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RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/16/2009 1:21:59 AM   
islandgyrl


Posts: 37
Joined: 9/8/2008
Status: offline 		Very well stated. I enjoy taking my sub there. He jokes that he is a lesbian born in the wrong body. I believe there may be truth to that statement.
 
Island

(in reply to AnnePrimrose)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/16/2009 2:45:38 AM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		I think AnnePrimrose explained the type of sub for whom "forcing" is appropriate extremely well. However, I have found that most of the boys wanting to CD, are definitely not needing to be forced. They are just about dying to do it! Or they are already doing it when alone, changing into high heels to drive the car, wearing panties and stockings under their trousers etc etc. They want the Domina to pretend to force them and that's not a game I want to get into. It's like playing at making mistakes so I can pretend to be mad and punish ... again, not a dynamic that appeals to Me. If a boy likes to CD then let's be open about it and share it together. But it has to be under My control if he is to be My sub.

However, having been married to a CD I realised that he definitely wasn't sub. For him it was all about his fetish, and not about what I wanted at all. I think too many people equate CD with sub and that's not always appropriate. he was not an isolated case, there were several others in the bdsm community who were all about the clothes, be it CD, school uniforms or even diapers! And from previous posts here in this forum, there are a number of lifestyle Dommes who have been rather jaded by CD subs for whom S & M means "Stand & Model"! So it can make it a bit hard for boys like the OP to find someone who is willing to explore this with them. Another poster had great advice though ... hope to have the need satisfied rather than the want and seek other pleasurable ways to interact with the Domme and you've a much better chance of creating a great relationship.

Btw, count Me in as one who doesn't see CDing as humiliation ... otherwise that's saying that being a woman is humiliating. Perhaps it would be humiliating to dress a big burly guy with a beard up as a girl simply because he'd look so ridiculous ... but it's not something I'd particularly find fun. I'd rather dress him up as a puppy and do puppy play if I want some fun ridiculous play!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

(in reply to islandgyrl)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/16/2009 9:23:42 AM   
AnnePrimrose


Posts: 26
Joined: 8/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

I think AnnePrimrose explained the type of sub for whom "forcing" is appropriate extremely well. However, I have found that most of the boys wanting to CD, are definitely not needing to be forced. They are just about dying to do it! Or they are already doing it when alone, changing into high heels to drive the car, wearing panties and stockings under their trousers etc etc. They want the Domina to pretend to force them and that's not a game I want to get into. It's like playing at making mistakes so I can pretend to be mad and punish ... again, not a dynamic that appeals to Me. If a boy likes to CD then let's be open about it and share it together. But it has to be under My control if he is to be My sub.

However, having been married to a CD I realized that he definitely wasn't sub. For him it was all about his fetish, and not about what I wanted at all. I think too many people equate CD with sub and that's not always appropriate. he was not an isolated case, there were several others in the bdsm community who were all about the clothes, be it CD, school uniforms or even diapers! And from previous posts here in this forum, there are a number of lifestyle Dommes who have been rather jaded by CD subs for whom S & M means "Stand & Model"! So it can make it a bit hard for boys like the OP to find someone who is willing to explore this with them. Another poster had great advice though ... hope to have the need satisfied rather than the want and seek other pleasurable ways to interact with the Domme and you've a much better chance of creating a great relationship.

Btw, count Me in as one who doesn't see CDing as humiliation ... otherwise that's saying that being a woman is humiliating. Perhaps it would be humiliating to dress a big burly guy with a beard up as a girl simply because he'd look so ridiculous ... but it's not something I'd particularly find fun. I'd rather dress him up as a puppy and do puppy play if I want some fun ridiculous play!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]


Violet, I agree with you  about nearly everything you said here.
BTW, I prefer to be called Priscilla or Priscilla Anne.

I carelessly lumped crossdressers together in my post. Those who have already come to some degree of self-acceptance about it seem to need no "forcing" at all, but are only looking for opportunity and an appreciate "audience." Perhaps back when they were first exploring this urge to crossdress they encountered shame and fear inside themselves. I would think so if they were raised to live in the more traditional narrowly defined and tightly enforced (peer-pressure) male gender roles. But once they get past that, as Violet said, they do not require a woman to pressure  them to do it.

As you said, Violet, some CD's enjoy pretending to be forced. From what I have seen, that is an erotic arousal pattern for them.   I have encountered it again and again, and have only met a few CDs who would not discuss anything sexual about themselves at all with me and almost none who outright denied dressing was erotic for them. (But once we are talking about a person who is likely transgendered, there may be some for whom the dressing has less or no directly erotic appeal).   Again, like Violet, being the Dom in  a pretend or "staged" forced crossdressing scenario does not appeal to me. I feel as though someone else has essentially written the entire outline of  a script they want me to read for them.

So yes, again, I agree with Violet that most of the CDs I have encountered were not what I would regard as submissives. Only in their earliest stages of self-exploration might they be in enough conflict to resist their urges and feel a need to have a dominant woman push them along through their shame and fears. That is the only "stage" at which such a person might be fun for me to work with.

On the subject of whether crossdressing a man is humiliating or not. Whether we think a man should feel humiliated to be dressed as we dress is one thing - an ideological, philosophical thing.  Subjectively however,  I think that ultimately, whether it IS humiliating or not for him has to be guaged by the man's response to being cross-dressed. He will feel humiliated or not depending on how strongly he identifies with a narrow male gender role such as  was prescribed by many  WW2 fathers, onto their sons (ie baby boomer aged men). I am not so sure it is as much about women being inferior as it is about it not being ACCEPTABLE (in their minds) for a man to allow himself to be dressed or made to act like a woman.  It's the whole "UNMANLY" thing, more than "women are inferior" thing.  Has to be some of both I suppose, since if being "unmanly" is such a shameful thing, that does imply that the way women are is shameful. But maybe it is only shameful for men if MEN act like women.  There used to be shame about young women being tomboys too. Think about that one. Those girls (me!) were acting more like guys - the supposed "superior" gender, yet it was still a shameful thing in many people's eyes - both in the eyes of men and women..

I am sure the two generations of young men who have come up since the baby -boomer,  include many who were not trained into such a narrow definition of what it means to be male, or to be a man.  I would think for these younger men with less limiting notions of what it means to be a man, it may be less humiliating and even maybe fun, to have someone require them to crossdress.  I don't have much experience at all with younger men.

Again, like Violet, I don't think I would get that much out of making a burly man look ridiculous by putting him in women's clothes.  At a BDSM munch I met a man who had a beard and mustache and told me he was a cross dresser. He showed me pictures and in them he was doing "gender f**k drag" as he called it; in which there was very strong intentional mixing of both male and female attributes. Always with the beard and mustache, while wearing a skirt and nylons for example and that sort of thing. There was simply no place in my brain that I wanted to put this, ha ha! I don't know how else to say it. Maybe for ME, what he was doing seemed to degrade both female and male genders. He did not seem to admire and respect women and want to emulate them as some CDs and the transgendered do. Yet at the same time, he seemed to be ridiculing the classic male dress code. I don't know. I don't know what that was all about. He was a very non-talkative man. I can usually bring out just about anyone when talking one-to-one but this guy was impenetrable so I learned nothing.

Ms Priscilla Anne

(in reply to MaamJay)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/16/2009 9:58:35 AM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		Miss MaamJay and Miss Priscilla Anne, thank you for your insightful thoughts on this somewhat controversial concept and topic.  It is refreshing to read actual thought rather than the usual "not so much" or negative comments that feminization gets.

I do find that in my history it took me some time to be able to "own my kink" and until that time, I was in favor of "being forced" too.  It is a nice concept, but unworkable, unrealistic, and unwise in a real relationship.  We see a lot of guys coming to the CM forums who have spent years denying their authentic desires (and often their authentic selves) and are looking for that "quick fix" concept of force me to step into a D/s relationship.  It is hard to get them to realize that in order for things to really work out in an actual relationship, they have to step away from the fantasy and actually step up to the dressing table (as it were)...  The social stigma around crossdressing for males is intense and denial can cause the whole concept to become highly fetishized making them a one-trick-pony and not frankly worthy, nor ready for a real-time D/s relationship until they are able to face themselves and own their kink.

It is a hard road...


_____________________________

I am on a journey of authenticity and self.

(in reply to AnnePrimrose)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/16/2009 10:05:15 AM   
StellaSupreme


Posts: 22
Joined: 10/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnePrimrose

About "forced feminization":
Sometimes a man has some deep urges  to dress as a woman and express a female nature but at the same time he is mortified by those urges. Ashamed of them. Afraid of what he may become. Maybe even in denial of what he is. (I am not talking about the men who have already embraced this part of themselves and who seek only the erotic arousal that humiliation gives them).  With the guys I am talking about, there may be a genuine female identity lurking inside, (transgendered and not fully knowing it yet) or there may just be that need for periods of time expressing a female aspect of themselves. Or some other reason.  In any of these cases, if a woman takes charge of the situation and requires him to dress and so on, it is much like other subs that want yet fear certain things and only do those things when a Dom requires them to do them.  We could ask at this point, why does the power exchange (ever) work? Perhaps the sub then feels like they are not "responsible" for what is happening and cannot blame themselves or feel as guilty about it because they have surrendered control, surrendered their decision-making power. I am sure there are other theories.  As I think we all know, for the submissive, whether one of these males I am talking about or another kind of sub, having a Dom take them into these areas they do not or can not access by themselves, can be and usually is, an exhilarating experience.



Beautifully stated.

(in reply to AnnePrimrose)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/16/2009 1:26:42 PM   
kccuckoldmist


Posts: 97
Joined: 7/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

I think AnnePrimrose explained the type of sub for whom "forcing" is appropriate extremely well. However, I have found that most of the boys wanting to CD, are definitely not needing to be forced. They are just about dying to do it! Or they are already doing it when alone, changing into high heels to drive the car, wearing panties and stockings under their trousers etc etc. They want the Domina to pretend to force them and that's not a game I want to get into. It's like playing at making mistakes so I can pretend to be mad and punish ... again, not a dynamic that appeals to Me. If a boy likes to CD then let's be open about it and share it together. But it has to be under My control if he is to be My sub.

However, having been married to a CD I realised that he definitely wasn't sub. For him it was all about his fetish, and not about what I wanted at all. I think too many people equate CD with sub and that's not always appropriate. he was not an isolated case, there were several others in the bdsm community who were all about the clothes, be it CD, school uniforms or even diapers! And from previous posts here in this forum, there are a number of lifestyle Dommes who have been rather jaded by CD subs for whom S & M means "Stand & Model"! So it can make it a bit hard for boys like the OP to find someone who is willing to explore this with them. Another poster had great advice though ... hope to have the need satisfied rather than the want and seek other pleasurable ways to interact with the Domme and you've a much better chance of creating a great relationship.

Maam Jay aka violet[A]



I do not do gross generalizations or claim to know the percentages. So all I can say is I am a dominant that enjoys it from a humiliation, degradation and yes power way very much. I quoted Maam Jay as my experience in terms of male subs really into this to be exactly what she wrote about.

My ex was a macho guy who was not into feminization so playing with him in it was pleasure, control and power to be mined. In the winter time I would often force him to shave his legs and wear stockings under his clothes because he hated it in a delicious way for me. So for us forced feminization was actually forced and had positive results.

Men wanting to be feminized are of course not really forced more often then not just wanting a place and time to indulge and have an active audience. There is nothing wrong with that but not something for someone like me to want or be into. To be honest I do not know if I could or could not be with someone like this who is also a great slave. But my personal experiences have been where men really into feminization are not really submissive or looking to serve a Mistress as a person as much as they are looking at a Mistress as almost like an accessory to their personal desires. They maybe submissive but the obsession of the feminization clouds it too much.

This is a lot like I have to deal with when I went looking for a slave who was willing to be cuckold. Many into cuckolding are so focused or obsessed about the one aspect they objectify me and forget people like me are looking for a multi-dimensional submissive man and not a one note man.

(in reply to MaamJay)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/17/2009 3:05:35 AM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		Priscilla, may I say I further agree with You ... sounding like a mutual admiration society here but it is great to read some well thought out comments on this topic. However, I prefer to be called Jay LOL ... violet is my sub side name, so is pretty much the preserve of my Master. I tend to interact here more as My Domme side Jay (especially on this board of course). I've taken to using capitals for Jay and small letters for the occasions when violet gets to put her perspective merely as a tool. Helps Me work out who's in control of the keyboard LOL and hopefully also helps the reader.

I particularly liked Your input on the UNMANLY thing as being more the source of humiliation than specifically being feminine. That's a good take on it and I do think that's the case in a number of CDs I have met. And yes, My sis was a tomboy and there was a fair bit of shame attached to that in her day!

And as Otter later said, while needing to pretend to be forced may be an initial response, it behooves the CD to "grow up" after a while and embrace the femme side more openly and maturely. And if he also wants to be a sub, then it is his submission of that behaviour to his Domme that makes him special. That also frees the Domme to have fun with it, rather than it becoming a millstone around Her neck!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

(in reply to AnnePrimrose)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/19/2009 9:15:52 AM   
AnnePrimrose


Posts: 26
Joined: 8/10/2009
Status: offline

quote:


ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

Miss MaamJay and Miss Priscilla Anne, thank you for your insightful thoughts on this somewhat controversial concept and topic.  It is refreshing to read actual thought rather than the usual "not so much" or negative comments that feminization gets.

I do find that in my history it took me some time to be able to "own my kink" and until that time, I was in favor of "being forced" too.  It is a nice concept, but unworkable, unrealistic, and unwise in a real relationship.  We see a lot of guys coming to the CM forums who have spent years denying their authentic desires (and often their authentic selves) and are looking for that "quick fix" concept of force me to step into a D/s relationship.  It is hard to get them to realize that in order for things to really work out in an actual relationship, they have to step away from the fantasy and actually step up to the dressing table (as it were)...  The social stigma around crossdressing for males is intense and denial can cause the whole concept to become highly fetishized making them a one-trick-pony and not frankly worthy, nor ready for a real-time D/s relationship until they are able to face themselves and own their kink.

It is a hard road...



And I thank you "OtterSwim" because I rarely hear from one such as yourself who has grown so much beyond that stage you have described as "denying their authentic desires/selves" and who is so able to articulate their thoughts and feelings. If you would like to message me or send me some of your writing, I would like to learn more about where your own journey has taken you.

It is my personal belief, (unsubstantiated by any studies as far as I know), that there is something beyond the fetish, something beyond the fantasy, something deeper that drives a CD's desires. I think that is true for pretty much everyone in d/s (but probably not everyone into top/bottom sensation play and role-playing). But with the CD we just seem to find fewer that do indeed get beyond the fantasy and discover the deeper needs /process that is "trying to bring something into fruition."  I wonder why CD/ tranvestites seem to often remain more caught up with only the erotic aspects or only the compartmentalized bit of female expression they allow themselves. I've wondered if it is a kind of "metastable equilibrium" between a rock (self-judgment, shame, societies judgments and the identity they hold up to themselves and to others) and a hard place (ie going further into the self-discover process), I have a Jungian slant on human nature, which postulates a "drive to wholeness" always at work beneath our conscious awareness.

quote:

ORIGINAL: StellaSupreme
Beautifully stated.



Thank you "StellaSupreme". I am generally reluctant to state my views because I do not like to step into controversy and I do have pretty strong opinions, so it is nice to get positive feedback like yours.

I added the boldface and underlining below:
quote:

ORIGINAL: kccuckoldmist

I do not do gross generalizations or claim to know the percentages. ...
...

my personal experiences have been where men really into feminization are not really submissive or looking to serve a Mistress as a person as much as they are looking at a Mistress as almost like an accessory to their personal desires. They maybe submissive but the obsession of the feminization clouds it too much.



Amen to THAT sister!  That word "accessory" really captures the feeling I have had at times.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

Priscilla....
.... it is great to read some well thought out comments on this topic.....

However, I prefer to be called Jay LOL ... violet is my sub side name, so is pretty much the preserve of my Master.
....
Maam Jay aka violet[A]


Thank you Jay. I want to reflect this back to you and many others that have added real substance to this thread topic. As one of you stated - this is a topic not often treated with much insight or depth. Just the other day someone messaged me that my writing reminded him of Ms Elise Sutton, so I checked to see what she has said about this topic. I did not find her treatment to be as broad or as deep as what we have collectively compiled here.

Jay, my apologies for my error about your name.












(in reply to MaamJay)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/20/2009 4:11:20 AM   
iwearpanties


Posts: 509
Joined: 7/21/2005
Status: offline 		as a long time submisve male here . i would too say this has been one of the best threads on cding , panty wearing , crosdressing , feminzation . many times in the past this type of posting was buried down with shaming or putting down this fetish as a weak or justa plan ole dump thing to do for a male sub . BUT ladies i have loved reading this post so much thk you all for getting involed and shareing as much as you all have thnk you .  in closeing i fully understand and have noticed the trme force used way too much when you seek hell it cant be forced .   But  if you as a sub see it as Forced Femming on those pro Mistress / Pay sites i guess the idea stays in the submisves / cders head that its realy forced ????? 

(in reply to AnnePrimrose)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/20/2009 1:26:26 PM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kccuckoldmist


quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

I think AnnePrimrose explained the type of sub for whom "forcing" is appropriate extremely well. However, I have found that most of the boys wanting to CD, are definitely not needing to be forced. They are just about dying to do it! Or they are already doing it when alone, changing into high heels to drive the car, wearing panties and stockings under their trousers etc etc. They want the Domina to pretend to force them and that's not a game I want to get into. It's like playing at making mistakes so I can pretend to be mad and punish ... again, not a dynamic that appeals to Me. If a boy likes to CD then let's be open about it and share it together. But it has to be under My control if he is to be My sub.

However, having been married to a CD I realised that he definitely wasn't sub. For him it was all about his fetish, and not about what I wanted at all. I think too many people equate CD with sub and that's not always appropriate. he was not an isolated case, there were several others in the bdsm community who were all about the clothes, be it CD, school uniforms or even diapers! And from previous posts here in this forum, there are a number of lifestyle Dommes who have been rather jaded by CD subs for whom S & M means "Stand & Model"! So it can make it a bit hard for boys like the OP to find someone who is willing to explore this with them. Another poster had great advice though ... hope to have the need satisfied rather than the want and seek other pleasurable ways to interact with the Domme and you've a much better chance of creating a great relationship.

Maam Jay aka violet[A]



I do not do gross generalizations or claim to know the percentages. So all I can say is I am a dominant that enjoys it from a humiliation, degradation and yes power way very much. I quoted Maam Jay as my experience in terms of male subs really into this to be exactly what she wrote about.

My ex was a macho guy who was not into feminization so playing with him in it was pleasure, control and power to be mined. In the winter time I would often force him to shave his legs and wear stockings under his clothes because he hated it in a delicious way for me. So for us forced feminization was actually forced and had positive results.

Men wanting to be feminized are of course not really forced more often then not just wanting a place and time to indulge and have an active audience. There is nothing wrong with that but not something for someone like me to want or be into. To be honest I do not know if I could or could not be with someone like this who is also a great slave. But my personal experiences have been where men really into feminization are not really submissive or looking to serve a Mistress as a person as much as they are looking at a Mistress as almost like an accessory to their personal desires. They maybe submissive but the obsession of the feminization clouds it too much.

This is a lot like I have to deal with when I went looking for a slave who was willing to be cuckold. Many into cuckolding are so focused or obsessed about the one aspect they objectify me and forget people like me are looking for a multi-dimensional submissive man and not a one note man.



kccuckoldmist, I think you explained it perfectly! It seems that so few understand the concept of "forced" anything, because they view the specific activity as the sub male's desire or fetish, rather than the dominant woman's coercion and control. As you say, a sub who desires, and is obsessed with the activity, be it cross-dressing, cuckolding, spanking, whatever, is a completely different animal from one who is seduced by a dominant woman's control when she coerces him into the activity. It's so refreshing to hear from someone else who "gets it", particularly someone from the "other side" of the coin.

(in reply to kccuckoldmist)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/20/2009 1:31:41 PM   
DePubed


Posts: 71
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline 		Regarding "Forced Feminization" it has been my experience that the old saying is true : "You can't 'force' the willing".
It can be insulting for a Dom to be told "I have a fetish to be feminized, I enjoy it, I crave, it I want it, I like it, I will do it anyway, so NOW FORCIBLY FEMINIZE ME!".
It is actually somewat pathetic because it calls for both people to 'pretend' to an extent where it can be delusional.

(in reply to islandgyrl)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/20/2009 1:56:53 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		hardbodysub, if it's about the lady's control, about coercing him into doing her will, then why are they so focused on exactly *what* she'll "make" him do, how she'll feel about it, etc.? It feels like a movie script, with the submissive as the scriptwriter, director, and star!

(in reply to DePubed)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/20/2009 2:02:57 PM   
pinnipedster


Posts: 217
Joined: 4/17/2008
Status: offline 		First off, let me say that I'm not trying to tell anyone what they ought to like.  Years ago, on an email discussion list, a Mistress asked me why she "should" like playing with crossdressing/feminization.  I think that's the wrong question.  I can't explain why you "should" like any kind of BDSM play.  It either appeals to you, or it doesn't.  So if a Mistress is not turned on by feminization at all, or doesn't see the value in it, then by all means, don't play that way. 

However, there are a couple of points that do occur to me.

First off, since all of us advocate consensual play, the whole idea of "forced" is a bit of a misnomer.  But we frequently use "willing submission" or the illusion of force/coercion/non-consensuality in all of our play.   You don't put someone into bondage or whip them or use CBT on them "against their will" really either.  There is the old joke about the best way to torture a masochist being *not* to hurt him. :)  But few dominants object to whipping their subs on the grounds that the sub actually craves it.  They may realize it's not a real "punishment," but they still work it into the scene somehow.\

Also, of course, the fact that some of us crave bondage, pain, humiliation, etc.  doesn't mean that we don't have a kind of love/hate, desire/fear reaction -- that is part of the thrill, I think.  Sure, I want you to tie me up, but once you have, that doesn't mean I don't have a gut fear of what might happen.  You might leave me in bondage much longer than I like, or torture me more intensely, or subject me to something I didn't ask for -- and while I have the option of safewording, even if I trust the person completely, there's still a gut fear. 

I would like someone who deals with my crossdressing the same way.  Yes, I like to cross-dress and do it willingly, and in completely non-kinky situations.  But that doesn't mean I don't still have some fears associated with it -- and of course, then there's just plain laziness.

I'd love to find someone who insisted that, if I'm going to dress, I meet *her* standards of appearance, grooming, and behavior, even if they go beyond (or at least are different from) what I would normally choose.  Who might dress me in outfits I would not normally pick.  Who would perhaps insist I go places dressed that I've always wanted to go, but never have out of fear.  Of course I wouldn't want her to push me too hard, too fast -- doing things that would put me in serious danger of getting arrested or attacked -- but certainly she could push me further than I'd go on my own.  Someone who might use my desires to her benefit: for example, who would insist that any time I dress up, I can't rest or go out till the house is spotless.  She could use it as a reward in some ways, a punishment in others, after learning my reactions.  She could make me play roles that I might not initially be comfortable with.  She could, frankly, build me into a whole new persona (or several) to her liking. 

That's the kind of thing I am looking for.  No, of course just dressing as a woman isn't, for me, humiliating -- but that doesn't mean it couldn't be used in humiliating or controlling ways.

Alternatively, I wouldn't mind finding a woman, or a couple, who simply treated me exactly as they would treat a female submissive (in so far as is anatomically possible).  I know some people don't seem to understand when I say this, but I identify far more with female submissives than male ones; I think my personality suits that role better.  Having someone just accept me that way would be terrific.



< Message edited by pinnipedster -- 9/20/2009 2:11:13 PM >

(in reply to DePubed)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/20/2009 2:18:59 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		I am personally fine with the cross-dressing, it's the "forced" aspect that seems strange to me. I enjoy consensual force in my play sometimes, but I associate that more with consensual physical violence, manhandling, hairpulling, take-downs, stuff like that. As far as I can tell, the guys aren't looking to be wrestled into a hold, struggling to get away while their Mistress attempts to dress them, like this!

I think I do understand what you mean about treating female submissives differently than men. I enjoy different types of things with my playpartner, and do lots of yoga stretches and similar forms of restraint. Women seem a little more fragile than men, in general. There are a lot of emotional differences as well, but they're more difficult to put into words.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 9/20/2009 2:33:00 PM >

(in reply to pinnipedster)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/20/2009 2:32:09 PM   
pinnipedster


Posts: 217
Joined: 4/17/2008
Status: offline 		Well, I have tried to introduced the term "Enforced Feminization" -- slightly different.  Compare it to enforced chastity.  You probably didn't wrestle your sub to the ground or hold a gun on him to get him into that CB2000 -- but once he's in it, the power is in your hands.  Similarly, you might not have to use any kind of real force or coercion to get me into a dress and make-up -- but then if you take me out somewhere without a change of clothes, or lock up all my male clothing in a trunk and go away for the weekend, then you're in a position to decide when/if I get to change back.  And while I might have been happy to dress up for dinner Friday night, I might have more anxiety if you then tell me I'm going to have to stay a girl till Monday morning, or till I've completed some task to your satisfaction, or that you're taking me to a party full of strangers, or whatever. 

Another way I've put it personally is to say that I want to be Cinderella, and to find someone who'd be my Evil Stepmother and Fairy Godmother rolled into one.  Most of the time I'd be waiting on her hand and foot (how I dress for this being negotiable)  -- but now and then, when she feels I deserve it, she dresses me up like a princess as a treat.  Handled right, that could be a pretty powerful motivating force...

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/20/2009 4:04:19 PM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

hardbodysub, if it's about the lady's control, about coercing him into doing her will, then why are they so focused on exactly *what* she'll "make" him do, how she'll feel about it, etc.? It feels like a movie script, with the submissive as the scriptwriter, director, and star!


You missed the point, totally. "They" aren't all like that. Please re-read kccuckoldmist's post and mine. You're talking about one type, and ignoring the other.

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/21/2009 8:26:33 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		You're probably correct, but all of the ones I encountered via e-mail when I was looking a few months ago were in that category, and I'm very suspicious of it if *he* brings up that he wants to be forced, rather than it being my idea. Anyway, I just plain don't see prancing around the house in panties or a dress to be particularly humiliating. If someone says he *wants* to be humiliated with cross-dressing, I might be willing to play along. For example, the guy who posted here recently, wanting a "humiliating feminisation shopping list/orders." I told him to dress like a frumpy woman and go out and buy tampons, a cucumber, and a package of prunes. I wasn't actually serious, but if I had a male submissive who specifically requested humiliation, I might order him to do something similar, or enter a drag queen contest, or something like that. Calling him a "pantyboy" just strikes me as absurd - *I'd* be embarrassed to carry on like that! The whole "forced feminisation" thing has inspired/tempted me to try to wrestle my female submissive into panty-hose and opera length gloves while she fends me off, though. Of course, she's very feminine already, it just tickles my funny bone.

Generally speaking, the guys I've feminised/facilitated cross-dressing for in the past have been very eager to do so, and initiated it. A couple of my boyfriends have put up with me spontaneously deciding to apply polish to their finger or toenails, putting their hair up in a scrunchie in a "valley-girl-esque" hair style, or otherwise doing goofy things to them, that they wouldn't have asked for. If they'd had serious objections, I probably would have backed off - it's not a major need for me, more being a little silly. I suppose that falls under the umbrella of "forced feminisation," but there wasn't any verbal humiliation involved, and it was *my* idea, not theirs.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 9/21/2009 8:31:40 AM >

(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/21/2009 10:07:03 AM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

You're probably correct, but all of the ones I encountered via e-mail when I was looking a few months ago were in that category, and I'm very suspicious of it if *he* brings up that he wants to be forced, rather than it being my idea. Anyway, I just plain don't see prancing around the house in panties or a dress to be particularly humiliating. If someone says he *wants* to be humiliated with cross-dressing, I might be willing to play along. For example, the guy who posted here recently, wanting a "humiliating feminisation shopping list/orders." I told him to dress like a frumpy woman and go out and buy tampons, a cucumber, and a package of prunes. I wasn't actually serious, but if I had a male submissive who specifically requested humiliation, I might order him to do something similar, or enter a drag queen contest, or something like that. Calling him a "pantyboy" just strikes me as absurd - *I'd* be embarrassed to carry on like that! The whole "forced feminisation" thing has inspired/tempted me to try to wrestle my female submissive into panty-hose and opera length gloves while she fends me off, though. Of course, she's very feminine already, it just tickles my funny bone.

Generally speaking, the guys I've feminised/facilitated cross-dressing for in the past have been very eager to do so, and initiated it. A couple of my boyfriends have put up with me spontaneously deciding to apply polish to their finger or toenails, putting their hair up in a scrunchie in a "valley-girl-esque" hair style, or otherwise doing goofy things to them, that they wouldn't have asked for. If they'd had serious objections, I probably would have backed off - it's not a major need for me, more being a little silly. I suppose that falls under the umbrella of "forced feminisation," but there wasn't any verbal humiliation involved, and it was *my* idea, not theirs.


I think this can be true for ALL submissive fantasies/desires however; many femdoms want/need/lust for a level of control and manipulation and coercion that simply is not possible if a submissive is not only blatantly eager, but downright pushy about his fantasies.  It always comes back to the point femdoms are always making:  Treat her like a lady first, and let her take the lead when it comes to kink.   This stumbling block is the single biggest reason I dated/courting more vanilla non/kinky guys when I got burnt out on subs - I liked the lust of being in control, of seeing real uncertainty and having a man surrender to kinks on my terms, not his.

Something is simply lost the moment a submissive poorly times a "suggestion" or a 'fantasy' or a wish list; as femdoms, we generally are not shy about peeling the onion at our own pace and using the delicious information to take the boy for a kinky ride when the time is right. And it's so much more enjoyable when the woman truly is in charge!

I'm absolutely on cloud nine over a submissive who has, to date, never presented/pushed/hinted at his fantasies with me, sometimes so much that I have to step aside and go, "wait a minute. are you EVEN KINKY or are you just doing this for me?"  And undeniably, he is kinky. He just is quietly mysterious about his kinks (and a little shy) and allows me the freedom to explore his mind and vulnerabilities at my pace.  It's that lack of pushy urgency that makes him so wholly attractive as a man and a submissive.   And he does it flawlessly and without effort, so it's clear he's not being manipulative -

So the question for subs is simply  - can you let the lady really take control of your fantasies on ALL levels?

Akasha


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RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/21/2009 10:39:23 AM   
pinnipedster


Posts: 217
Joined: 4/17/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
I'm absolutely on cloud nine over a submissive who has, to date, never presented/pushed/hinted at his fantasies with me, sometimes so much that I have to step aside and go, "wait a minute. are you EVEN KINKY or are you just doing this for me?"  And undeniably, he is kinky. He just is quietly mysterious about his kinks (and a little shy) and allows me the freedom to explore his mind and vulnerabilities at my pace.  It's that lack of pushy urgency that makes him so wholly attractive as a man and a submissive.   And he does it flawlessly and without effort, so it's clear he's not being manipulative -

So the question for subs is simply  - can you let the lady really take control of your fantasies on ALL levels?



No.  Next question? :)

This really is a quandry for a lot of us.  On the one hand, letting the lady be in control is a powerful fantasy in and of itself.  And I have to say that, in the experience of play I have had -- not extensive, admittedly, but some hours -- there have been only a couple of instances where the woman has simply said "You're doing this" without preamble or discussion or consultation, and they were incredibly hot (even though the particular things I was told to do were not, in themselves, that erotic to me).  I made that known to the ladies involved later, too, but for the most part, they remained seemingly reluctant to push me anywhere that I might not want to go. 

But at the same time -- well, for example, I have very powerful fantasies about a woman who had no idea I liked crossdressing decide she was going to dress me up.  But I could wait my entire life without that happening.  (I've heard people claim that even vanilla women like dressing guys up, but that is not borne out by any experience I've had.)  The same is true with regards to my other wants/needs in these areas. There are a lot of things that would be ten times as erotic if a woman did them to me spontaneously, without my ever having mentioned them -- but  waiting for them to happen without prompting is a pretty risky proposition.  So...what to do?

It seems to me that the best compromise arrangement would be one where the lady and I thoroughly discussed our respective fantasies ahead of time; but that once she took control, that was it.   I do want to get some of my fantasies fulfilled, or I wouldn't be here.  But letting her decide exactly when, where, and how is not only acceptable -- it's kind of part of the fantasy in the first place.

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Sissification/Feminization/Forced Fem - 9/21/2009 2:07:59 PM   
kccuckoldmist


Posts: 97
Joined: 7/1/2009
Status: offline 		As I think the brilliant AAkasha wrote to the heart of the matter it is the control. Dominants want active control in our relationships. Men pushing a thing on us goes against that very much. I am not going to be drawn to a man that has his life detailed in such a specific way he wants to live that I cease having control but mostly it is being replaced by expectations and demands by a male submissive.

In terms of feminization, finding a female dominant who enjoys a male submissive who also including to his submissiveness likes a feminized one and works with him would be best for many males that feminization and going to a pretty sever level is important to them.

You can get caught up in a definition fight between force and how it is used in this life and enforced but we are pretty much all on the same page. I did force feminization on my ex from time to time and while not something he wanted he did most certainly enjoy the affects of what was done. As a dominant some things done can have mutual pure enjoyment, sometimes mutual and sometimes just one person’s enjoyment and depending on the things or what is done within those things can be different from one time to the next.

A happy sub is a good and obedient sub. Many of the things done in the power dynamic of a relationship including the kinky things done can either give energy and enjoyment to a dominant and/or submissive or take energy away. It is crucial as a dominant to know what gives and takes energy from their sub and for a sub it is critical to not expect everything to be a enjoyable thing and for the dominant to feel they can be free from this constraint. At the same time a dominant must sometimes, hopefully out of feelings for their guy, do things that will take energy but make their sub purr to help feed their sub and go toward their happiness.

But there is a big difference from taking control away from a Mistress and letting her monitor what is best for both of you. Coming into a relationship where a male slave has very specific thing they want done like being feminized on an ongoing and significant way is not a fetish or just kinky thing to do for fun but a compatibility thing and not really any different then where you want to live or other basic compatibility things.



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(in reply to pinnipedster)
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