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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 10:07:52 AM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I also take exception to his comment that that "Atheism is non-belief in a deity." This concerns - again - the supposed duality of "belief-disbelief". In fact, if one does not believe that there is a deity, then that is a belief, even if one choses to phrase it in the negative.

Well said. The truth of the matter is, since both religious and non religious people generally agree that the proof of God's existance (in any scientific sense) will only be made apparent after death, any opinion on God's existance or non existance is a best guess, In short, a belief.

However, does belief in and of itself make a religion? I have met many who said "I believe in some power somewhere but I don't believe in organized worship. Most of those people don't worship in any disorganized manner. Is a religion just a belief in god or a belief in a set of behaviours and rules dictated or pleasing to that God?

Oh...and btw, Firm...good, solid, thought provoking quote. KUTGW.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 10:22:09 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
how horrendous for you not knowing if water will come out when you turn the tap on.

I don't know that water will come out when I turn the tap on, sometimes it doesn't. I expect water to come out because I know how the system works and that it has a good track record of working. When water doesn't come out I set about fixing the problem instead of taking a shower and having faith that I'm getting wet.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 10:27:12 AM

heartcream

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I admit I read like two posts and caught wind of the OP.

To me narrow-minded zealots, (including myself at times) with what ever we are zealously standing for can come off with a revolting vibe to me. Also, people who are soooooo adamant God does not exist as though it is a crusade to prove He does not exist, tire me out in a nano-second.

We are a learning people and labels are important to the individual if they are attached to them in their own hearts. Some people call God, God and honestly it is not God to me. Then again, someone can say how much they dont believe in God, in religion and all of that, feel like they are so much closer to my own alignments and beliefs .

I notice at times I want to present as my way is the truth because that is how it feels to me. It takes a bit of help and distance at times to see that this doesnt mean I need to put it out there the way I have. Everyone has a path and that is where we each belong.

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Post #: 283

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 10:48:46 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I've been defining my position and explaining that your assertion of my position is inaccurate for several pages now.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but have I stated what your position is, other than that one contentious post above? This conversation between us certainly didn't span several pages.

To state you don’t have faith in faith isn’t a position. What kind of faith do you lack?
Let me go back and see where your position was stated….

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I don't agree that lacking the view that there is a god is the same as making the assertion that there is no god or that saying there is no god is the same as saying there is no God.

Was it here? If that is your position you are not an atheist since atheist basically means without god derived from the ancient Greek term atheos.

quote:

However, the point I really wanted to make is that the wording is important. The wording that you used is effectively the same as one that certain Christian groups have been using to try and misrepresent atheism into being a religion and the reason I'm being picky with you on the wording. The "view is that there isn't a deity" can arguably be paraphrased to the belief that there isn't a deity, that definition excludes the segment of the atheist community sometimes referred to as weak atheism.

Was here where you stated your position? You realise if the weak atheist argument is used then there is no real need for the term agnostic? A movement of a billion people with the wrong idea of a definition doesn’t make any of those people right. Going back before atheism was popular in the modern sense it had a more definite meaning.

This is all beside the point though: is this your position i.e. What you believe? Are you a weak atheist? I’ve still not found the post where you said what you are and explained why you think you are this thing.

quote:

No, the term atheism is a catch all that effectively includes a number of different belief systems, different philisophical views and the absence of a position.

No see above, what is agnostic for?

quote:

The scariest motive behind that goes something like:

1. Get atheism declared a religion.
2. Get evolution declared a belief of atheism.
3. Get evolution banned in schools as a religious belief.

I don’t think that’ll happen based on the fact evolution is a popular scientific theory with real world evidence to support it such as fossil changes over time, bacteriological resistance to drugs, the death of the red squirrel. Etc etc. It can’t be called a belief when it is a theory with supporting evidence all around us.

Sidetracked once again on this search for your position.

quote:

You just misinformed me what my position is and then wonder why I'm confident that you're wrong.

He couldn’t possible know what your position is I mean I’ve searched through pages of this and not found it yet.

quote:

My own view when it comes to the existence(under any definition of the word) of a deity/s(under any definition of the word) is that I don't know. However there are a number of claims that I will point out are demonstrably false, for instance "spectral evidence" isn't reliable.

BINGO, about time only took thirteen pages. You don’t sound atheist though. Also you have not stated if you think atheism is a religion as far as I can see.

quote:

I've lost my faith in faith, how exactly is that faith?

Right back to where we stated, I see one page not several where you have stated your position.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 9/10/2009 10:49:37 AM >

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Post #: 284

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 10:53:06 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I don't know that water will come out when I turn the tap on, sometimes it doesn't. I expect water to come out because I know how the system works and that it has a good track record of working. When water doesn't come out I set about fixing the problem instead of taking a shower and having faith that I'm getting wet.

I've never had this lack of faith water will come out of the tap when I turn it on. You expect it thus you have faith the water will come out, when this faith is proven not to be correct you reason as to why. You don't expect water not to come out before turning the tap on or think of the maintenance records before hand, it would always be after the fact. Something has to happen to lose faith in something.

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Post #: 285

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 11:09:28 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

However, I do take exception to some of the statements quoted from Matt Slick:

It isn't necessarily a "belief that there is no God" (though it can be), but is "not believing either way."

Unless I am misunderstanding him, this is what is commonly considered an "agnostic", not an atheist.

There are people holding basically the same view that will want to be referred to as atheist or agnostic or will refuse to have either label applied to them.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 11:44:56 AM

TurboJugend

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: TurboJugend

evolution

Evolution is a scientific theory, Stimmt?

Firm

It was an answer to the question why people might be atheist

science is a reason why people could be atheist...they explain things by science not believing

evolution ( atheists) / adam and eve ( believers)

offtopic
ja das Stimmt aber Ich bin kein Deutscher...Lebe neben an in Holland ;)
( I am not German..I am their neighbour :P )

< Message edited by TurboJugend -- 9/10/2009 11:47:39 AM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 11:55:58 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
I've never had this lack of faith water will come out of the tap when I turn it on. You expect it thus you have faith the water will come out, when this faith is proven not to be correct you reason as to why. You don't expect water not to come out before turning the tap on or think of the maintenance records before hand, it would always be after the fact. Something has to happen to lose faith in something.

That sounds like a fallacy of equivocation. We weren't talking about a rational expectation based on the sum of the evidence a moment ago.

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Post #: 288

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 12:27:52 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

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What is rational varies from person to person so who is the best judge of what is rational? To some people faith in God is rational to others it is irrational. Believe it or not if someone says god speaks to them you can't disprove that but if someone says god will walk the earth on this day and conduct this miracle that you can disprove.

I don't know what you mean when you say 'I've lost faith in faith' The tap example came about from your failure to define what faith you had lost faith in. Before that you said I had the wrong idea of your position by stating I thought you meant 'you had lost faith in shared faith'

I understand the thread is about god not taps so you'll have to forgive me for filling in the blanks as to what faith you have lost faith in.

Interesting people say they have lost faith in things especially relating to god, I find this strange considering god has never done anything that a human would recognise as his work to earn this faith in the first place. i.e. losing faith just like finding faith is a common theme for religious people obviously you can't really find it or lose it i.e. you either have it or you don't.

I can say this because at no point in my life so far, not even at school when I was singing 'he has the whole world in his hands', did I believe in religion. I've never had this faith people know something about god and I doubt I'll ever find it.

I think what I am really saying here is that an atheist has faith there is no god, I don't

Faith is just a word so saying it three times in the same sentence doesn't give it any hint of religion, it needs more to say what the faith relates to.

What is difference between hope and false hope? Absolutely nothing in my mind although people think otherwise. I’d like to see what odds count as true hope and what odds count as false hope.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 9/10/2009 12:43:45 PM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 1:19:31 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
Was it here? If that is your position you are not an atheist since atheist basically means without god derived from the ancient Greek term atheos.

That's not accurate: The term atheism originated from the Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "ungodly" or "deserted by the gods," which was derogatively applied to anyone thought to believe in false gods, no gods, or doctrines that stood in conflict with established religions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

quote:

Going back before atheism was popular in the modern sense it had a more definite meaning.

When was that? The definition above seems to be more general than any current one I've seen anyone propose. For instance christians used to count as atheists.

quote:

A movement of a billion people with the wrong idea of a definition doesn’t make any of those people right.

You may want to read up on how dictionaries work. For instance: "To decide which words to include in the dictionary and to determine what they mean, Merriam-Webster editors study the language as it's used." http://www.merriam-webster.com/help/faq/words_in.htm

quote:

You realise if the weak atheist argument is used then there is no real need for the term agnostic?

There's overlap in the two groups but all agnostics are not atheists. For instance agnostics who are also theists wouldn't count as atheists.

quote:

Also you have not stated if you think atheism is a religion as far as I can see.

Atheism isn't a religion by any definition I've seen that wasn't specifically concocted to include it. So I'd have to say no it's not.

I know I've cut out some of your points, I think I've answered them ad naseum in this thread and that your habit of stripping quotes of their source would make this post unreadable if I left it all in.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 1:24:49 PM

NihilusZero

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People confuse the ability to treat something as a religion from it actually being one.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 1:30:38 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

I think what I am really saying here is that an atheist has faith there is no god

Faith is the emotional investment in something or the idea of something without regard for whether there is any evidence for or against it.

The default position of anything not made apparent by materialistic empiricism is that it does not exist. It doesn't take "faith" to not put any credibility into the idea that purple gnomes in an invisible alternate dimension are floating over our heads.

And the only notions that exist in the realm of conjecture that are of any informative worth are those that postulate a defined set of falsifiable parameters, which the theistic deity does not provide (and specifically is built to exist exempt from having to be subject to them).

And, theistic gods can be logically deconstructed without even a hint of faith.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 1:51:19 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
Was it here? If that is your position you are not an atheist since atheist basically means without god derived from the ancient Greek term atheos.

quote:

That's not accurate: The term atheism originated from the Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "ungodly" or "deserted by the gods," which was derogatively applied to anyone thought to believe in false gods, no gods, or doctrines that stood in conflict with established religions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

You wikipediaist! Hard to know how the ancient Greeks used terms in any case it is hardly worlds apart. Asymmetrical = without symmetry. What is a false god? Is a member of the Hindu faith an atheist because I'm sure Hinduism didn't exist in ancient Greece. Christianity would be atheism to surely no? Didn't the ancient Greeks have their own gods separate from that of Christianity?

quote:

Going back before atheism was popular in the modern sense it had a more definite meaning.

quote:

When was that? The definition above seems to be more general than any current one I've seen anyone propose. For instance christians used to count as atheists.

Modern atheism with this whole weak and strong crap? No I'm not sure how long that has all been going but it has surely outreached the original meaning of the word by any realistic measure.

quote:

A movement of a billion people with the wrong idea of a definition doesn’t make any of those people right.

quote:

You may want to read up on how dictionaries work. For instance: "To decide which words to include in the dictionary and to determine what they mean, Merriam-Webster editors study the language as it's used." http://www.merriam-webster.com/help/faq/words_in.htm

Yep I just hope we all don't start using the word black to represent something white because that would really fuck up the way English words are added to the English dictionary. (How kool would dat be, wicked innit?) You really have to respect the French in this respect at least the try to stay true to the original meaning of something.

quote:

You realise if the weak atheist argument is used then there is no real need for the term agnostic?

quote:

There's overlap in the two groups but all agnostics are not atheists. For instance agnostics who are also theists wouldn't count as atheists.

Well you are entitled to your links maintained by learned individuals but you aren’t going to convince me such overlap is required, if anything it confuses the whole issue in an unnecessary way.

quote:

Also you have not stated if you think atheism is a religion as far as I can see.

quote:

Atheism isn't a religion by any definition I've seen that wasn't specifically concocted to include it. So I'd have to say no it's not.

Religion: A cause principle or system of beliefs held to with ardour and faith.

I assume atheism is at least a system of beliefs and those beliefs aren’t going to alter any time soon?

quote:

I know I've cut out some of your points, I think I've answered them ad naseum in this thread and that your habit of stripping quotes of their source would make this post unreadable if I left it all in.

If you answered them anywhere then they would appear in that lengthy post I made containing all but about a couple of your posts from this entire thread.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 2:18:36 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
Faith is the emotional investment in something or the idea of something without regard for whether there is any evidence for or against it.

That is your definition.

The third definition in the dictionary before me states it to be: something that is believed especially with strong conviction e.g. a system of religious belief.

quote:

The default position of anything not made apparent by materialistic empiricism is that it does not exist. It doesn't take "faith" to not put any credibility into the idea that purple gnomes in an invisible alternate dimension are floating over our heads.

People put faith in things that could have an impact on their life one way or another in an utterly unrealistic selfish way thus when certain people are young they have faith in the tooth fairy. Purple gnomes in an alternative dimension doesn't have an impact on the human experience, the idea of how it all came to be does.

quote:

And the only notions that exist in the realm of conjecture that are of any informative worth are those that postulate a defined set of falsifiable parameters, which the theistic deity does not provide (and specifically is built to exist exempt from having to be subject to them).

Sorry I don't speak Vulcan can you rephrase this in a way a simpleton like me can understand?

quote:

And, theistic gods can be logically deconstructed without even a hint of faith.

Anything can even peoples lack of faith. Logic is not some sword of truth it is a tool to rule out a particular argument based on what the argument states and thus it only goes so far. People aren’t logical and yet you expect the idea of a god to be when that idea is derived from people? People's idea of god is most likely a snapshot of the whole thing anyway and how can you use logic to disprove a partial model of something? You also expect something outside of the rules of the universe to be logical? Logic was primarily created based on the rules of the universe thus it will fail to disprove anything outside of it. You can only solve any mathematical problem between realistic limits otherwise it results in unrealistic extrapolation.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 2:36:59 PM

Aswad

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Atheism is a belief system, but not intrinsically a religion, which is more like a social and group identity constructed around a belief system. All humans subscribe to one or more belief systems, and most are unaware of at least one of these, believing it to be somehow universally valid, intrinsic or otherwise inviolate. Even science is based on a certain system of beliefs, such as belief in the existence of an objective, shared, external reality. If that seems obviously true, you've just underscored the previous point.

Atheists are no exception to the points above, and generally subscribe to at least two belief systems (usually core elements of humane ethics, along with the atheist flavor of their culture's notions of common sense universals). The majority of those who identify as atheists are zealous in their convictions, and unfortunately tend to have great difficulties with the scientific method, rational thinking and so forth. Obviously, this is also the case for the majority of religious people and the majority of people with other belief systems. It's a human trait, not a trait of one specific belief system or religion.

Conversely, some atheists are rational and well reflected, as are some religious folks.

So, for the rest... why does it matter if atheism is a religion?

Health,
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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 2:38:42 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
I assume atheism is at least a system of beliefs and those beliefs aren’t going to alter any time soon?

No, it's not. It's the absence of a belief, that's the position I've been explaining throughout this thread, the one I wanted you to read before we began a dialogue.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 2:52:54 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Atheism is a belief system,

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
What? We're assigning positions to people that we've completely made up? Sorry, I didn't get the memo. Here goes.....You think you have a unicorn stuck in your ass.

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Post #: 297

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 3:00:39 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

No, it's not. It's the absence of a belief, that's the position I've been explaining throughout this thread, the one I wanted you to read before we began a dialogue.

So you have no concept of what god is, I believe god to be this in people’s minds but an atheist doesn't have the slightest idea about it???

Your only answer to any thread about god should be the following (seriously this isn't a joke):

"God?? what is that?? an acronym of some kind?"

You can't convince me and I can't convince you, the best you can hope for is to make me think and defining words or phrases doesn't really get me thinking about much.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 3:02:51 PM

eponavet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
I assume atheism is at least a system of beliefs and those beliefs aren’t going to alter any time soon?

No, it's not. It's the absence of a belief, that's the position I've been explaining throughout this thread, the one I wanted you to read before we began a dialogue.

Isn't the absence of belief more of an agnostic position?

Athiests believe that there is no God, right? They believe this, based on their experiences, data they've collected, thought about and processed. It may be the polar opposite of what a fundamentalist _______ (insert any religion here) believes, but i am not able to conceptualize how athiesm, which seems to be a specific kind of belief system - is the absence of a belief.

I have read many of the posts on this thread, but honestly, not ALL of them, so i may be comnig out of left field or repeating something that has already been posted....sorry if that's the case.

~ epona

*edit* As to the original question, i don't think it's a religion....even if it has been legally defined as one.

< Message edited by eponavet -- 9/10/2009 3:06:30 PM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 3:25:14 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

He had a number of interesting observations about atheism (I was particularly intrigued by his statement that he respected many atheists more than he respects most agnostics, because they at least have the courage of their convictions, and more than many self-professed christians, because they are more likely to live a life that's in accordance with their beliefs), but that was the one that stuck out the most for me.

That is the typical misunderstanding of agnostics and he perhaps respects atheists because they have the similar blind faith that he has rather than being objective about an issue and refusing to take a position when there is no evidence one way or another. Basically in the first quote I highlighted he points out how atheism isn't a religion and in the second he is comforted by the fact it is and people treat it as such.

I missed this earlier. No, I'm afraid that's not at all an accurate interpretation of his position. His reasoning was quite clear. What he respects about atheists has nothing to do with whether atheists "treat it as a religion." What he respects about them is that they have a consistency, and a courage of their convictions, that he finds lacking in many self-professed christians - they don't claim to be one thing and live as though they believe another. He finds that more worthy of respect than people who claim to believe in god, but do not make any attempt to live their lives in a way that reflects that belief.

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