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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 1:24:11 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
So you believe that an "unbelief" in a divine being stands absolutely alone in a person? It has no effect on any other beliefs that they may have, nor in how they view the world, and how it operates?

So here we go again with the childish semantic contortions. Who could have ever seen this coming?

In answer to your question - can you show me where I said that? .

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

... and second, because it erroneously describes a single belief as a belief system.

As to your other point:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

First of all, because it presumes (illogically) that an absence of belief in god must necessarily have a basis in scientific belief;

If atheism isn't based on either logic or science ... what is the basis of the disbelief in a divine?

Firm

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 1:27:04 PM

FirmhandKY

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ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

I don't think it is correct to say atheism is based on science, since science will always propose a theory and set about finding a way to prove or disprove it. This isn't at all common to atheism; with atheism a theory is put forward but no real attempts are made to prove or disprove it i.e. just like religion. There is nothing other than ‘the power of logic and reasoning’ offered up as proof.

To compare either atheism or any other belief system to science is an insult to a scientist open-minded enough to think of what an answer could be and moral enough to accept it was the wrong assumption given the result of the test conducted (if that is the case) i.e. even if you are proven wrong you learn something. Agnosticism is based on science. I.e. let us only ask the question if the answer can be found theoretically through maths or in practice through experimentation.

Well reasoned.

So what is the basis for the belief in Atheism?

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 1:38:43 PM

TurboJugend

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evolution

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 1:51:37 PM

NorthernGent

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No. Atheism is the undermining of a belief i.e. religion.

An atheist can be quite militant about this but that doesn't render it a religion. Atheism can't be verified but observation suggests that god is probably false and in this sense Atheism is more in tune with science and the idea that a proposition is only significant where it can be verified.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 1:53:53 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Well reasoned.

So what is the basis for the belief in Atheism?

Firm

Every atheist has their own specific basis for believing there is no god but some common themes crop up:

1) Why should we prove or disprove something there is no evidence for the existence of e.g. you wouldn't try to prove this 'ludicrous thing exists'
2) Look at all the bad things that happen in the world, if god is all seeing and all knowing but allows evil to exist why? If this is the burden of freewill then why create freewill that allows people to commit evil and then judge them for it, logically all evil is thus his fault and he can only judge himself.
3) Can god create something so heavy that he can't lift it? If he can't lift everything he is not god if he can't create something that can't be lifted by god he is not god. (Paradox of the stone)
4) God exists only because people need comfort for their uncertain fears regarding death.

For all of the above there is a counter argument, paradox of the stone is probably the hardest to counter because either way it shows gods power is limited or restricted to that of another. Probably this is why people justified many gods rather than one i.e. gods with different domains of power.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 9/8/2009 1:59:46 PM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 1:56:36 PM

Brain

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I am not interested in Buddhism so ask one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I am an atheist because there is no evidence of God.

Is a Buddhist an atheist?

Firm

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 2:10:21 PM

Brain

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Fortunately, we are no longer primitive and today we can explain many of these things and in the past that was impossible. It used to be if you were sick with epilepsy you would go to a priest for a exorcism. Today you would go to a doctor because seeing a priest for epilepsy is ridiculous! You need to keep up with your science and stop believing in fairy tales like religion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: a100010001000

No evidence of God.

That is classic. Look at the stars, the flowers, the individual ice crystals in a snowflake, the clouds, the impossible odds that all the elements would come together to form a planet the exact distance to a sun to promote life as it is.

The fool has said in his heart "There is no God." - Proverbs

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 2:20:19 PM

tazzygirl

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Brain, that is why we have scientists... to keep up with the science.

And we have people who keep up with health care.

And we have people who keep up with politics.

And we have people who keep up with finances, ect, ect, ect.

And we have people who keep up with faith.

Now, my belief is one that would be extremely unpopular. But, in all honesty, what harm does it do to you or anyone else if he chooses to believe in what he said? Can he convince you that he is right? Can he change your belief in the absence of god? Can he convert you to his "religion"?

if the answer is "no", then you are doing little more than discriminating against him as the gays were discriminated against. They could not convert a man who was straight, unless he wished to be. The same is true about those who believe in religions. They cannot convert anyone, yet, seems they are facing the hostility of discrimination from those who are yelling discrimination the loudest.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 2:28:27 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

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The difference is when the religion takes stands on real world issues which in inevitably does. Also the whole point of Christianity is to share the love of Jesus Christ. i.e. convincing people of a story not known to be anything more than fiction. I would call someone that says ground up tiger teeth helps your libido just as ignorant as someone that tells people condoms don’t help to prevent the spread of HIV. People can choose to be ignorant of reality but when they start shaping other people’s views that way it needs a counter voice.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 9/8/2009 2:29:22 PM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 2:29:33 PM

tazzygirl

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Science is the counter voice.

That voice doesnt need to be belittling.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 2:38:00 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

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A faith so strong can't be crushed no matter how harsh the words so the real question is why don't they just turn the other cheek? People are entitled to their faith but they have to realise the faith of one is just as valid as the faith of a movement of billions. The answers in your own head can’t be disproven any more than the answers in the head of the pope. I’m for diversity of belief not policing how a god should be thought of or restricting how people can commune with that god, god needs a go between for confessions of the soul, why?

I loathe religion because it is about power and control it simply disgusts me and I really couldn't put it less strongly than that.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 9/8/2009 2:45:01 PM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 2:44:26 PM

tazzygirl

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Let me ask you this, because you brought it up. Since i dont know about most religions, yet i have some understanding of christianity, lets take that for a bit of discussion.

You made the following comment...

quote:

Also the whole point of Christianity is to share the love of Jesus Christ. i.e. convincing people of a story not known to be anything more than fiction.

One, you say thats the "whole point". Are you sure? and two. you also say the "story", which is the bible, is a "story not known to be anything more than fiction. Are you sure on that point as well?

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 2:45:57 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

A faith so strong can't be crushed no matter how harsh the words so the real question is why don't they just turn the other cheek? People are entitled to their faith but they have to realise the faith of one is just as valid as the faith of a movement of billions. The answers in your own head can’t be disproven any more than the answers in the head of the pope. I’m for diversity of belief not policing how a god should be thought of or restricting how people can commune with that god, god needs a go between for confessions of the soul, why?

I loathe religion because it is about power and control it simply disgusts me and I really couldn't put it less strongly than that.

quote:

I’m for diversity of belief not policing how a god should be thought of or restricting how people can commune with that god, god needs a go between for confessions of the soul, why?

Thats the belief of catholics, not all religions.

quote:

I loathe religion because it is about power and control it simply disgusts me and I really couldn't put it less strongly than that.

Many things are about control and power... politics.. wealth... healthcare... businesses.

Not every religion is based upon power or control.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 9/8/2009 2:47:25 PM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 2:58:50 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
One, you say thats the "whole point". Are you sure?

I asked someone once, not being an expert, why they have to spread the faith i.e. there are churches everywhere and other religious buildings why not let people pick and choose. The answer I got was that it was part of their faith to spread the message of Christianity. So I don't know maybe I'm wrong in which case someone that considered them self a Christian is also wrong.

quote:

and two. you also say the "story", which is the bible, is a "story not known to be anything more than fiction. Are you sure on that point as well?

Unless you've found a way for a human to part the waves and walk across the river bed I'd say at least parts of it are. Also the earth clearly wasn't built in six days: Let there be light and there was light but which of the many light bulb like stars did he turn on first? I have this problem in my office: thousands of switches but not sure which one is for the light near where I sit.

The shroud and other such artefacts could prove some of the stories but that is like saying finding the titanic at the bottom of the Atlantic ocean proves Jack was able to help Rose escape by jumping off the stern of the ship. You can't substantiate all that is in the bible from a few artefacts.

quote:

I’m for diversity of belief not policing how a god should be thought of or restricting how people can commune with that god, god needs a go between for confessions of the soul, why?
quote:

Thats the belief of catholics, not all religions.

My point regarding that was: all it took to create a whole new branch of that religion was an earth bound king.

I'm agnostic: do I think there is a creator? Yes it is possible. Do I think anyone on this earth has the right answers regarding this issue? It is more unlikely someone does have the right answer the more people think alike and that is my only point.

finished editing now. attack attack

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 9/8/2009 3:19:23 PM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 3:19:01 PM

tazzygirl

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I think there are more than just artifacts. Rulers and Kings, historically, were accurate. The Romans owning the jews was also true and recorded. There is alot of historical accuracy in the Bible. And there is alot of inaccuracies. But, based upon a book that has been around 2000 years.... hmmm... lots of interesting things are found. Many things there were what i consider to be impossible. Then again, didnt they say the Walls of Jericho didnt fall as the bible said? and didnt they say the 5 cities... well.... i will let you discover that on your own. But there has been research done.... the following link discusses some of them. But, like everything else, read it with a grain of salt. Dont believe... dont disbelieve... instead... research and draw your own conclusions. Else, you are merely following what someone else told you. Not much better than what you say you hate about religion.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread163024/pg1

I dont know your friend... but i can say that many would disagree with what your friend said was the main purpose of the Bible.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 3:20:16 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
One, you say thats the "whole point". Are you sure?

I asked someone once, not being an expert, why they ...

No offense, as I complimented you earlier on one of your post, but this particular answer - and much of what flowed from it - doesn't show much concern or care about the actual facts or the beliefs of religions.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 3:24:04 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I am an atheist because there is no evidence of God.

Is a Buddhist an atheist?

I am not interested in Buddhism so ask one.

My point was that you claim to be an atheist due to your scientific belief system, yet there are atheist who hold beliefs based on something other than "science". So how do you square that circle?

Perhaps you can't, or have never considered the issue. I'm not challenging, I'm asking.

You are the third person I've asked this same basic question to. You ducked it, Panda hasn't responded, and I'm still digesting SL4V3M4YB3's response.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 9/8/2009 3:26:19 PM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 3:29:00 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

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You tell me then

What is the whole point? To spread tolerance of homosexuality. To reduce the spread of HIV in Africa. I won’t even mention stem cell research since it is now a sin to manipulate DNA.

I look at what results from something and if I see more negative effects than positive I decide on that basis.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 3:31:53 PM

tazzygirl

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And like with politics, you are seeing what you are shown, what you are allowed to see. There is so much more.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 3:36:49 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

You tell me then

What is the whole point? To spread tolerance of homosexuality. To reduce the spread of HIV in Africa. I won’t even mention stem cell research since it is now a sin to manipulate DNA.

I look at what results from something and if I see more negative effects than positive I decide on that basis.

Well, I guess I'd ask you why you believe that all of the things you mentioned in your above cited post are against "religion"?

There are religions which teach the very things you mention, or which do not oppose any of them. Even branches of the Christian religion.

I guess, what I'm saying is that your data set (and perhaps experience) is pretty small to be making grand pronouncements about "religion", and why it's "all (mostly?) bad" while being an atheist is "all (mostly?) good" (and no, you didn't say exactly that, but it seems to flow from your reasoning).

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 9/8/2009 3:45:22 PM >

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