RE: Getting into the grey

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SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 10:45:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic ??? The guy I'm talking about is specifically mention in the OP link, Polite. The thing is, when we start talking about poor terrorist "X" who was waterboarded 183 times, we aren't talking about some random jerk-off who was captured for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. That was a particular guy; Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who planned 9/11. That's an important fact that is left out of way too much discussion of the subject. The reason you should care is because of how it makes you look. People all around the world lose faith with the US when it is seen to do such things and for what reason are they done, to get a load of intelligence about a past event (911) that you can't even use to prosecute him?

SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 10:50:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg And the article is not a ticking time bomb argument. One part of it is. quote: It is an argument based on making sure that detainees know there is no bad cop consequences, and what that means for interogations. So how does that work for people prepared to die for their cause? They probably don't like the hypocrisy of the US claiming the west is a less barbaric world whilst threatening them with torture. Perhaps if they were treated well they would feel more guilt about their actions, basically interrogators know fuck all about human psychology if they think threatening someone who already feels morally superior is going to work, it will just reinforce their sentiment and make them play games with you.

Politesub53 -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 11:15:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 I also didnt think we were discussing any particular guy, but an imaginary scenario as per Firms link, so nice work making the leap. ??? The guy I'm talking about is specifically mention in the OP link, Polite. The thing is, when we start talking about poor terrorist "X" who was waterboarded 183 times, we aren't talking about some random jerk-off who was captured for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. That was a particular guy; Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who planned 9/11. That's an important fact that is left out of way too much discussion of the subject. From the link in OP ( sorry i thought Firm had posted it. quote: Ishmael is someone I invented, but he is not a far-fetched creation. He states he is talking about someone he invented. Either hes lying or he isnt, if he meant KSM he should have made it clear. It makes no ods to my stance though, torture is illegal in the US, and attempt to make people think we are debating some new "Grey area" is just B/s. Its the same old topic rehashed in my book.

luckydawg -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 11:17:50 AM)
No, its not (ticking bomb). Time is an inherant part of all activites within the human perception. But the existance of the time does not equal the Ticking bomb scenario (which I feel is flawed, and have never used). Oh I think they are motivated by far more than westsern hypocrisy. I bet everyone of them thanks Allah that they are in Gitmo being waterboarded, instead of some Syrian, Iranian, or Afghani prision, actually being tortured. I think the reality is far closer to what Cohen describes in his article.

DomKen -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 11:27:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg Domken were there any paticular pages out of the hundreds you link to, that you wanted to be considered? Or is that just a use of the "dump pile" debate tactic? I provided the link to the ACLU's copy of the report Cohen is discussing. If you haven't read it how are you supposed to make any sort of intelligent response to Cohen's article or my criticism of that article based on the facts as presented in that same report. Of course you will fall back on your tried and true method of 'make it up.' For those who actually want to know the truth the report is there and the report never even implies that torture produced any actionable intelligence.

TheHeretic -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 11:54:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 He states he is talking about someone he invented. In the opening line, yes, and while KSM does get a specific mention in the article: The CIA inspector general's report on the quite brutal interrogation of Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the so-called Sept. 11 mastermind, suggests he only turned cooperative when he was repeatedly waterboarded and that the information he provided saved lives. Yet so much was redacted from the report that it is not clear that this is unambiguously the case. ...you are correct. Maybe it was the tequila, but I was thinking of the additional information in the link Kirata posted when I referenced KSM, and my lack of concern for his well-being. My bad.

tazzygirl -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 12:59:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3 quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg And the article is not a ticking time bomb argument. One part of it is. quote: It is an argument based on making sure that detainees know there is no bad cop consequences, and what that means for interogations. So how does that work for people prepared to die for their cause? They probably don't like the hypocrisy of the US claiming the west is a less barbaric world whilst threatening them with torture. Perhaps if they were treated well they would feel more guilt about their actions, basically interrogators know fuck all about human psychology if they think threatening someone who already feels morally superior is going to work, it will just reinforce their sentiment and make them play games with you. you are either idealistic or kidding, right? or just being a fool. americans go to other countries and tend to at least try not to step on toes there because of the horror stories about how we may be treated in their jails. so now you are suggesting treating men, who had the ability to kill thousands of people without a inkling of guilt, humanely in HOPES that they give up their comrads in terrorism. must be nice in your world of oz. in my world, people die as the results of US policy. i happen to believe in the benefits of torture, to a point. what has happened though is that we have been pussy whipped by the ACLU so much, we cow tow to most of their demands, then settle back like errant little children while they berate us for treating others less than humanely. what happened to the humane treatment of people in those towers? the london night club? so many other places? maybe its time we had a torture policy here. it just MIGHT give terrorists a pause before the next strike. if you know you are going to commit a horrible act in the US, and realize that IF you are caught, its no holds bar, and you may be subject to various forms of treatment, they might not have as many willing participants. you wont see the heads or "masterminds" coming here... they tend to be cowards who hide within their own countries. recruiting others with, among other things, as promises of how the US will treat them "fairly" because we have said so. i dont see sleep deprivation, dietary changes, ect as extrenme torture. these people who can kill without a thought surely do not have a mind that can be anymore twisted, tormented or could it be much altered by lack of sleep. its time we stopped being a bleeding heart society towards terrorism, and started building a level of fear in the outside world. we have been nice for a long time.... and look where it has gotten us.

DomKen -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 2:46:44 PM)
Tazzy as bizzare as it may seem, and I agree it is bizzare, the facts are very well established that an interrogation policy of confinement and building rapport which does require reasonably good treatment is by far the most effective method of getting reliable intelligence from a suspect.

tazzygirl -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 2:48:07 PM)
and that report was published by whom?

DomKen -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 2:51:10 PM)
The CIA amongst others. It's actually mentioned in the report that is the subject of this thread.

tazzygirl -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 2:57:16 PM)
ah yes, the CIA, someone we should absolutely trust with such information. and while it may be correct that establishing a "healthy report" might work, in the long run, are we truly willing to risk our lives waiting to test that theory? oh wait, we did

TheHeretic -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 3:00:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen the report that is the subject of this thread. I do wish you'd make up your mind about these things, Ken. First it was about a "ticking bomb" scenario, then we were supposed to accept your absolute conclusions about a report most insiders (and the author of the article I linked to) say is too heavily redacted to draw any real conclusions from at all. Just going on what I had in mind as the subject of the thread when I started it, it's about the uncertainties and deep areas of grey that surround this very difficult subject.

DomKen -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 4:13:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen the report that is the subject of this thread. I do wish you'd make up your mind about these things, Ken. First it was about a "ticking bomb" scenario, then we were supposed to accept your absolute conclusions about a report most insiders (and the author of the article I linked to) say is too heavily redacted to draw any real conclusions from at all. Just going on what I had in mind as the subject of the thread when I started it, it's about the uncertainties and deep areas of grey that surround this very difficult subject. The column you linked to is directly discussing the report the ACLU got released by the FOIA. Therefore the report is the subject of this thread. The grey area is that he and you ignore the information provided in the report. There is no grey area or uncertainty about whethe ror not we should torture. We shouldn't because it doesn't work and it is morally wrong.

SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 4:35:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl you are either idealistic or kidding, right? or just being a fool. A fool is someone that can’t learn lessons from history, we had torture in Europe it never lead to anything good, they have it now in the middle east and look how fucked up that place is, they had it in Soviet Russia nobody wanted to be a part of that place not even the Russians, then there is Nazi Germany they used to send the SS all over the place torturing people to garner information. With these fine examples from history how on earth can we not think torture a good idea, let us take them racks out of mothballs and get the real party started! quote: americans go to other countries and tend to at least try not to step on toes there because of the horror stories about how we may be treated in their jails. Are you sure it isn't the case that you are scared because your government has no moral high ground left to demand they do things differently in such places? You see you can't condemn what people do in other parts of the world if you actively support it by transporting prisoners there for interrogation. quote: so now you are suggesting treating men, who had the ability to kill thousands of people without a inkling of guilt, humanely in HOPES that they give up their comrads in terrorism. On whose word does a suspect have the ability to kill anyone? Why are people so ignorant that they think no innocent person has ever been tortured for information they don't have based on the telepathic abilities of an interrogator? Get your head out of the sand and realise these people are suspects not proven criminals and even if their guilt had been proven the thing that separates us morally is we won't stoop to their level. quote: must be nice in your world of oz. Sure beats living in your head. quote: in my world, people die as the results of US policy. i happen to believe in the benefits of torture, to a point. what has happened though is that we have been pussy whipped by the ACLU so much, we cow tow to most of their demands, then settle back like errant little children while they berate us for treating others less than humanely. what happened to the humane treatment of people in those towers? the london night club? so many other places? Here is the simple lesson for you: we are not them, nothing they do will make us the animals they are. What next are we going to justify to beat them, you want us to become as bad as them and make no distinction between suspects and convicted criminals? quote: maybe its time we had a torture policy here. it just MIGHT give terrorists a pause before the next strike. if you know you are going to commit a horrible act in the US, and realize that IF you are caught, its no holds bar, and you may be subject to various forms of treatment, they might not have as many willing participants. you wont see the heads or "masterminds" coming here... they tend to be cowards who hide within their own countries. recruiting others with, among other things, as promises of how the US will treat them "fairly" because we have said so. The ss tortured people all the time but it didn't stop the resistance to Nazi Germany and you'll find those modern states that condone torture have their own terrorist problems. I mean it's not like you never hear of terrorist attacks in Jordan or Egypt is it? The other problem with your argument is how do the people you suspect of being masterminds get past your border control in the first place? Once again what is the source of the suspicion that makes them masterminds? Should we just pull people off the street and torture them to see if those pictures they are taking are purely for tourism. What is the level of suspicion required to be able to torture and how do you want to control that? It may be somewhat inconvenient but those accused of something have the right to a fair trial with any evidence against them derived from torture being inadmissible. quote: i dont see sleep deprivation, dietary changes, ect as extrenme torture. these people who can kill without a thought surely do not have a mind that can be anymore twisted, tormented or could it be much altered by lack of sleep. Once again with the 'these people'. If we know they are 'these people' why can't we charge 'these people' for the crimes they have committed? Why do we need to torture them to build a case? Are you volunteering to set your alarm for two hour intervals during the night for a week? I'll tell you what, you do that and I'll say yes that is fine. Are you a vegetarian can I force you to eat meat, what do you mean by dietary changes, can I put laxatives in your food? Would that be against medical advice or can we just about get away with it? The problem with you is you seem to be a black and white kind of person where if a government official tells you someone did something wrong you believe them without question. Like all those people held in Cuba some of them it seems not so dangerous that they can’t be released after a few years without ever being charged. quote: its time we stopped being a bleeding heart society towards terrorism, and started building a level of fear in the outside world. we have been nice for a long time.... and look where it has gotten us. It has got us a fair legal system that assumes innocence. You scare me more than they do because you and others are killing (with this attitude) everything the west was built around and the mistakes we have learnt from in the past. The protections we have in place for every citizen you propose tearing down because I don't know what Mr Terrorist looks like he could look like you to your government. We can't remove the protections for only those we suspect of being terrorists we have to remove these protections for everyone and for every crime. Perhaps torturing a kidnapper could lead to the discovery of a kidnap victim before they die, there are plenty of theoretical scenarios this torture aspect could be applied to. When the terrorists ultimate aim is met of turning the west into a paranoid totalitarian police state then your government will have this ability to torture you, just give it time. The way I see it is we are the only ones with something to lose when we torture people.

tazzygirl -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 4:59:02 PM)
quote: A fool is someone that can’t learn lessons from history, we had torture in Europe it never lead to anything good, they have it now in the middle east and look how fucked up that place is, they had it in Soviet Russia nobody wanted to be a part of that place not even the Russians, then there is Nazi Germany they used to send the SS all over the place torturing people to garner information. With these fine examples from history how on earth can we not think torture a good idea, let us take them racks out of mothballs and get the real party started! when was the last time we heard about Russia having these problems (not internally created) or the Middle East? quote: Are you sure it isn't the case that you are scared because your government has no moral high ground left to demand they do things differently in such places? You see you can't condemn what people do in other parts of the world if you actively support it by transporting prisoners there for interrogation. im not condemning them for what they do there. im comdemning them for what they do here. in this case, im no bleeding softy. quote: On whose word does a suspect have the ability to kill anyone? Why are people so ignorant that they think no innocent person has ever been tortured for information they don't have based on the telepathic abilities of an interrogator? Get your head out of the sand and realise these people are suspects not proven criminals and even if their guilt had been proven the thing that separates us morally is we won't stoop to their level. and they know we sont.. which gives them license to do pretty much what they want. quote: Sure beats living in your head. yeah, my head is a messed up place. dont try to understand me, you will fail, repeatedly. quote: Here is the simple lesson for you: we are not them, nothing they do will make us the animals they are. What next are we going to justify to beat them, you want us to become as bad as them and make no distinction between suspects and convicted criminals? works for them, dont it. quote: The ss tortured people all the time but it didn't stop the resistance to Nazi Germany and you'll find those modern states that condone torture have their own terrorist problems. I mean it's not like you never hear of terrorist attacks in Jordan or Egypt is it? The other problem with your argument is how do the people you suspect of being masterminds get past your border control in the first place? Once again what is the source of the suspicion that makes them masterminds? Should we just pull people off the street and torture them to see if those pictures they are taking are purely for tourism. What is the level of suspicion required to be able to torture and how do you want to control that? It may be somewhat inconvenient but those accused of something have the right to a fair trial with any evidence against them derived from torture being inadmissible. Once again with the 'these people'. If we know they are 'these people' why can't we charge 'these people' for the crimes they have committed? Why do we need to torture them to build a case? Are you volunteering to set your alarm for two hour intervals during the night for a week? I'll tell you what, you do that and I'll say yes that is fine. Are you a vegetarian can I force you to eat meat, what do you mean by dietary changes, can I put laxatives in your food? Would that be against medical advice or can we just about get away with it? The problem with you is you seem to be a black and white kind of person where if a government official tells you someone did something wrong you believe them without question. Like all those people held in Cuba some of them it seems not so dangerous that they can’t be released after a few years without ever being charged. now you are putting words into my thread, quit assuming you know me, or my thoughts. i have no problem knowing someone is being tortured for the sake of information. if you have a problem with it, and it becomes a law here, i suggest you stay on your side of the pond. nor did i explore the physical attributes of torture. the mental can be quite enough. and yes, i have woken up people every two hours... as ordered by a physician... as required for care. tell ya what... when it works in the UK, we will give it a go here. you cant solve your own terrorists problems, and you give the US grief? quote: It has got us a fair legal system that assumes innocence. You scare me more than they do because you and others are killing (with this attitude) everything the west was built around and the mistakes we have learnt from in the past. The protections we have in place for every citizen you propose tearing down because I don't know what Mr Terrorist looks like he could look like you to your government. We can't remove the protections for only those we suspect of being terrorists we have to remove these protections for everyone and for every crime. Perhaps torturing a kidnapper could lead to the discovery of a kidnap victim before they die, there are plenty of theoretical scenarios this torture aspect could be applied to. When the terrorists ultimate aim is met of turning the west into a paranoid totalitarian police state then your government will have this ability to torture you, just give it time. The way I see it is we are the only ones with something to lose when we torture people. explain to me whats fair about a system that concerns itself with one over the welfare of the many. if i scare you so much, block me, always your option. just never assume you have any understanding of where i am coming from. you didnt walk my path in life, you have not dealt with my losses, nor do you have the capacity to understand my heritage. i never once said to torture those without judicial review... i said the option should be available. now, since you know my mind so well.. according to you... you figure out what that means and try and get it right this time.

Arrogance -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 5:35:19 PM)
You tell others that they're living in the world of Oz and call them "idealistic or fools" and you're gonna get butthurt when they respond in similar fashion? Learn to take what you attempt to dish out.

tazzygirl -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 5:38:25 PM)
at least he can articulate his meaning.

Arrogance -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 5:42:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl at least he can articulate his meaning. As did I. I'm sorry you couldn't comprehend what was obvious in what I had said.

tazzygirl -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 5:44:27 PM)
LOL... you said no... not much articulation there sweetheart... but keep trying, k?

Arrogance -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/5/2009 5:47:28 PM)
And then I explained how a flat tax favors the rich and you somehow didn't understand that, at which point I gave up on ever expecting you to comprehend well... anything.

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