax incentives and the backroom deals made between large corporations and the Federal government. Corporate pork is a huge part of what's wrong with our current picture. quote: ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet However, we can all hope this investment will lead to a more safe and free world. Shall I take it you favor the "idiot diplomacy" I mentioned above? Seriously, have you ever gone around and riled everyone up and told them they better act as demanded or face reprisals? Even if you are powerful enough to carry our your threats others will find a way to undermine you and make you pay. Look at Israel. The state of Israel keeps the Palestinians in near poverty and occasionally they even squabble over Palestinian territories by trying to expand the Israeli settlement frontiers. Do you suppose that is making the Palestinians into good friends for them? Not exactly, but then the Palestinians are largely unable to stand against even conventional war weapons like a trained military and tanks and bullets and guns - so the Israelis are kicking their ass. All well and good in "idiot diplomacy" land. Funny thing is: when you push people to the brink like that their own lives not only become unimportant and an ongoing pain in the ass to them, but some of them are angry enough to retaliate in their own manner by strapping on homemade bombs and running into your public spaces. Buses, discos, marketplaces, anywhere there are a lot of people will do. BOOM! That's how a suicide bomber thinks: they're going to pick the time and place of their death and take out some of their asshole oppressors at the same time. That's what Americans never understand: the person for whom the insurgent cause is worth their own death. When you intend to die you can do almost anything.

Mercnbeth -> RE: The War in Iraq Costs... (2/27/2006 10:36:04 AM)
quote: And this to say nothing of actual tax incentives and the backroom deals made between large corporations and the Federal government. Corporate pork is a huge part of what's wrong with our current picture. "Tax incentives" and "backroom deal"; if the government itself was considered in that statement I'd agree. The biggest tax incentives and deals are "in-house". There are entire departments within government who exist only to take up space. The most obvious is the "Department of Education". Created in 1980, has the value of a US public education improved or gotten worse? Check any survey of worldwide public education for a reference. Cost $71.5 Billion in tax dollars - 4500 bureaucrats. Need someone to tell you that Americans are fat? Go to the Food & Nutrition services division of the Department of Agriculture. Established in 1969 now a $50 Billion budgetary black hole. If the lived within their original charter of providing food stamps for the poor it could be justified. But their most recent expenditures including publishing a food pyramid for pre-schoolers, and advertising "National School Breakfast Week". They did buy 7.5 Million Pounds of Pineapple Juice, $10 Million for Pink Salmon, 20 million Pounds of Sweet Potatoes. Must have been some kind of party. For one stop shopping for examples of backroom deals, here is a link of all of them: http://www.firstgov.gov/Agencies/Federal/All_Agencies/index.shtml ALL are reverse tax incentives. When backroom deals and tax incentives are handed out, it's usually from one of these government agencies. Why? Because it gives them a reason to exist. Best way to eliminate the deals, eliminate the people handing them out. It's not the Democrats or the Republicans - it's the bureaucrats. Problem is, unless there is a hurricane in New Orleans, most never find out that someone in power, within one or a couple of these bureaucracies, approved building a $100 Million bridge to nowhere in Alaska. Want to know the #1 reason why the US will never have a "flat tax"? It's not the consideration of unfair to the poor, or too good for the rich. It's because it's too simple. What would happen to the $10.6 Billion appropriated by the IRS and the 115,000 full time employees? What about the economy of the US Tax system? What happens to the 328,000 CPA's? The corresponding number of tax lawyers? Do you think either of those well funding PAC's would allow any simplicity to a tax code which fuels their industry? Ironically the criticism of corporate welfare is parallel to the the criticism of individual welfare. Both are smokescreens meant to polarize and distract the masses from the real source of their wasted tax dollars. But I doubt many want to take the time to learn the truth of how their money is spent. They'd much rather criticize a party or a person when in reality, we could all be living tax free if ALL social engineering welfare was eliminated. If Henry Ford invented the assembly line today eliminating the horse buggy business the federal government would set up a bureaucracy to prop it up. Doubt it? Consider that one of the largest subsidies given in last year's budget was to the tobacco growers. Think that conflicts with the Millions of tax dollars spent for stop smoking programs? quote: The state of Israel keeps the Palestinians in near poverty and occasionally they even squabble over Palestinian territories by trying to expand the Israeli settlement frontiers. Yasser Arafat died a billionaire. His widow and family reside on the west bank in Paris. Who was more responsible for the "Palestinians" existing in poverty, him or the Israeli government who, with the US, was the predominant source of Arafat's wealth? The Palestinians are kept in poverty because they are kept in ignorance by their "leaders". quote: when you push people to the brink like that their own lives not only become unimportant and an ongoing pain in the ass to them, but some of them are angry enough to retaliate in their own manner by strapping on homemade bombs and running into your public spaces. They haven't been "pushed to the brink" they have been led there.

Chaingang -> RE: The War in Iraq Costs... (2/27/2006 11:22:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Ironically the criticism of corporate welfare is parallel to the the criticism of individual welfare. Both are smokescreens meant to polarize and distract the masses from the real source of their wasted tax dollars. But I doubt many want to take the time to learn the truth of how their money is spent. They'd much rather criticize a party or a person when in reality, we could all be living tax free if ALL social engineering welfare was eliminated. If Henry Ford invented the assembly line today eliminating the horse buggy business the federal government would set up a bureaucracy to prop it up. Doubt it? Consider that one of the largest subsidies given in last year's budget was to the tobacco growers. Think that conflicts with the Millions of tax dollars spent for stop smoking programs? This part seems as loaded as any opinion I've seen. I don't think it would ever be zero taxes, but it could be far less. That said, war is still very expensive. In many, many ways... I get the idea that you would like to shift focus away from how corporations cheat on their taxes. Maybe it is not the sole cause of our economic troubles, but is it wrong to point this fact out anyway? The main thrust of the thread is the cost of war in Iraq. Excuse me if I find that price too high to pay whatever the criteria used to assess the cost. quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Yasser Arafat died a billionaire. His widow and family reside on the west bank in Paris. Who was more responsible for the "Palestinians" existing in poverty, him or the Israeli government who, with the US, was the predominant source of Arafat's wealth? The Palestinians are kept in poverty because they are kept in ignorance by their "leaders". Are you saying the whole conflict is faked or engineered by the leaders of both sides? It doesn't change anything for the soldiers/terrorists on the ground, but I find the idea interesting.

Mercnbeth -> RE: The War in Iraq Costs... (2/27/2006 1:50:29 PM)
Chaingang, I hesitated posting my first comment to the Iraq war thread because I felt my answer hijacked the OP. I rationalized my decision to do so because you interjected the corporate welfare subject as a relevant cause. It was my fault for focusing exclusively on that aspect - I apologize. As you pointed out; "the main thrust of the thread is the cost of war in Iraq." But to answer your questions... War is a distraction. Whether it's the "war on drugs" or the "war on poverty" or the war in Iraq. A laser beam focus of solution doesn't solve the equation. The laser solution usually just moves the target. A shotgun approach kills a broader range of problems. Shoot one at the core of government waste and bureaucracy and you may not need a laser for solving the next war. I have long ago abandoned any broad support of President Bush, his policies, his morality, or his ability to run the country. But I did and do in retrospect support the US entry in Iraq. It's the exit that has me troubled. Applying western standards to Muslim countries is doomed to fail. My reasons for that are documented in the thread I started regarding the US Port deal with UAE. I think we should leave Iraq ASAP and let the indigenous people go on killing themselves as they have for the past 3000 years. Their social and moral beliefs could not be more foreign and alien to us than if we met a group of people originating on one of the moons of Jupiter. The blood being spent now is criminal. But I'm sure you'd find my pragmatic exit strategy reprehensible. I'd put the world on notice that any terrorist act perpetrated on the US will be retaliated by immediate surgical strike against the aggressor and/or his country of origin. I would not eliminate a nuclear option from consideration. Meanwhile, I'd station every returning soldier and more if necessary, on the border of Mexico and Canada and shut off entry to the US by anyone we don't invite. BTW - Economically speaking, citizens of the US CAN have zero taxes under a flat tax program. If corporations doing business in the US were taxes on gross sales as little as 12%, and ALL imports from ALL sources taxes at the same rate, there would be no need of a personal tax. Before you start lobbying for such an economic model consider the ramifications. There are many. For instance virtually all charities would instantly go away. With no tax incentive the majority of individuals and corporations would no longer budget for charity. Finally, is the conflict in the middle east fake? NO there is real ethic based hatred on both sides. Is it engineered? ABSOLUTELY! Engineered on both sides since Israel was formed in 1947. A Jewish state didn't have to be located precisely there number one. But more to the point, ever wonder why there are "Palestinians"? There is a shit load of unused reclaimable land in much better shape than what they are fighting. The Muslim countries of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, and the aforementioned UAE all could support a area the size being fought for by the Palestinians. Why aren't/weren't the Palestinians relocated there with their Muslim "brothers"? It turns out that the "Palestinians" are the outcasts of the Arab/Muslim world. Nobody wants them. Their history is similar to the "Gypsies" of Europe; nomadic tribes of extended families. Palestinians were created or engineered, initially by Egypt, to create and fight the establishment of an Israeli state. The Israeli state was engineered to be where it is by the last remnant of the British Empire who supported it as compromise to FDR's requirement for the US enjoining the war in Europe. FDR required Britain, to abandon their imperialistic goals. As long as there was conflict, Brittan expected to have a customer for it's war machines and it's management influence. What they didn't expect was for the US to take over their role. And that brings us to where we are today. PS - Originally I sent this post direct to Chaingang due to feelings of guilt concerning thread hijacking. With his permission it's here without the personal references including in the email version. PPS - Within his personal reply, Chaingang brings up the point that this post indicates that in hindsight I feel the US invasion of Iraq was a mistake and I should admit it. I don't think that's the case. Being there now is a mistake as currently deployed. Going in and taking out Saddam was not a mistake. Do I contradict myself or make use of semantics? If found guilty I won't argue. But when Chaingang compared my vacillation to Kerry's I had to let him know that I will not stand for further insult! [;)]

Chaingang -> RE: The War in Iraq Costs... (2/27/2006 4:40:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Shoot one at the core of government waste and bureaucracy and you may not need a laser for solving the next war. So you wanna talk about campaign finance reform then? quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth BTW - Economically speaking, citizens of the US CAN have zero taxes under a flat tax program. If corporations doing business in the US were taxes on gross sales as little as 12%, and ALL imports from ALL sources taxes at the same rate, there would be no need of a personal tax. I like it!!! I doubt it would ever pass. quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Is it engineered? ABSOLUTELY! Yeah, okay - I see now what you were saying in light of the brief history you recount (which I knew and generally agree with your telling of it). I just thought you meant something more sinister there. It's an almost perfect fit for the never-ending war imagined by George Orwell. And both sides can play. Those damned Eurasians!!! quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Going in and taking out Saddam was not a mistake. Maybe. This is very like the Noriega and Bin Laden scenarios to me: we create these guys in many ways. We find them useful for a time, support their causes, give them money, misc support, and weapons. And then we claim they are monster when we want them out of power. ... On March 16, 1988, the Kurdish town of Halabjah was attacked with a mix of mustard gas and nerve agents, killing 5,000 civilians, and maiming, disfiguring, or seriously debilitating 10,000 more . The United States maintains that Saddam ordered the attack to terrorize the Kurdish population in northern Iraq, but Saddam's regime claimed at the time that Iran was responsible for the attack, a claim that former CIA analyst Stephen C. Pelletiere says is supported by a U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency classified report. Former senior DIA officers have said that the U.S. intelligence community was "desperate to make sure that Iraq did not lose" that the U.S. aided Iraq in the war despite knowledge about Saddam's use of chemical weapons. According to former DIA officer W. Patrick Lang, "The use of gas on the battlefield by the Iraqis was not a matter of deep strategic concern." He adds that his agency "would have never accepted the use of chemical weapons against civilians, but the use against military objectives was seen as inevitable in the Iraqi struggle for survival." Another officer who was involved noted that the Pentagon "wasn't so horrified by Iraq's use of gas. It was just another way of killing people — whether with a bullet or phosgene, it didn't make any difference." The above statement attributed to an anonymous member of the intelligence community was made in reference to the Iran-Iraq war, not the attack on Kurdish civilians. and also: As Iraq-Kuwait relations rapidly deteriorated, Saddam was receiving conflicting information about how the U.S. would respond to the prospects of an invasion. For one, Washington had been taking measures to cultivate a constructive relationship with Iraq for roughly a decade. The Reagan administration gave Saddam roughly $40 billion in aid in the 1980s to fight Iran, nearly all of it on credit. The U.S. also sent billions of dollars to Saddam to keep him from forming a strong alliance with the Soviets. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein ... [img]http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/handshake300.jpg[/img] Shaking Hands: Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, in Baghdad on December 20, 1983. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/ quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth But when Chaingang compared my vacillation to Kerry's I had to let him know that I will not stand for further insult! Hey, I was kind - at least I didn't say that you likewise look like Herman Munster... [img]http://www.photogslounge.net/graphics7/kerry_herman_munster.jpg[/img]

michaelGA -> RE: The War in Iraq Costs... (2/27/2006 4:50:38 PM)
here's something interesting that i got in my email tonight. i do not know if the "facts" are true or not...but here it is anyway: Read all of this one, it is interesting!! Read down to the very bottom highlighted in green , you don't want to miss this! VERY INTERESTING - 1. The garden of Eden was in Iraq . 2. Mesopotamia, which is now Iraq , was the cradle of civilization! 3. Noah built the ark in Iraq . 4. The Tower of Babel was in Iraq . 5. Abraham was from Ur, which is in Southern Iraq ! 6. Isaac's wife Rebekah is from Nahor, which is in Iraq ! 7. Jacob met Rachel in Iraq . 8. Jonah preached in Nineveh - which is in Iraq . 9. Assyria, which is in Iraq, conquered the ten tribes of Israel . 10. Amos cried out in Iraq ! 11. Babylon, which is in Iraq, destroyed Jerusalem . 12. Daniel was in the lion's den in Iraq ! 13. The three Hebrew children were in the fire in Iraq (Jesus had been in Iraq also as the fourth person in the fiery furnace!) 14. Belshazzar, the King of Babylon saw the "writing on the wall" in Iraq . 15. Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, carried the Jews captive into Iraq . 16. Ezekiel preached in Iraq . 17. The wise men were from Iraq . 18. Peter preached in Iraq . 19. The "Empire of Man" described in Revelation is called Babylon , which was a city in Iraq ! And you have probably seen this one. Israel is the nation most often mentioned in the Bible. But do you know which nation is second? It is Iraq ! However, that is not the name that is used in the Bible. The names used in the Bible are Babylon , Land of Shinar , and Mesopotamia . The word Mesopotamia means between the two rivers, more exactly between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers . The name Iraq , means country with deep roots. Indeed Iraq is a country with deep roots and is a very significant country in the Bible. No other nation, except Israel , has more history and prophecy associated it than Iraq . And also... This is something to think about! Since America is typically represented by an eagle. Saddam should have read up on his Muslim passages... The following verse is from the Koran, (the Islamic Bible) Koran ( 9:11 ) - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; and there was peace. (Note the verse number!) Hmmmmmmm?! God Bless you all Amen !

Mercnbeth -> RE: The War in Iraq Costs... (2/27/2006 5:10:42 PM)
quote: Shaking Hands: Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, in Baghdad on December 20, 1983. One of the greatest mass murderer in the history of the world, not only shook hands with a presidential envoy, but had quite a few dinners and chats with a president, as well as the Prime Minister of Great Britain. If I had the ability, I'd attach a picture of Joseph Stalin hanging out with Churchill and Roosevelt carving up the post WWII world at Malta. I agree that most "wars" are started in the press. Even the social ones. William Randolph Hurst may have invented yellow journalism but it didn't die when he did. The press, internet, and all media are used by all sides to generate "buzz". Noriega, and bin Laden are just two examples of many. What do you think the British press was like concerning Hitler prior to WWII? Neville Chamberlain was cheered and praised in the press for avoiding war by simply surrendering eastern Europe to the short crazy German guy. quote: So you wanna talk about campaign finance reform then? Talk about it! I'd love to be able to DO SOMETHING about it. The last campaign reform act essentially put high and mid-level public office out of the financial reach of most Americans. Do people really believe that those who spend Millions in personal wealth for a job with a base pay of $165,200 per year are doing so for purely altruistic reasons? At least good old Randall 'Duke' Cunningham (Republican Congressman - CA) was honest in his corruption. He had a "menu" for services. For "only" $140,000 and a luxury yacht you were assured to get a $16 Million Defense Department contract. Each addition $ 1 Million in contract value required an additional $50,000. Bu if the contract went about $10 Million you were eligible for a discount of $25,000 per million. This member of the House Appropriations Committee (1998-2005) actually had a "bribery menu" on one of his congressional note cards. Link to full story: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=1667009&page=1) Anyone believe he is unique? The rational? He needed the money to enable him to campaign to serve his constituency. Maybe, as referenced in Independence Day, the $5,000 toilet is caused by funding Area 54; but more likely it is caused by adding the multi-layer kick backs going to our elected officials. Amway got it's model from US politics. And you can justify spending $5 for a $2 box of laundry soap, if you can convince someone else below you in the pyramid to buy it from you for $5.50. Like trying to be "for" the UAE ports deal I tried to be "for" Kerry. He convinced me not to. If Herman was on the ballot he would have been a better alternative.

JohnWarren -> RE: The War in Iraq Costs... (2/27/2006 5:17:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: michaelGA here's something interesting that i got in my email tonight. i do not know if the "facts" are true or not...but here it is anyway: Takes about five minutes to check most of these facts, but you'd rather just bullshit. For example quote: The following verse is from the Koran, (the Islamic Bible) Koran ( 9:11 ) - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; and there was peace. The eleventh verse of of the ninth surah reads: But, if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in faith; do We explain the signs in detail, for those who understand.

michaelGA -> RE: The War in Iraq Costs... (2/27/2006 5:26:26 PM)
as i said from the start, this was sent to me in email...i am merely passing it on...i did not write it, i just thought it was oddly interesting.

JohnWarren -> RE: The War in Iraq Costs... (2/27/2006 5:48:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: michaelGA as i said from the start, this was sent to me in email...i am merely passing it on...i did not write it, i just thought it was oddly interesting. Yup, passing on bullshit without even attempting to find out if it was credible. I had you on ignore, but given the topic heading, I thought you might have something I should look at. I should have known better. Next time try to be a little higher on the evolutionary scale than a parrot.

Termyn8or -> RE: The War in Iraq Costs... (2/27/2006 6:02:04 PM)
So yeah, at the end of the day I tend to vote Democrat because of women's issues and because I actually believe the economy is often better served by the Dems. I don't love 'em, I just think they are far less evil. With the GOP it's really just a pack of lies, cronyism, and sucking corporate cock (Koch Industries, Haliburton, Walmart, etc). Too bad someone doesn't actually want to pursue the platform actually claimed by the GOP - that might be interesting to see in effect someday. I've been waiting over 40 years myself already... ________________________ In the American Free Press a reader wrote in that he was voting democratic because he is a true republican. Normally I'm a big fan of ironies in truth, but I am not so found of this one. Speaking of voting, if the voter turnout in another country was as poor as it is here, the validity of the election might be questioned. At least it would be pointed out that neither candidate had alot of support. More later, this is a GREAT thread, but I have company now. In the well put imitation by Arnold, I'll be baack. Termyn8or

michaelGA -> RE: The War in Iraq Costs... (2/27/2006 6:07:53 PM)
well, excuse the hell out of me. i try to contribute something to a thread and meet up with hostility, maybe i should just drop dead and make YOU happy. for crying out loud. jeeze.

stef -> RE: The War in Iraq Costs... (2/27/2006 8:39:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JohnWarren Next time try to be a little higher on the evolutionary scale than a parrot. If I were a parrot, I would be offended by this characterization. ~stef

JohnWarren -> RE: The War in Iraq Costs... (2/27/2006 8:46:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stef quote: ORIGINAL: JohnWarren Next time try to be a little higher on the evolutionary scale than a parrot. If I were a parrot, I would be offended by this characterization. ~stef [laugh] I can see that. Actually, I'm a little embarrassed at flying off the handle but there is so much inaccurate information and downright lies flying around that the idea that someone would propagate that kind of shit just burns me up. It isn't made any better that part of it was a lie featuring someone else's holy book. I'm not a religious person but it seems so damned insensitive.

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