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RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/3/2009 6:56:14 PM

SpinnerofTales

Posts: 1586
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quote:

I am so glad we are home schooling this year. If he had been attending a public school we would of simply kept him home.

Yes, Bush spoke to school children, and then-House Majority Leader Dick Gephardt (D-Missouri) said, “The Department of Education should not be producing paid political advertising for the President.”
ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

So what are you teaching your children in that case, Being? "If you don't agree with someone, don't bother to listen to them?" Or how about "If the president isn't of my party, he is to be treated as the enemy?" Those seem like poor lessons.

And by the way, I thought Dick Gehpart was talking out of his ass when he said that too.

Of course, the idea of hearing what Obama has to say before saying how awful it is would be wasting time, right? Let's have this conversation on Wednesday.

(in reply to BeingChewsie)

Post #: 41

RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/3/2009 7:00:03 PM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Let's have this conversation on Wednesday.

Nope, Wednesday is no good, that's the evening President Obama will be giving a primetime address before a joint session of Congress on health care reform. After that, we'll probably be talking about his plunging poll numbers. Do you think he'll do a speech, or a primetime press conference to tell us why we should approve of him more?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)

Post #: 42

RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/3/2009 7:02:03 PM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

Nope, Wednesday is no good, that's the evening President Obama will be giving a primetime address before a joint session of Congress on health care reform. After that, we'll probably be talking about his plunging poll numbers. Do you think he'll do a speech, or a primetime press conference to tell us why she should approve of him more?
ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

How about Tuesday night, then? I have to apologize, I can't tell whether I approve of what he said until he's said it. I'm funny that way.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 43

RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/3/2009 7:02:33 PM

scarlethiney

Posts: 492
Joined: 8/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Maybe im mistaken... but... havent other Presidents also addressed school children?

Yes tazzygirl, almost every president or his wife has addressed children either by showing up at one of the schools (elementary, middle and high school), speaking at colleges etc. Until now no one was flipping out about it and running around screaming indoctrination. What an awesome idea for the President to address America's youth. Good for him and great for them. I do not believe Obama in any way intended for this to be anything but positive.

Of course, some live for the opportunity to create hysteria where there is none. Some will leap at the chance to whine and bitch and invent ridiculous warnings about the danger of anyone, especially a child, hearing anything remotely positive from someone not affiliated with a particular party.
This calculated effort towards hysteria reminds me of the many campaigns began by the losing opposition of fanatics against the group of people who supported the winner . Anything to undermine the country at any cost. This is not Germany, or Cuba and Obama is not Hitler or Fidel and the sky is not falling.

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see my profile masterkspet

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 44

RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/3/2009 7:06:18 PM

scarlethiney

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Maybe im mistaken... but... havent other Presidents also addressed school children?

Yup..Bush, Reagan...the "don't do drugs" message and the literacy program.

I can remember Reagan's broadcast when I was in school and my child has seen the Bush admin's at her school and will now see Obama's.

I personally have no problems with this. Then again I tend to think kids are a lot smarter than adults give them credit for. Most are not so easily susceptible and indoctrination and are pretty well versed in politics actually... a lot more so than most adults I know.

_____________________________

"The words 'I am...' are potent words; be careful what you hitch them to. The thing you're claiming has a way of reaching back and claiming you." - A.L. Kitselman.

see my profile masterkspet

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 45

RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/3/2009 7:15:35 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

When FNC and the moonies decry something I'm always sure it must have been a good thing they found some angle to make look bad.

That's because you see everything on the left as good and everything on the right as bad. One of the main reasons I don't pay much attention to what you say.

Oh and for the record, there are many on the right who see things just as scewed and I don't pay much attention to them either.

That's so funny. Can anyone imagine the howls of outrage the right wingers would be having if it was the left getting support from an Aussie billionaire and a convicted felon foreign national cult leader?

BTW if you had ever actually read anything I wrote on the subject you would know I greatly admire many on the right. Of course admitting that would interfere with your black and white little world.

(in reply to thishereboi)

Post #: 46

RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/3/2009 7:22:19 PM

chiaThePet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: scarlethiney

Of course, some live for the opportunity to create hysteria where there is none.

the sky is not falling.

Maybe.

Maybe not.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/09/02/asteroid.reut/index.html

chia* (the pet)

_____________________________

Love is a many splendid sting.

You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

(in reply to scarlethiney)

Post #: 47

RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/3/2009 7:25:01 PM

SpinnerofTales

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I can't help but think of the reality vs. the horror delerium of those who are so bent out of shape over this.

REAL LIFE AT A PRIMARY SCHOOL AFTER OBAMA'S SPEECH:
Teacher: Johnny, what was the president trying to say to you?
Johnny: He was trying to tell me school was important and that I should study hard.
Teacher: And how could you help the President?
Johnny: By working hard in school and trying to help people.

WHAT THE CRITICS THINK WILL HAPPEN AFTER OBAMA'S SPEECH:
Teacher: Johnny, what was the president trying to say to you?
Johnny: He was trying to say that my Daddy and Mommy are evil because they don't want people to have healthcare and want to torture I-rokies. I hate Daddy and Mommy! I hate them!"
Teacher: And how could you help the Presidesident?
Johnny: By spying on Mommy and Daddy and telling the President all the bad stuff they do like not voting for him and wanting a dirty rotten capitalist state!

REAL LIFE AT A PRIMARY SCHOOL AFTER OBAMA'S SPEECH:
Teacher: So what did the President's speech inspire you to do?
Cathy: It inspired me to really work hard in class so I can get into a good college and maybe be the first woman president and to volunteer at my local soup kitchen.

WHAT THE CRITICS THINK WILL HAPPEN AFTER OBAMA'S SPEECH:
Teacher: So what did the President's speech inspire you to do?
Cathy: It inspired me to follow Obama, who is God, into a new world inspired by Marx, Stalin, Hitler and Jesus Christ (who is just another aspect of Obama). It inspired me to spit in the face of my pig parents who dare to disagree with his enlightened benevolent rule! LONG LIVE OBAMA! LONG LIVE OBAMA!

What's the zip code in the state of paranoia?

(in reply to scarlethiney)

Post #: 48

RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/3/2009 7:31:27 PM

chiaThePet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

REAL LIFE AT A PRIMARY SCHOOL AFTER OBAMA'S SPEECH:
Teacher: So what did the President's speech inspire you to do?
Cathy: It inspired me to really work hard in class so I can get into a good college and maybe be the first woman president and to volunteer at my local soup kitchen.

Paging Hillary Clinton, please pick up the white courtesy phone.

chia* (the pet)

_____________________________

Love is a many splendid sting.

You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)

Post #: 49

RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/3/2009 7:35:48 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

I can't help but think of the reality vs. the horror delerium of those who are so bent out of shape over this.

Because the President's reputation regarding his ability to affectively govern hasn't been further weakened, again not so much by the speech, but by how it was handed. Whatever the President says it will be open for further criticism. He gives a "welcome back speech" it's because its been changed. He gives any reference to ongoing issues its going to be "indoctrination"; a painted corner.

The question is, as one of the advocates for this Administration, why aren't you "bent out of shape" that they allowed it to be am issue? You taking a; hope it will blow over position? Even if they were smart enough to do so and not one more word was said by any opposition, does it help?

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)

Post #: 50

RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/3/2009 8:07:26 PM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

The question is, as one of the advocates for this Administration, why aren't you "bent out of shape" that they allowed it to be am issue? You taking a; hope it will blow over position? Even if they were smart enough to do so and not one more word was said by any opposition, does it help?ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

A valid question, Merc..and by the way, my public compliments. I very often disagree with you, but you at least are someone one can have discourse with. That is valuable.

That said, I think Obama isn't all that stupid on this. He knows that the people screaming about indoctrination and such are never going to like him. He knows that the right wing have adopted a "destroy at all costs" policy on him where everything he does is to be demonized and cast in the worst possible light. However, this is just part of the story.

What he also knows is that, interestingly, even among those who disagree with his policies, he scores remarkably high in personal approval. He also knows that while his policy's approval ratings are going down, this is not being translated into a raise in the approval of those opposing him. In fact, among those coveted independent voters, there is the perception that the right is being distinctly and purposely unhelpful.

Now, what is he going to do on Tuesday? He's going to make a nice, reasonable, inoffensive speech about a subject that almost all can agree upon, that staying in school and doing well is an important thing. This will leave the right to try to demonize what is basically a milk and cookies speech, making them look even more intolerant, or to back down, admitting that perhaps Obama isn't the antichirst all the time. Meantime, Obama gets to do what Obama does best: be charming, well spoken, appearing intelligent and being doggone likable.

Now it's become rather obvious that the country is so polarized that there are those who would vote for Obama if he promised to sell half the country to Iran for a dollar. There is another group who wouldn't vote for him if he brought the economy up to sustainable 20% GDP growth rate, Made world peace after wiping every Islamic fundamentalist off the face of the earth, and pitched a no hitter that helped the Mets win the World Series while coming up with a cure for cancer. The key to winning elections is the independent voter, who isn't incredibly trusting of either side of the political spectrum. So these independents are going to see him at his best in a very low pressure situation (how can you NOT look good making a "stay in school and do your homework" speech?) which will put them into a far more favorable mood towards him when he makes his speech on Wednesday about the controversial health care bill.

Now, since the only other option he has is to let his Presidency be co-opted to the point where he is unable to do or say anything for fear of the way it can be twisted, this seems to me like a sound idea for gaining a bit of much needed ground.

You can say what you like about his policies, but Obama knows how to play politics. The fact that he went from a junior senator to the first black president of the United States when everybody knew that Hillary Clinton was going to be the Democratic party nominee demonstrates that. So maybe he's crazy to do this. Or maybe he's crazy like a fox.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 51

RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/3/2009 8:30:45 PM

FangsNfeet

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Holy Shit

When I was a kid, I remember watching Ronald and Nancy Regan tell us to just say "NO!" to drugs. I also thought that we were going to have WWIII with Russia and see satalites with lasers shooting down misiles.

When Geroge H Bush steped up, I remember the message "Exercise and eat healthy."

When GW became president, he was gving a personal lecture or book reading in a school on 9/11.

So come on. Is seeing Obama tell students "Stay in school, graduate, and finish college." really considered a method of trying to brain wash and politicaly corrupt elementry students?

Weither you like him or hate him, the office of president should still have some respect. I see no wrong in teaching people to listen to the president at a young age. I said "listen" not "obey."

I think one of Americas biggest problems is that we don't have enough people who listen to politicians. As a majority, we hardly ever watch CSPAN, listen to debates, and often change the channel during an Address or Press Conference. By growing up thinking that politicans aren't important enough to listen to; we have allowed them to do just about anything they wanted with our tax dollars and freedom.

I think a president address to schools is a good thing. Tax dollars go into telling students who the president is and what his/her roles are in the country. What message are we telling students if we teach them the powers of the president and then come back with "We're never going to listen to the president?"

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(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 52

RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/4/2009 3:35:10 AM

tazzygirl

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~FR

How do you teach children about current events if you shelter them from what is happening in the White House?

Are we so fearful as a nation that we will drag our kids out of school.... to prevent what. Whats the absolute worse that can happen?

At worse, they listen to a man and get bored to tears. At best, they listen to a man who is very charismatic and they get to see the man who was a what if.. and is now... the first. Talk about inspiring to children! For a long time, only little white males dreamed of being president... because thats all we had as presidents. Children are excited over what has happened.

But, true to form, let adults into the mix and it gets screwed up, labeled, biased and mean-spirited. The attacks start, the name calling, the put downs.... and not just on one side.

Children are not born with the ability to hate, to scorn, to torment, to be bigots towards anyone or anything. WE, as adults, teach them that.

Pulling these kids out of school for the day, in my opinion, is the worse lesson we can send them.

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Post #: 53

RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/4/2009 4:13:21 AM

Louve00

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Maybe im mistaken... but... havent other Presidents also addressed school children?

I don't think you are tazzy. I saw on the news last night that Bush 41 addressed school children (young school children). It was a public address the dem's complained about and said it cost too much to air at the time.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/09/school-districts-in-six-states-to-refrain-from-showing-presidential-address-next-week.html?cid=ESPNheadline

An exceprt from that link (cutting to the quick of your question....)

"The goal of this speech is to encourage students to set goals for themselves," said Higginbottom. "We have a 30 percent drop out rate in this country. We want that reduced."

There is some historical precedent for presidents speaking to students in nationally televised addresses. President George H. W. Bush did so in 1991 and President Ronald Reagan even talked politics with students in 1988.
Nonetheless charges from Republican officials that President Obama is seeking to indoctrinate students -- unsupported by any real evidence -- have been flying.

So you aren't mistaken.

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 54

RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/4/2009 6:26:45 AM

Irishknight

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The true response will be more like:

"Johnny, what did the president's speech mean to you?"

"Ummmm....... welll....... Suzy bit me!! Make her quit!!!"

"But what did you learn from the speech?"

"That school is good and stuff. SHE DID IT AGAIN!!!!"

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Soldiers died for your right to be ungrateful.

(in reply to Louve00)

Post #: 55

RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/4/2009 6:56:54 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
"The goal of this speech is to encourage students to set goals for themselves," said Higginbottom. "We have a 30 percent drop out rate in this country. We want that reduced."

Higginbottom sounds like a BDSM nickname I just have to work out what kink verb Higgin is. I bet she was bullied in school, no doubt.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 9/4/2009 6:57:32 AM >

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Post #: 56

RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/4/2009 7:10:27 AM

Thadius

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*Fast Reply*

Morning all,

For what it is worth, I actually have no problems with the president giving this speech. I honestly think that the speech as suggested is a good thing, and could possibly have some positive outcomes. I still remember the couple of times Reagan addressed the schools, and especially the address after the NASA incident.

My only concerns on this issue involved the materials handed out by the federal Dept of Ed. There are laws and regulations prohibiting the Dept of Ed taking part in or prescribing certain or specific curriculum, any argument could be made that the packets sent out violating these laws, it definitely is in the grey area and borderline on that front. The second problem I had with those materials were some of the actual tasks and questions that were originally included in the packets (the "what can I do to help President Obama" as an example), it also went a step further with those questions. The packets were to have the students write letters to themselves (answering the questions asked), to hand them in, and the letters were to be held on to and given back to the students at a later date to remind them of the pledges that they had made.

Overall, I want to give the administration the benefit of the doubt on this one. The wording of the packets was probably handled by some low level clerk, and should have been done in a more benign way. In other words, I don't think there is some grand conspiracy here. Then again I have been accused of being naive at times.

I wish you well,
Thadius

_____________________________

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(in reply to Irishknight)

Post #: 57

RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/4/2009 7:11:44 AM

Sanity

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A couple of the things that make this different than when other presidents gave a talk about not doing drugs or simply read a childrens book in a classroom, the Obama White House directed the Department of Education to have teachers ask their students read a book about presidents or specifically about Obama and to have students write out reports asking themselves what they could do to help the president.

That's why it's more controversial this time. And what books should teachers have children read about Barack Obama... there are obviously teachers who would take this as some kind of a directive, and run with it.

The White House has been backpedaling considerably since this first became an issue, but there it is.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 9/4/2009 7:25:46 AM >

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Post #: 58

RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/4/2009 7:36:33 AM

sappatoti

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From: the edge of darkness...
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

...My only concerns on this issue involved the materials handed out by the federal Dept of Ed. ...

This was the troubling part for me. The President giving a "stay in school, it's important" type of speech is not a problem with me. Other president's have done the same with various topics over the years. But that's where it ended... kids watching a speech.

In this present case, not only is there a speech but there are printed suggested teaching topics to go along with the speech. This is why the county I reside in has made the decision to NOT show the speech at all that day; they don't like the apparent intrusion by the federal government into an area that has traditionally been under the control of the local school boards: the curriculum.

School systems in the surrounding counties are either banning the speech, recording and delaying the speech until it can be "reviewed" by the local curriculum masters, offering parents the option to remove their children from the classrooms, or allowing the children an unexcused absence that day with written parental consent.

While I am sure that extremists on both sides of the aisle have their reasons for sounding their alarms, the fact that I, as a middle-of-the-road type of guy found the accompanying materials a bit unusual enough reason for me to question this whole affair.

Again, I have no problems with a presidential speech. I do have concerns over the feds trying to turn it into a nationwide curriculum.

[... edited for clarity of thought ...]

< Message edited by sappatoti -- 9/4/2009 7:38:17 AM >

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Post #: 59

RE: Political indoctrination in schools: - 9/4/2009 7:38:01 AM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

A couple of the things that make this different than when other presidents gave a talk about not doing drugs or simply read a childrens book in a classroom, the Obama White House directed the Department of Education to have teachers ask their students read a book about presidents or specifically about Obama and to have students write out reports asking themselves what they could do to help the president.

That's why it's more controversial this time. And what books should teachers have children read about Barack Obama... there are obviously teachers who would take this as some kind of a directive, and run with it.

The White House has been backpedaling considerably since this first became an issue, but there it is.

Another reason this is contraversial is the complete Anti-Obama hysteria being fostered by certain members of the right wing. Come on, reading a book about presidents of the United States or even about the current president of the United States is a bad thing? It is a bad thing to have a k-6 grader thinking that they might be able to set some goals and help the president of the united states? What a horror to have them thinking that they might be part of the political process in a constructive way.

As for the teachers who run with this, it is the teacher's job to pick materials that are appropriate for their classrooms. That is what they are paid for. I would no more expect them to pick a book inapprorpaitly partisan in favor of Obama then I would expect them to pick a book inappropriately negative about Bush. If we cannot trust the teachers to take a good idea and carry it out appropriately, then the problem is with the educational system, not the white house.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 60

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