RE: Is Atheism a religion? (Full Version)

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chiaThePet -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 6:50:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

There is one major problem with Atheism as a religion: no holidays.


I have dated a few atheist in the past and while they were very firm in their unbeliefs, they never had any problems accepting christmas presents.


I know, I know, I dated one and every Christmas it was the same ol' movie over and over.

Coincidence on 34th Street.

chia* (the pet)



tazzygirl -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 6:55:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
why would a group of people who do not believe in religion/god/ect demand the same rights as those who do?

Because atheists should not have to fear losing their jobs or homes due to their lack of faith.



they are protected under the law without becoming a religion under the same law.



Musicmystery -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 7:00:44 AM)

~FR~

OK, atheist = religion folks.

If that's the cause, then nonfaith groups should be eligible when money is passed out for faith-based initiatives.

It's a religion under the law and all.

But if you're ever in the mood for some critical thinking--your position also maintains that it's impossible not to have a religion, as not having one is one. The negative is the positive. Nonbelief is belief. And any who question you are illogical by your logic.

It's the worst reasoning since Sigmund Freud maintained that if you doubted his theories about denial, it just proved his theories, because you were in denial about his theories. All very convenient.

All good argument, all good science, is the beginning of the conversation--it provides rich ground on which to build further understanding and argument and science. Poor reasoning goes in circles, has the answers all solved, shuts down the conversation, because things just are, neatly wrapped up. There's a god. Solved. Those who have no god have their own nongod religion. Whew....also solved. Life is simple. Hallelujah!

The legal bullshit--on both sides--is just one more reason why separation of church and state is so important, as the founders of my country set if up, and as my countrymen used to believe.

Oops....there's that word again. Should that be my religion? At least it's something I actually firmly, passionately, actively believe. Or perhaps that's part of the problem...people have become so passive they confuse it with active.

Well, you're gonna call nonbelief a belief no matter what anyone presents, you always were, so disavowing you of that assumption/conclusion is futile. Perhaps you can at least consider the implications and ramifications of what you're claiming.

Well, I'm off to practice my religion...oh, wait....how do I practice something I don't do?

[8|]




MadameMarque -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 7:14:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
why would a group of people who do not believe in religion/god/ect demand the same rights as those who do?

Because atheists should not have to fear losing their jobs or homes due to their lack of faith.



Yes, anyone can be subject to religious persecution or discrimination based upon their religious beliefs, including an absence of religious faith. 

Don't you see that there's no freedom of belief, if you aren't free not to believe?  Constitutionally, freedom of religion is intended to protect everyone, regardless of where they stand on religion.



KatyLied -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 7:37:17 AM)

quote:

So many have had their mind embedded with the status quo for so long they experience psychological pain when the curtain is pulled back...if it is pulled back.


I think many people find comfort is belief systems.  It's sort of scary to understand and fully realize that the universe is random and sometimes chaotic.  And that we have to be personally responsible for us.  Me, I just accept it.  I'm probably more agnostic than atheist, although I've never really taken the time to study either, I just know what I do not believe in.    [:)]



Kirata -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 8:04:49 AM)

~ FR ~

In my view, belief that God exists or does not exist is, by itself, simply a difference of opinion on the matter. But when either of these is pushed to the point of becoming an assertion of absolute fact, then the line between simple belief and committed faith has been crossed.

K.



anthrosub -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 8:21:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

So many have had their mind embedded with the status quo for so long they experience psychological pain when the curtain is pulled back...if it is pulled back.


I think many people find comfort is belief systems.  It's sort of scary to understand and fully realize that the universe is random and sometimes chaotic.  And that we have to be personally responsible for us.  Me, I just accept it.  I'm probably more agnostic than atheist, although I've never really taken the time to study either, I just know what I do not believe in.    [:)]



That is how I look at life, too. I don't pretend to know all the answers but I do know whatever life and the universe is, it is certainly not what religions claim.



SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 8:29:55 AM)

Atheism is a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardour and faith: thus it is a religion.

In my dictionary’s oh so humble opinion (IMDOSHO)[:D]



Tantriqu -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 8:45:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

There is one major problem with Atheism as a religion: no holidays.


We call them FEAST days: no problemo. Otherwise, the unemployed couldn't celebrate Labour Day; or would they have to work? We also Remember, Give Thanks, worship the Sun once a week, and every day is Ardour Day [no, wait, that's a tree-worshipping day].

And remember easter really is named for Estrous, the goddess of spring, fertility and periods, and why it's a Lunar holiday. It's all about chicks!




DMFParadox -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 9:19:26 AM)

I believe in dividing by zero. Sort of. Better to say that I believe we've been woefully ignorant of just what 'undefined' actually means in real world terms.

No, really. I've got equations and shit. Books of them. Spent years on it.

And, my thoughts on the subject will some day be the definitive ruling. Because I'm right. And because it predicts our entire collection of known universal principles; predicts gravity, predicts 3 dimensional visible space (most efficient topology that gets things done), predicts n-dimensional meta spaces, predicts quantum uncertainty, and predicts some things that would blow your mind if I was able to explain them without a 5 page dissertation. Testable and verifiable.

I may never get credit, but it WILL be a scientific consensus eventually. Because really, I ain't fucking around, I'm right. Eventually someone else with a better scientific grounding and more titles in front of their name will come up with the same thing, if I can't finalize my proofs before that happens.



thebongripper -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 9:23:29 AM)

Well...if you think about atheism, there is no faith. So technically, by your definition of what religion is, it is not a religion because there is no faith involved.

On the other hand, when one looks at religion as a collective or an organization, again, there is no church of atheism (that I am aware of. If there is, those people are ridiculous.) Therefore making it not a religion.

Thirdly, if you look at it as categorizing others, yes, then atheism would be a religion. I guess it really depends on your point of view. To me, I see all religion and faith as a waste of time and effort. But that does not mean that anyone elses' views are any less valid to me.

For all I know, there is a god and he watches me undress every night. For all you know, when we die, we just die. That's it.

Religion really needs to be looked at in the most unbiased way possible. Only then will you realize how full of shit the majority of it is.



thishereboi -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 9:30:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

I have dated a few atheist in the past and while they were very firm in their unbeliefs, they never had any problems accepting christmas presents. In fact they would tell me ahead of time what they wanted. Now I am sure there are athiests out there who have nothing to do with the holiday, but I have not met one yet.
ORIGINAL: thishereboi



Let me pose a question for you, Thishere: If the "Society to Make Everybody Walk Around with Jockey Shorts On Their Heads" sent you a check because it was "Praise the Fruit of the Loom Day", would cash it or send it back?





You have a point there. I guess it would depend on the size of the check and how truly annoying I thought the jockey short mob was.



TheHeretic -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 10:00:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Let me pose a question for you, Thishere: If the "Society to Make Everybody Walk Around with Jockey Shorts On Their Heads" sent you a check because it was "Praise the Fruit of the Loom Day", would cash it or send it back?




Now that one, you spun into something worth three chuckles, a snort, and possibly a lasting visual, Spinner.  Nicely done.

Let me take a crack at the religious holidays as well.  I'm not an atheist but I'm not a Christian either.  It isn't a problem for me to celebrate the cultural holiday, without the religious nonsense.  Christmas is trees, and Santa Claus, and fancy booze in gift boxes.   Winter is upon us, let us gather around the fire, remind ourselves of the ties of family and friendship, eat, drink and be merry.

Even an atheist ought to be able to mark the turning of the seasons without needing a lot of mumbo-jumbo to justify it.



Musicmystery -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 10:29:17 AM)

[deleted--somehow posted three times--apparently, God wanted this post emphasized]



Musicmystery -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 10:37:54 AM)

[deleted--somehow posted three times]



Musicmystery -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 10:47:14 AM)

quote:

Atheism is a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardour and faith


How so? I don't think god exists is suddenly all that?

How about this--if a teacher brings up facts or issues in a public school and neglects to mention that they happened because god exists, has she violated separation of church and state by bringing atheism into the classroom? After all, not believing is now a system of beliefs held to with faith...

The implications of this "atheism religion" trend are ridiculous. If you're gonna take the position, at least follow through.

Perhaps if folks want to give me rights for something I don't believe and don't do, I guess I'll just have to take them, as majority rules seems to be the leading principle of logic in our society. But aren't our legal entanglements bizarre enough already?



Kirata -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 11:09:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

How about this--if a teacher brings up facts or issues in a public school and neglects to mention that they happened because god exists, has she violated separation of church and state by bringing atheism into the classroom? After all, not believing is now a system of beliefs held to with faith...

You seem stuck on the notion that people are trying to say that not believing in God amounts to a faith, a religion. I don't think that's the point at all. I don't see anyone trying to brand a simple lack of belief as a religion or a committment of faith. But when people start insisting "there is no God" as an absolute statement of fact, they're no different from the guy with the $300 haircut on Sunday morning TV.

K.



Musicmystery -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 11:33:04 AM)

quote:

But when people start insisting "there is no God" as an absolute statement of fact, they're no different from the guy with the $300 haircut on Sunday morning TV.


I agree with you about the absolute.

Jumping to therefore it's a religion is the disconnect. It doesn't make the person religious--just mistaken (and poor at reasoning).

And readily granted--plenty of atheists as well as faithful are quite capable of poor logic, just as plenty of believers as well as atheists present reasonable positions.

Now, concluding that we have a zealot on our hands, fine. But still just an obnoxious idiot, not a new religion.



awmslave -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 11:33:22 AM)

Most has been said already. As agnostic myself, I still can not restrain to add my take of the topic:
I see atheism as a point of view, part of certain philosophical system but not a religion. Atheists are most often also materialists and believe everything that surrounds us evolved from cosmic dust by itself. Often the atheists refer to science as “proof” of their system.  The last is not the case. Science does not offer such proof. Actually, science can verify a hypothesis only in the framework of the existing paradigm. In this regard science never proves anything. We may live in “marix”-like system and there is no proof to suggest the materialism is the right view. Religion is evolutionary trait in humans. It helped humans to survive and evolve. There is some evidence for it based on brain research. Also, the universal nature of religious behavior suggests religion is built into the system. Is atheism abnormality, deviation  related to change in societal conditions?



Kirata -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 11:42:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Then you confuse philosophy, science, and religion... "Atheism" means something only to Theists...

Technically, at least, you're right in this observation. But it doesn't accord with practical and political realities. Atheists all too commonly set themselves up in opposition to religion in a way that makes their position no less a testament of faith than what they oppose, as witness to which you can just look at some of the posts in this thread.

Philosophically, a man can be a Theist and still be opposed to religion per se. And a philosophical Atheist, if asked his beliefs with regard to a Supreme Being, can fairly say that he does not hold any such (Theistic) beliefs. But that is not the same as declaring with the absolute certainty of unprovable faith that there is no God. And unfortunately, semantic niceties aside, this is the stance commonly taken by those who declare themselves to be "Atheists" these days.

K.



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