RE: Maybe read the text with bad instead of evil

RE: Maybe read the text with bad instead of evil (Full Version)

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DesFIP -> RE: Maybe read the text with bad instead of evil (9/4/2009 6:59:02 AM)
Where does it say that one party totally gives up his or her right to offer suggestions, or discuss the problem? That would work against the best interest of both. The dominant makes the decision, but if he's making it in a vacuum, then it won't be the best possible solution. Not to mention he'd be pretty stupid to have chosen someone with skills and then not take advantage of those skills.

leadership527 -> RE: Is TPE really total, and if so is it evil? An outsider view (9/4/2009 8:10:37 AM)
No Henry, not really. Fundamentally, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that despite using the same word, the drafters of that Universal Declaration of Rights meant "concensual slavery" when they wrote that. In fact, I suspect they'd laugh if you could find them and broach that question to them. But aside from arguing book definitions, there is the inescapable reality that there's nothing going on my house that feels "bad". And remember that I was raised in a traditional family and had no idea any of this stuff existed till I was 43 years old... my "good/bad" sensibilities are not skewed in some awkward way by associating with the BDSM subculture. I boss my wife around. So long as I do so in a beneficial manner, then I get to continue doing so When my leadership is no longer beneficial in her opinion, then she will no longer follow. Explain to me again what rights she's given up? At most, she has decided to allow me to handle some of her "rights" on her behalf... temporarily.

KnightofMists -> RE: Is TPE really total, and if so is it evil? An outsider view (9/4/2009 8:40:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Falkenstein The answer is love, love and kink, but firstly deep love. This would actually can lead to an inaccurate perception. In some cases.... people do indeed to it for the love of another.... sometimes it's love for oneself. Ironically... some do it because of a lack of love for themselves more than motivated for the love of another. It is rather nieve to assign love as the primary motivating factor that people engage in TPE dynamics.... and .... no.. I don't think this is kinky either..... The distribution of authority and power has been going on since the begining of time... nothing kinky or new about it. quote: I heard quite a few times is “being complete”. I assume I can translate it in being able to live all the facets of one personality and not to have to negate one in order of living the others. Amusingly, this was the way Nietzsche, the author of “master moral and slave moral” (Herrenmoral und Sklavenmoral) described the right way of life… for a master. I don't prescribe to the idea of complete.... I am never complete until the day I stop growing and change... which to me maybe at the point of death... but... that might be just another step in the journey of the soul. I see living openly in all my aspects of self to another as being vulnerable and open. I also see it as creating an entity beyond myself which is the relationship of two or more people. The more vulnerable and open each individual is within the aspects of the relationship the more authentic the relationship becomes to those apart of it. It's not about completeness... but Authenticity quote: For the master, it is primarily dynamic. The collaring is the start of a process; a process within another process actually. quote: When a very logical master explains that he is still pushing the boundaries of his slave after fifteen years, we can only wonder: is he particularly slow? The obvious answer is that masters enjoy the enslaving process more than the final result. My alandra has been with me since 1988.... I can assure you that your conclusion is very short sighted. It's not about enjoying the process anymore than it is about enjoying the result. I am Alive thus I breath...... I am Master and therefore I master. What is ... IS. I can no easier stop mastering my two girls than I can stop breathing. But some... they wish they they where not breathing and even take steps to do something about it. Others... find away to change their mindset and find themselves enjoying that they are breathing. I accepted who I was a long time ago... and I found ways to enjoy Who I am! I found enjoyment in many ways.... but I am what I am.. and I do what I am... finding enjoyment in it is a choice quote: So yes, inside of the bubble TPE is total. Alot of words that really don't prove much of anything. If you prick me with a pin... do I not bleed. As an individual I am limited by the nature of my humanity and as such I bring such limitation to any relationship I enter into as do others. However... TPE is not about unlimitedness of the individual... it is about the relationship. The question is can individuals enter into such an entity and not further limit the individual relationship to lesser amount that the limitness of their own individual humanity. Logically.. it is possible... but the evidence shows that it is not all that likely to occur.... but not probable doesn't mean impossible. quote: is it bad or even evil. your whole premise is based on the idea that human rights are some fact of life. In fact human rights are part of the social progress of balancing the needs of individual self with needs of society. I also believe that Human rights first became somewhat of a concept back in the days of Greeks.... but that is here or there. Morality in of itself is a subjective animal that has tremendous evolution by the growth of society and development of society. The morality of society is not singular as there are various cultures that have varying social morality. I judge another's actions within another culture not from the prespective of their social morality but from my own social morality. This only makes them wrong and me right within the contexts of the social moral filter that I am viewing the actions from. But social morality is rooted from the developement of individual morality. Even within a given social group.. their will be varying degrees of moral standards. From a universal perspective... its not a white and black issue of moral right and wrong... but one of greys... because there are so many filters from which people view a given situation in a moral context. It is no doubt that from some people's moral filters/standards that they would find TPE dynamics to be morally wrong because their given principles lead to that conclusion. However... different priniciples would actually lead to a different conclusion of the evil nature of TPE dynamics. In fact... for some peoples moral standards.... to inhibit a person's ability to seek and have a TPE relationship dynamic that gives them a greater sense of well-being is and would be evil. I appreciate that some individuals have a different perspective of morality... I accept they will not appreciate my way of life. However... this doesn't make either one of us evil or good.

Falkenstein -> RE: Is TPE really total, and if so is it evil? An outsider view (9/4/2009 10:01:01 AM)
Jeff, I am not here to convince anybody of anything. quote: "there is the inescapable reality that there's nothing going on my house that feels "bad"" I know my command of English is not the best, but I think that I made pretty clear that I consider TPE or whatever you want to call your relationship not a bad thing... Actually I did not make it pretty clear after all, and it is has nothing to do with my English. Scheisse! Let me try it again: Firstly evil is a bad choice of word, I should have used "bad" instead. Secondly, I had grave doubt on the morality of TPE. However, I have come to the conclusion that, while there are some risks involved, it is the right thing to do for certain couples. Moreover, this conclusion include my personal case. I apologize for my bad wording. Since you made me aware of this, and it is later than 6pm over here, I will open my first beer of the weekend and drink it to your health and to the hapiness of your household Kinky regards, Henry

Prinsexx -> RE: Is TPE really total, and if so is it evil? An outsider view (9/4/2009 10:12:10 AM)
Aha yes all very well but where does the Master's power come from? In theory/practice it arises from authority transfer from slave to Master: consensual transfer. This is what differentiates it from any other/historical Master/slave relationship. It is TPE or PPE (partial power exchange) depending upon what the transfer agreement it. Total/partial can mean temporal (for a given period of time) and or spatial(within or without the physical presence of each other). It is TPE or PPE until the contract is terminated either by the Master releasing the slave or the slave releasing themself. I have retreated from TPE to PPE or stepped up from PPE to TPE for an agreed period of time (24 hours/48 hours and so on). TPE or PPE is not synonymous with 24/7 although those dynamics are often confused. In my opinion/experience TPE is not possible 24/7. Evil is NOT a word I would use from a position of informed consent but only from a position of ignorance.

leadership527 -> RE: Is TPE really total, and if so is it evil? An outsider view (9/4/2009 11:28:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Falkenstein Since you made me aware of this, and it is later than 6pm over here, I will open my first beer of the weekend and drink it to your health and to the hapiness of your household [/font][/size] chuckles I'll drink to that! More seriously, I wasn't offended at your OP Henry. But you went down some paths that didn't really jive with the reality observe on a daily basis and I wanted to call out those differences. Whether or not Carol & I are TPE (I say that because I readily admit that there are a host of limitations on the ways I would use my authority), there are no abridged rghts in our relationship that I'm aware of. Carol is just as "free" as I am. Notions like "rights", "freedom", etc. need to be examined very carefully in my opinion. I don't really see either as relevant to an interpersonal relationship. I don't have any "rights" in my relationship. I am collaborating with my wife in an attempt to make the happiest life we know how. But I don't have the "right" to boss her around any more than she has the obligation to obey. Carol temporarily has granted me the authority to make decisions on her behalf. That's it.

Fadingthought -> RE: Is TPE really total, and if so is it evil? An outsider view (9/4/2009 12:15:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally Sometimes I fear we get lost in the terms and forget that M/s D/s whatever is people in a relationship The voice of reason.

Falkenstein -> RE: Is TPE really total, and if so is it evil? An outsider view (9/4/2009 3:23:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven Since at least the time of JFK, the US President has had the means at his disposal to decimate the entire globe. No President has used that power or even threatened to do so. Dear Steven, I agree with the rest of your post completely, but on that point I disagree. Firstly, any president of a nuclear power is threatening the potential enemies of his nation with annihilation. In French it is called dissuasion nucléaire (I am getting more prudent in my translations now ;-) I think the Americans coined the great acronym MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) which is the greatest possible example of check and balance, thus your example proves Montesquieu right and you are wrong. Although it must be remembered, that for several years, the USA had a monopoly on nuclear weapons and did not use them. This would prove that you are right and both Montesquieu and I are wrong. However I discount this as a historic abnormality. The USA is the only power in history that, three times within a century managed to get absolute power and did not abuse it. I can either change my theory or simply ask you: What is wrong with you guys? ;-) Kinky regards, Henry

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Is TPE really total, and if so is it evil? An outsider view (9/4/2009 3:46:41 PM)
I think that the fundamental issue here is in the title -- this is someone who is, by his own admission, an outsider to this process. It is my observation that things like comprehensive-authority dynamics really can't be accurately observed and evaluated from the outside, they're a process that requires immersion to comprehend fully... sort of like learning a foreign language. So an observer may be able to see aspects of the process, but will never really understand the nature and -culture- of the comprehensive-authority dynamic. Because of that, it seems to me that it is not really valuable to debate an outsider's perceptions, because without immersion, it is like trying to hold a conversation with someone who doesn't speak more than a pidgin version of one's language, and is virtually guaranteed to result in further misunderstanding. Dame Calla

Prinsexx -> RE: Is TPE really total, and if so is it evil? An outsider view (9/4/2009 6:07:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW I think that the fundamental issue here is in the title -- this is someone who is, by his own admission, an outsider to this process. It is my observation that things like comprehensive-authority dynamics really can't be accurately observed and evaluated from the outside, they're a process that requires immersion to comprehend fully... sort of like learning a foreign language. So an observer may be able to see aspects of the process, but will never really understand the nature and -culture- of the comprehensive-authority dynamic. Because of that, it seems to me that it is not really valuable to debate an outsider's perceptions, because without immersion, it is like trying to hold a conversation with someone who doesn't speak more than a pidgin version of one's language, and is virtually guaranteed to result in further misunderstanding. Dame Calla I feel I understand what I understand about what you are saying nd that is why I usually speak from the point of view of having been immersed or from immersion so to speak. I just speak from experience and from personal experience at that. If I am not speaking directly from experience then I wil add in my opinion to my post. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't speak from experience. Now with regard to offering another approach I am also aware that I can speak from judgment. I also do this here on the forum when passing a comment on something about which I am not fully or even remotey informed. Now if I make a statement about someone else's dynamic then that has to be opinion and my opinion can be on a conituum from informed to judgment. If I make a statement from expernce than I am forced to talk about my relationship(s). Actually it's xomplicated because I do have the capacity to talk about my own role as slave submissive either directly from experience or as informed opinion. I'd hazard a guess to say I could ne self critical and judgmental about myself also. I would rarely if ever want to bring thr concept evil into any of these equations. That word I would reserve for acts of sexual sadism rather than consensual sado-masochism. But I can see how from some world vuews sado-masochism can be seen as an evil. But then some world views suggest anything outside of that world view is vy default an evil. And thus spake fundamentalism. Conclusion: it's possible to speak directly from experience about one and the same dynasmic and at some point view it as TPE and at another point view it as PPE and at another point (post release0 to dismiss it as a relationship which mever worked at all.

Falkenstein -> RE: Is TPE really total, and if so is it evil? An outsider view (9/4/2009 6:13:26 PM)
Prinsexx, "evil" was a bad choice of word from me. "Bad" would be more in line with your culture. kinky regard Henry

lovingpet -> RE: Is TPE really total, and if so is it evil? An outsider view (9/4/2009 6:14:52 PM)
I have a relationship that makes me feel so very happy, fulfilled, and safe. If that's evil, then call my partner the devil. lovingpet

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Is TPE really total, and if so is it evil? An outsider view (9/4/2009 9:36:51 PM)
~FR~ Actually good and evil are defined by morals and ethics. The morals of many in the western world would find TPE, and many other things discussed on this website to be evil. Hell even between members of this forum, many have inferred they felt someone else was being abused or brainwashed, which would constitute evil to many. Personally I allow society to do as it please, because often society tries to define truth, but much to society's chagrin, truth does not care much about what society says.

lally2 -> RE: Maybe read the text with bad instead of evil (9/5/2009 5:48:28 AM)
its interesting to me how people who have no idea what a thing is suddenly believe they have a handle on it and understand it. you cannot understand what you have never experienced, you can imagine, you can hypothosise, but you cannot know. what you also cannot do is generalise for a variety of people in a variety of relationships run in a variety of ways. TPE can go from absolute micromanagement to two people simply living their lives together with the M always having the final say on things. and whilst that might seem unrealistic and anathama to some people truely it is the way some people like to conduct their relationships. personally i cant hack Ds, i could never get my head around how i was supposed to switch from vanilla to Ds when i am always me (sub/slave) and by dint of that i always preferred for my D to have the final choice, decision. it always seemed odd to me that one minute i was expected to be the sub and the next minute i could decree what i wanted, when i wanted it. horses for courses i guess. its a bit irksome really, that here of all places people are almost having to defend themselves and yet a couple of weeks ago we had a discussion about being accepting of other peoples 'out there' kinks, like abortion. there seems to be an almost 'my kink is better than youres' thing going on based almost entirely on the basis that they dont know what it is their comparing themselves to. and what DarkStephen said about sums it up

Falkenstein -> RE: Maybe read the text with bad instead of evil (9/5/2009 9:15:32 AM)
Lally, of course one can understand what he has never experienced! It is called empathy, putting yourself in other people's shoes... and it works pretty well I agree with you, experience is better than hypothesis, and deductions, but please tell me what a person should do who has a moral dillema precisely about this experience? Well he observes, build hypotheses, let them fall, contrast opinions, build again hypotheses... After he certain time, he as a pretty good picture -- according to himself, of course -- upon which he can base his decision. BTW, did JFK ask for somebody with experience in moonwalking before making his decision? I did not wrote the OP to critisize other's people life. Believe me, the tone and the arguments would have been different. I did not wrote to impress anybody either, deductions, how brillant they may be, never impress. If I want to impress, I write stories or essays on a subject I master I wrote the OP with Word, as a way of synthetising my thinking, to cleanse my head, make my choice and come to peace with myself. Because I write much easier when I think of a public, I decided to publish here on the forum. I knew it would irk some people. So what? I do not impose the reading of my posts to anybody afterall (now, that is a nasty idea, impose to a slave the reading of my posts. But as tortures go, this would not ne safe and sane) Actually it irked more people than I would have wished because of my evil choice of word (evil instead of bad). Kinky regards

stella41b -> RE: Is TPE really total, and if so is it evil? An outsider view (9/5/2009 9:24:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Falkenstein TPE is radically different because one partner, the woman (I focused of male/dom female/slave situations) gives up her right to contest, negotiate or even discuss any decision. But the woman here is granted the right to be herself totally and to submit, serve and obey freely without any thought of herself as she is with a dominant who she trusts to look after her welfare and interests and her consent can also be seen as a request to her dominant to grant her that right. quote: ORIGINAL: Falkenstein The man is invested with all powers, including upon things which are not open to debate in mainstream relations like sitting, clothing, of the woman of course. The woman gives thus all control upon her life to her partner. And yet the power of choice whether to submit or obey to her dominant remains with the slave, who also retains the power to make such choices just as much as she retains the power to decide whether to stay or leave. That total power of the dominant in a TPE dynamic is illusory and counts for nothing without the commitment and consent of the slave. Of course, we're talking about a consensual TPE relationship here, are we not? quote: ORIGINAL: Falkenstein Is TPE static or dynamic? All relationships are dynamic, irrespective of how they are perceived. quote: ORIGINAL: Falkenstein Is TPE really total? In a situation where a slave assumes global control by giving her consent and transferring authority to her dominant to exercise more specific and immediate control totally over her person then yes, TPE is really total. It's the old mathematical formula. D + s = TPE (for the purpose of this thread) D - s = 0 quote: ORIGINAL: Falkenstein In a master slave relationship, it is obvious that the slave’s rights are trampled upon like a doormat at a Christmas party in Minnesota. How are rights 'trampled upon' when consent has been given?

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Maybe read the text with bad instead of evil (9/5/2009 9:41:06 AM)
quote: of course one can understand what he has never experienced! It is called empathy, putting yourself in other people's shoes... and it works pretty well I disagree -profoundly- with this statement. Without experiencing a thing, one can have a limited, two-dimensional perspective of that thing, and one can make a personal judgment about its suitability for oneself, but one -cannot- "understand" a thing without experiencing it. Period. I think that empathy is not even remotely close to "understanding", unless one has experience the same thing that one is empathizing with another about. "Understanding" is a -brain- thing. It is about knowledge and experience and having dissected the thing and examined it from as close of a perspective as one can have. Empathy is an -emotional- thing. It doesn't come with knowledge, but is an embracing of another person's emotional response to something -- and it is -not- understanding. If you have not experienced something, I don't care -how- empathic you are, you cannot possibly understand that thing -- and I would go even further in saying that, unless you have -been- the person who has been through the experience, even if you have been through the -exact- same experience, you cannot "understand" the experience from within the other person's mind and presence -- because each of us perceives things completely differently. We have compelled a common language to give us the barest capacity to relate to one another about similar situations, but that is -not- "understanding". Dame Calla

leadership527 -> RE: Maybe read the text with bad instead of evil (9/5/2009 9:49:27 AM)
I'm going to have to agree with you Dame Calla. I consider myself a highly empathic individual who is, in general, in pretty good tune with those around him. But I am acutely aware of the limitations of that. I would say that both empathy and understanding both imply an 2nd or 3rd person viewpoint. They are not the same as experience which is a first person viewpoint. For me, I need at least some experience AND some intellectual understanding before I can truly feel comfortable with a topic.

AnimusRex -> RE: Maybe read the text with bad instead of evil (9/5/2009 10:27:02 AM)
For me, this thread illustrates the dangers inherent in examining a thing solely from a theoretical, abstract viewpoint. Instead of examining TPE as a scientist would do- observing the real phenomenon, measuring and gauging its effects and consequences, the Op constructs it in an abstract definition, and measures it against theoretical writings about morality and freedom. We don't go around saying that fascism or socialism are bad because of some theory proposed by a philosopher; we have all observed the terrible effects and consequences of them. They can be measured and verified independently. What TPE couples has he studied? What bad effects or consequences has he observed? Were they happy and well-adjusted, or miserable and psychotic? Have others observed the same and arrived at the same conclusions? Without real world examples of what he is talking about, the entire discussion becomes a data-free, fact-free echo chamber, empty constructs of words that mean only what their authors want them to mean.

happylittlepet -> RE: Maybe read the text with bad instead of evil (9/5/2009 11:27:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Falkenstein Lally, of course one can understand what he has never experienced! It is called empathy, putting yourself in other people's shoes... and it works pretty well Dame Calla wrote what I wanted to say to this. I agree with you, experience is better than hypothesis, and deductions, but please tell me what a person should do who has a moral dillema precisely about this experience? What is the experience? Do you mean your own? What you write below does not give me the idea you have your own experience. So now I am confused. Well he observes, build hypotheses, let them fall, contrast opinions, build again hypotheses... After he certain time, he as a pretty good picture -- according to himself, of course -- upon which he can base his decision. BTW, did JFK ask for somebody with experience in moonwalking before making his decision? Why would you have a moral dilemma about it when you are not involved? If you mean that someone else who is involved has a moral dilemma, it's up to that person to figure it out for him/herself. Your question about JFK is not related to what you brought to the table in your OP. JFK sent someone to get that experience. It could have ended badly for the person he sent, fortunately it didn't. But even if that person would have died, e.g. due to technical difficulties on the way back, that doesn't make moonwalking bad/evil. To me the moonwalking example has nothing to do with morals. Maybe an example that involved a moral issue would have worked better. Although, I am afraid that we would be back to Dame Calla's point. I did not wrote the OP to critisize other's people life. Believe me, the tone and the arguments would have been different. I did not wrote to impress anybody either, deductions, how brillant they may be, never impress. If I want to impress, I write stories or essays on a subject I master I wrote the OP with Word, as a way of synthetising my thinking, to cleanse my head, make my choice and come to peace with myself. Because I write much easier when I think of a public, I decided to publish here on the forum. What is your choice? Why does it give you peace? I am serious when asking this. I knew it would irk some people. So what? I do not impose the reading of my posts to anybody afterall (now, that is a nasty idea, impose to a slave the reading of my posts. But as tortures go, this would not ne safe and sane) You don't care that some people are irked? Why not? Actually it irked more people than I would have wished because of my evil choice of word (evil instead of bad). I thought you would say to that 'So what?' I was not irked because of your choice of words, if you had used bad I would have been irked the same way. Not because I am involved in TPE or because of the evil/bad connotation, but because you write from a no-experience point of view. Back to Dame Calla's post. On this page you wrote to Jeff : quote: Secondly, I had grave doubt on the morality of TPE. However, I have come to the conclusion that, while there are some risks involved, it is the right thing to do for certain couples. Moreover, this conclusion include my personal case. If it's the right thing to do for certain couples, is it still bad/evil? Your last sentence makes me wonder again if you have or do not have personal experience with TPE.

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