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SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Getting into the grey (9/6/2009 8:05:27 AM)
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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
when was the last time we heard about Russia having these problems (not internally created) or the Middle East?
It helps if all the media is run by the state. You don't hear about it for other reasons but in any case I wasn't talking about modern Russia. I was talking about the time people used to disappear and nobody knew why. Actually for some not much has changed you'll find those with all the money favour moving to the UK or other parts of Europe over their own homeland.
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im not condemning them for what they do there. im comdemning them for what they do here. in this case, im no bleeding softy.
I think you'd probably want them to stop if you saw what they did even if the person they were doing it to was the devil himself. Compared to other nations the US are novices regarding their methods. You should not make such statements because they are too easy to make when you are isolated from the actual suffering involved.
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On whose word does a suspect have the ability to kill anyone? Why are people so ignorant that they think no innocent person has ever been tortured for information they don't have based on the telepathic abilities of an interrogator? Get your head out of the sand and realise these people are suspects not proven criminals and even if their guilt had been proven the thing that separates us morally is we won't stoop to their level.
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and they know we sont.. which gives them license to do pretty much what they want.
There are strategic advantages to act the way they do and also there are advantages for us to act the way we do. They will not win based on us having a moral code, they may take advantage of it but if there is enough evidence against them it is irrelevant how much they try to take advantage of our justice system. We don't say 'oh we must torture a crime boss because he is taking advantage of our legal system', we have to find a way to gather evidence against him, build a case, prosecute it and sentence him. It does not matter what field of criminal activity the process is the same and can't be escaped forever by playing the system.
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Here is the simple lesson for you: we are not them, nothing they do will make us the animals they are. What next are we going to justify to beat them, you want us to become as bad as them and make no distinction between suspects and convicted criminals?
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works for them, dont it.
Does it work for them have they won yet this war? How exactly do they win this war of theirs?
For me there is only one measure it's an important measure not pie in the sky stuff :
How much have they changed us compared to how much have we changed them?
I make this point continuously but they can only change us when we change who we are as a result of what they are doing to us.
On the basis of your posts here I'd say they are winning, I'd make that judgement based perhaps on you never thinking torture was a good idea before 911, but I'd only be guessing as to what your opinion on torture was before 911.
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tell ya what... when it works in the UK, we will give it a go here. you cant solve your own terrorists problems, and you give the US grief?
Terrorism is a global problem these days you must be having a laugh if you think the US or any other nation is going to solve this issue alone. Not even with all your military power will you ever be able to stop someone coming into your country and planting a bomb. You have to take a pragmatic approach be vigilant and see what you can do defensively. If all your actions are seen to be pure defence and not pre-emptive aggressive actions on other territories then perhaps sooner or later any argument they have will have no voice to a wider audience. Most people around the world are good people able to distinguish right from wrong, some people have warped values and are able to convince others of their values based on demonstrated half truths relating to US actions in other parts of the world. If you are seen as whiter than white your cause will garner more sympathy than theirs.
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explain to me whats fair about a system that concerns itself with one over the welfare of the many.
There are many people in US custody not just one. Let us look at this recurring question of yours from another perspective. If a terrorist blackmailed you saying 'you must kill everyone in this school or a nuclear bomb will be set of in this city', would you agree to that?
OK perhaps this question is more favourable:
If a terrorist blackmailed you saying 'you must kill everyone in this prison or a nuclear bomb will be set of in this city', would you agree to that?
I wouldn't agree to that because I'd be the one doing something wrong even if it was to kill just one person to save a thousand I wouldn't do that either sorry.
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if i scare you so much, block me, always your option. just never assume you have any understanding of where i am coming from. you didnt walk my path in life, you have not dealt with my losses, nor do you have the capacity to understand my heritage.
I can only read the words you write to form an opinion of who you are, it's up to you to write in such a way that is unambiguous as to what you think and feel about a topic. Nobody gets points for being overly melodramatic it's a discussion nothing more.
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i never once said to torture those without judicial review... i said the option should be available.
now, since you know my mind so well.. according to you... you figure out what that means and try and get it right this time.
Judicial review means a judge decides but that’s a kind of chicken and egg nonsense I've already mentioned because you have to prove guilt to some degree to deem it acceptable to torture that person and often you'd be torturing them because you have no real evidence for a judge to review to make such a decision. You have suspicion.
Perhaps your argument is the same as others have said ‘that having the threat of torture as a deterrent can reduce terrorism’. I’d have to then once again point out that this isn’t the case in other countries that condone torture.
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