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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 5:45:24 PM

tazzygirl

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The point is simple. at least for me.

Until one side or the other can prove their assertations about God, then religion will continue to thrive as it has for over 2000 years ( the christianity part anyways).

Another point i should make.... not everyone is as hard core in their beliefs as atheists want, or wish, to believe.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 6:04:36 PM

luckydawg

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can I agree with and modify what you just said,.... not everyone is as hard core in their beliefs as religous want, or wish, to believe

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 6:06:03 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I made the assertion that atheism is a belief system.

You countered that it is a single belief.

I then asked you if you believed that such a single belief had no effect on other beliefs that a person may hold.

Then you get all pissy, insulting and defensive?! This is a "semantic contortion" on my part, somehow, eh?

How about just answering the question?

No, you did not ask me if i believed that. What you did was claim that I had already answered it, and tried to support your claim by quoting an earlier post that you felt (or claim to have felt) supported your interpretation. That's not the same thing, and you know it. Don't play the misunderstood innocent, and spare me the faux hurt feelings.

But. Since you ask so nicely now, the answer is no - of course I don't believe that. Your move.

As an aside, you said:

... because it erroneously describes a single belief as a belief system.

I then asked you:

So you believe that an "unbelief" in a divine being stands absolutely alone in a person? It has no effect on any other beliefs that they may have, nor in how they view the world, and how it operates?

Those punctuation marks after both sentences are question marks.

***

Ok ... so you agree that the belief "in the absence of the divine" has an impact in an individual's other beliefs, and in their world view ... but do not accept that atheism is a belief system? Do we have differing definitions of "belief system"? Where is our disconnect?

Firm

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Post #: 203

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 6:18:49 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

can I agree with and modify what you just said,.... not everyone is as hard core in their beliefs as religous want, or wish, to believe

oh, i can agree with that as well. but i have to ask. when did i ask anyone to believe as i do? heck, i havent even explained what i believed. yet i have seen where what i believe may be considered fantasy, fanatical, extreme, sheep-like, ect.

so, i ask again. to all the atheists.

how much do you know about religion from a personal standpoint of exploration and research... and how much of it have you been told?

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Post #: 204

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 7:37:20 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

Until one side or the other can prove their assertations about God

Burden of proof is on the party making the claim (i.e., that there's a god).

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Post #: 205

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 7:39:14 PM

tazzygirl

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Both sides are making claims.

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Post #: 206

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 7:43:11 PM

Musicmystery

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Not arguing this. It's a basic logical point. Demanding proof of a negative is inappropriate. Burden of proof is on the one making the claim--the positive claim.

Look it up if you don't believe it.

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Post #: 207

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 7:48:55 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Not arguing this. It's a basic logical point. Demanding proof of a negative is inappropriate. Burden of proof is on the one making the claim--the positive claim.

Look it up if you don't believe it.

So to clarify, if I started a thread called "god does not exist", that would be inappropriate or does that mean I could make the thread and it would be up to the religous to prove they were right and I was wrong?

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 7:52:22 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

So to clarify, if I started a thread called "god does not exist", that would be inappropriate or does that mean I could make the thread and it would be up to the religous to prove they were right and I was wrong?

Oh, I see your point.

Yes, it should be "there's no proof god exists," which is a very different statement.

And starting a thread to discuss something just to say it isn't would be, in my opinion, pointless.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 9/8/2009 7:53:21 PM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 7:58:03 PM

chiaThePet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Until one side or the other can prove their assertations about God

Burden of proof is on the party making the claim (i.e., that there's a god).

Interesting.

Some 40 individuals give a written account in some 66 books in the Old and New Testament.

But we're still playing in the mud.

Interesting.

chia* (the pet)

< Message edited by chiaThePet -- 9/8/2009 8:01:12 PM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 8:04:07 PM

tazzygirl

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I did Master Tim. would not either argument fall into the following?

The argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam ("appeal to ignorance" [1]), argument by lack of imagination, or negative evidence, is a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false, or is false only because it has not been proven true.

The argument from personal incredulity, also known as argument from personal belief or argument from personal conviction, refers to an assertion that because one personally finds a premise unlikely or unbelievable, the premise can be assumed to be false, or alternatively that another preferred but unproven premise is true instead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

"or is false only because it has not been proven true"

this is saying to me that because Religion cannot prove beyond a doubt that god exists, then he doesnt exist. which is a fallacy, according to this definition.

i didnt ask either side to prove or disprove. i merely said that until one can, there is that grey area.

This may help as well.

http://www.scottmsullivan.com/articles/burden.pdf

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Post #: 211

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 8:12:33 PM

Musicmystery

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And I agree. Lack of evidence--for either argument--does not constitute proof.

Where I differ with previous posters is that doubting for lack of evidence doesn't equal a belief.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 9/8/2009 8:13:45 PM >

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Post #: 212

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 8:14:21 PM

tazzygirl

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agreed Master Tim. The conclusion drawn by the second link, i believe, is the best stance to take.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Post #: 213

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 8:16:39 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And I agree. Lack of evidence--for either argument--does not constitute proof.

Where I differ with previous posters is that doubting for lack of evidence doesn't equal a belief.

Yet they are staunch in that belief of an absence of god. which in itself, to me, is a belief in something, shared by many.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 214

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 8:19:27 PM

Musicmystery

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Sigh.

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Post #: 215

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 8:24:11 PM

thishereboi

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Pleasant dreams sir

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Post #: 216

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 8:28:51 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Sigh.

grins

no need to sigh, Master Tim. i said to me, i can see why they say that. it really matters not to me, as neither side could sway my own personal beliefs. nor do i attempt to sway anyone elses. im open to all sides, and try to listen with an open mind.

perhaps we need to contact the dictionary companies and have them change their definitions?

quote:

a⋅the⋅ism /ˈeɪθiˌɪzəm/

Use atheism in a Sentence
See web results for atheism
See images of atheism
–noun 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism

but, i do like this one reference.... hmmm... makes me ponder about our posting atheists here...

quote:

In any debate, the burden of proof is properly on the person making a claim, of course. You say something is true, so you are the one who must demonstrate its truth. A typical atheist makes no claim about God, and he has no obligation to prove the non-existence of a god

.

http://www.999ideas.com/atheism-not-a-belief.html

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 9/8/2009 8:42:16 PM >

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Post #: 217

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 8:47:30 PM

krosiema

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

So to clarify, if I started a thread called "god does not exist", that would be inappropriate or does that mean I could make the thread and it would be up to the religous to prove they were right and I was wrong?

Oh, I see your point.

Yes, it should be "there's no proof god exists," which is a very different statement.

And starting a thread to discuss something just to say it isn't would be, in my opinion, pointless.

Atheism is the belief that "no god exists".

The belief that "there is no proof god exists" would be agnosticism.

These two are quite different even though people who believe in god seem to regard them as the same. I am personally (apathetic) agnostic and my best friend is atheist. We get into arguments all the time about the possible existence of a higher being.

As they are different things, the second is not a proof of the first. Atheism is as much a belief without scientific proof of the world around them as any religion with a deity or deities.

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Post #: 218

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 9:38:22 PM

Musicmystery

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Whatthefuckever.

Call it a religion. Enjoy.

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Post #: 219

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/9/2009 11:06:00 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
you said in the previous post...

quote:

I'll simply maintain people should avoid organised thought and doing things in it's name when there has been no realistic scrutiny of it.

Could not the same be said about atheism?

Yes exactly, I'm no great supporter of atheism. People should be a bit more imaginative about what is possible.

quote:

So many i have spoken too honestly say they have no idea about religion.. just that they believe there is no god.. so they stop there. If they have no idea, have they really scrutinized religion?

I'd say most people are the other way around in that they look at the answers religion has offered and they have decided there is no god based on those now defunct religious truths. I don't need to disprove religion because it contradicts itself. I believe that if a god is capable of creating the universe it would easily be able to give a message to human beings so clear and concise that it can't be misinterpreted. If a god wants humans to live a certain way the instruction book to how they live is key to them being able to do this. God just does not care to present a clear message it seems so living as he says in a murky text is not my priority.

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