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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 7:24:18 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

You wield an awfully damned broad brush for a fellow who likes to present himself as a proponent of enlightened and civil debate.
ORIGINAL: Kirata



Before I can respond reasonably, I would have to ask where you feel my brush was overly broad.


(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 7:27:32 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

The thing that always puzzles me is - why are so many religious people absolutely adamant that atheism is a religion?

Why do you guys insist that it's a religion? Why is this so important to you?

Not to presume to speak for "religious people," but one definition of religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe. To my mind that's rather loose, but there it is. Personally, I think the usage would be more correctly considered as metaphorical. Some rabid Atheists do have a lot in common with our evangelical friends.

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/7/2009 7:35:01 PM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 7:27:33 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		Spinner, I wish you would actually listen to what I am saying.

The Memorial should stay, because that is what they choose, to memorialise thier dead Comrades. It doesn't matter if its a cross,or a Medicine wheel.

It was a real organic Monument put up by actuall War Veterans. The "Bhuddist" addition was not real. It was done only for the purpose of getting the existing monument removed. It was a political Game. It was wrong.

Religious Monuments should not be erected on State land.
Existing Monuments should be allowed to remain if the land is later taken over by the State.



The logical conclusion of what you are arguing, would demand that the Anazazi carvings in the Grand Canyon must be blasted off of the walls. That if historical monuments have a religous component, they must be detroyed. It's Sick. Its Wrong. And it is not what was intended by the bill of Rights.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 7:27:59 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Dc, with almost 24,000 posts under your belt, you ain't gonna see it if you already haven't. I don't feel like going back to look up Meat Cleavers postings to show how that he felt his view of what science teaches satisfies every element of a religion.


Hmm.

Meatcleaver was certainly a zealot, though message boards do seem to bring out the proselytizing instinct in a lot of folks. He's only one example, though, and I'd be wary of using him (or any single poster) as a basis for generalization.

Not having been one of MC's more devoted readers, I don't remember specifics of how atheism functioned in his life. It does seem to have given him a sense of identity, which religion often can. I don't know, though, whether it provided him with community or a focus/locus for worship or a sense of a moral code, which have been some of the hallmarks of my own religious experiences.

Eta: The thought of Meatcleaver--zealous, rabid, condescending--as a religious figure depresses me quite a bit. But then, I'm a Unitarian.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 9/7/2009 7:47:03 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 7:33:57 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

Spinner, I wish you would actually listen to what I am saying.
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg



I AM listening to what you're saying, Dawg, but I'm confused. What made you presume that the person who brought the suit, who was identified as Catholic, was lapsed and an atheist? Was it his name? Was it that he was a former state park worker? Was it that he was dealing with the ACLU?  If it wasn't the fact that he felt, correctly or incorrectly, that the maintaining of a Christian symbol on public land when the symbol of another religion was rejected violated the constitutionally mandated separation of church and state indicated that he was a lapsed Catholic and an atheist?


< Message edited by SpinnerofTales -- 9/7/2009 7:41:34 PM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 7:40:31 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

No Tazzy, it was Bruno, a former Park employee, who tried to put up the Bhuddist Memorial. Got turned down. Called the ACLU, and they sued for him. There was no Bhuddist involved.

I admitted I am presuming he was a lapsed Catholic/Athiest. So I may be wrong about something, we don't have a full picture on that.


According to the PEER site, there was a Buddhist who asked, and was denied.

The Mojave Cross was erected in trespass on Federal public land that was transferred to
National Park Service (NPS) control as part of the Mojave National Preserve in October
1994. In 1999 the ACLU of Southern California requested that the NPS remove the
Cross, but the NPS failed to do so. NPS Superintendent Mary Martin met with the
private person responsible for the Cross and asked if he would remove it.
The responsible party refused and defiantly threatened to put the cross back if the NPS
removed it. Taking “no” for an answer, Ms. Martin acquiesced. At the same time Ms.
Martin denied a request from another party to install a Buddhist stupa at the site of the
Cross. Her handwritten note, at the bottom of the letter of denial, threatened the
individual with citation or arrest if he attempted to place a stupa on Federal park land.

http://www.peer.org/docs/nps/08_24_1_mojave_cross_case_history.pdf

After an application to erect a Buddhist memorial nearby was denied in 1999, the American Civil Liberties Union voiced concern about the presence of the cross itself. In 2001 Frank Buono, the former assistant superintendent of the preserve, filed suit challenging the presence of the cross and objecting to the government’s refusal to allow other displays. Buono was successful at the district-court and appeals-court levels.

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/analysis.aspx?id=21282

Over 70 years ago, the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) built a cross to memorialize fallen service members in a remote area that is now part of a federal preserve. After the National Park Service denied a request to build a Buddhist shrine near the cross in 1999 and declared its intent to remove the cross, Congress designated the cross and an area of adjoining property as a national World War I memorial.


A former Parks Service employee challenged the government’s maintenance of the memorial on Establishment Clause grounds. As a practicing Roman Catholic, the plaintiff did not object to the cross itself; rather, his objection was ideological, as he thought that the area should be turned into a public forum open for private groups to build a variety of monuments.

http://www.aclj.org/TrialNotebook/Read.aspx?id=739

In 1998, the current eight-foot metal cross was bolted onto rocks on a rise in the Preserve. In 1999, prompted by a demand from the ACLU of Southern California, former NPS Superintendent Mary Martin met with the private person responsible for the cross and asked if he would remove it. He refused and defiantly vowed to put the cross back if removed. Taking “no” for an answer, Ms. Martin acquiesced. At the same time Ms. Martin denied a request from another party to install a Buddhist stupa (domed shrine) at the cross site, threatening the individual with citation or arrest if he attempted to place a stupa on park land. For the District and Circuit Courts, there was no question of unconstitutional conduct, in part, because the NPS restricted the site to symbols of only one religion.

http://www.peer.org/news/news_id.php?row_id=1053

Seems pretty clear to me that Buono didnt get involved until 2001. It also seems clear that if it had been Buono who made the request, it would have been noted in legal briefs.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 7:40:59 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		Because it was a fake addition put up, only for the purpose of destroying the existing monument.

I stand by my presumption that he is an Athiest. Neither of us can proove.



So again,


"The logical conclusion of what you are arguing, would demand that the Anazazi carvings in the Grand Canyon must be blasted off of the walls. That if historical monuments (erected before the land was owned by the state) have a religous component, they must be detroyed."

Do I get called a pink pussy pony or a serious answer?......

Oh, the suspense is killing me.


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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 7:42:56 PM   
girlygurl


Posts: 6973
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From: in the palms of His hands
Status: offline 		Not sure this has been cited yet.



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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 8:01:00 PM   
LanceHughes


Posts: 4737
Joined: 2/12/2004
Status: offline 		My blood BOILS when people don't "cite the cites."  Especially, as in this case, they (yes, you tazzygirl) use the cites backwards:

Two atheist boys can remain in the Boy Scouts of America even though they refuse to take an oath to do their "duty to God," according to a recent decision by a California appellate court. (Randall v. Orange County Council, No. G012797, 1994 Cal. App. LEXIS 174 (Ct. App. Feb. 28, 1994).)

The decision by California's Fourth District Court of Appeal upheld a trial court's ruling that enjoined a local Boy Scout council from excluding twin 11-year-old boys, Michael and William Randall, from participating in scouting activities on the basis of their religious beliefs.
==========
or did you mean the prison study group on atheism that was denied because atheism is NOT a religion?

http://vlex.com/vid/kaufman-james-j-v-mccaughtry-23546718


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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 8:02:50 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		i meant the prison study group...which is the case cited when they speak of atheism being termed a "legal" religion... explain to me what they are studying?

oh, and btw, i could care less if your blood boils or freezes... deal with it.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 9/7/2009 8:04:44 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 8:09:52 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		Tazzy, you got me, perhaps...

I can't find any detail on who asked for the Bhuddist memorial. No name is given. You do give PEER as a source a couple of times, which isn't fair. Bruno is on the Board of PEER, it could hardly be considered unbiased.

Also noted on PEERs home page http://www.peer.org/ is a "tools for Employees" one link called

"Anonomous Activism"

So the instigator is anonomous, and the Man who asked for the ACLU to sue's group advocates Anonomous Activism

HMMMM...smoke, but not absolute fire.


But that is not central to my thinking about the case. My argument that Monuments that exist before the State takes over, should be allowed to remain, is not affect by whether Bruno was the Bhudist.

And let me eat Crow for Spinner, Bruno is a practicing Catholic. Doesn't change my legal reasoning at all, but I got that detail wrong.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 8:14:53 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		and i cant find out if the original asker was Buddhist or not, just that they did ask for a buddhist memorial...

and i agree.. it was there before... it should remain. new memorials should be part of the new rules, but if we make a case to tear this one down, cases can be made for others far to easily.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 8:22:18 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

The thing that always puzzles me is - why are so many religious people absolutely adamant that atheism is a religion?

Why do you guys insist that it's a religion? Why is this so important to you?


I've been wondering that too.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 8:25:03 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		I just feel that if the Bhuddists actually wanted to set up a memorial to the fallen American Soldiers of WW1, they could go get a piece of land or permision to use Private land in the Desert and do so. The (charitable) intent of this was to change the WW1 vets memorial into something else. To parasitically use the VFW creation. We can all draw our own conclusion, but I think it was clear that the intent of the "bhuddists" was to get the cross removed. And that sounds very UNBhuddist to me. The Bhuddists never went and put up the WW1 memorial they felt called to create did they?

_____________________________

I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 8:28:51 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

My blood BOILS when people don't "cite the cites."  Especially, as in this case, they (yes, you tazzygirl) use the cites backwards:

Two atheist boys can remain in the Boy Scouts of America even though they refuse to take an oath to do their "duty to God," according to a recent decision by a California appellate court. (Randall v. Orange County Council, No. G012797, 1994 Cal. App. LEXIS 174 (Ct. App. Feb. 28, 1994).)

The decision by California's Fourth District Court of Appeal upheld a trial court's ruling that enjoined a local Boy Scout council from excluding twin 11-year-old boys, Michael and William Randall, from participating in scouting activities on the basis of their religious beliefs.
==========
or did you mean the prison study group on atheism that was denied because atheism is NOT a religion?

http://vlex.com/vid/kaufman-james-j-v-mccaughtry-23546718





And while your blood cools, i did cite the source of my questions and comments

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2792620

next time, do your research a bit better.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to LanceHughes)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 8:30:50 PM   
LanceHughes


Posts: 4737
Joined: 2/12/2004
Status: offline 		tazzygirl: Go read the brief.  It's not too hard.  My blood boils when people do not argue or discuss fairly.  Your blood should too.

In summary, a prison group wanted to form a "study group" for atheism since that's how prisons get around the 1st amendment clause prohibiting the establihment of a religion.  That is, the Catholic study group "studies" Catholism by holding Mass.  You see, if the prison gave space/time/services to Catholics directly, then they would be establishing a religion within the prison walls at taxpayers' expense - obviously a no-no.  Other side of the coin: deny Mass to many in prison and see where that gets you. 

So, the atheists wanted a study group, and were denied because they were NOT a religion.

As a side note:  I did belong to the local (Denver) chapter of  Society of Separationists (Madyn Murray O'Hair's group.)  We met every Sunday, religiously.  I have some of her books autographed by her when the SOS had their national convention here (on Easter, of course.)  I could look up the year, if you care to know it.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 8:31:39 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

I just feel that if the Bhuddists actually wanted to set up a memorial to the fallen American Soldiers of WW1, they could go get a piece of land or permision to use Private land in the Desert and do so. The (charitable) intent of this was to change the WW1 vets memorial into something else. To parasitically use the VFW creation. We can all draw our own conclusion, but I think it was clear that the intent of the "bhuddists" was to get the cross removed. And that sounds very UNBhuddist to me. The Bhuddists never went and put up the WW1 memorial they felt called to create did they?


i have to agree with you on this. and i also agree it was probably the direction of the request. but, something else came up, and im going to mention it then go to bed.

part of the requirement for the monument to be illegal under these rules is that it has to inflict some kind of hardship (im tired so if im wrong, ill correct it tomorrow evening)

since the man bringing the suit is catholic, and, having been raised that way, there are crosses all over the place... how can he prove his hardship?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 8:36:04 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

tazzygirl: Go read the brief.  It's not too hard.  My blood boils when people do not argue or discuss fairly.  Your blood should too.

In summary, a prison group wanted to form a "study group" for atheism since that's how prisons get around the 1st amendment clause prohibiting the establihment of a religion.  That is, the Catholic study group "studies" Catholism by holding Mass.  You see, if the prison gave space/time/services to Catholics directly, then they would be establishing a religion within the prison walls at taxpayers' expense - obviously a no-no.  Other side of the coin: deny Mass to many in prison and see where that gets you. 

So, the atheists wanted a study group, and were denied because they were NOT a religion.

As a side note:  I did belong to the local (Denver) chapter of  Society of Separationists (Madyn Murray O'Hair's group.)  We met every Sunday, religiously.  I have some of her books autographed by her when the SOS had their national convention here (on Easter, of course.)  I could look up the year, if you care to know it.


my blood doesnt boil in a debate... i would lose perspective.

i have read the brief... and posted the source, which you overlooked in your boiling state of anger.

i asked simple, concise questions.

i have no problem with any group being allowed the same rights as anyone else. if a smoker gets breaks, non smokers should too. i dont believe kids should have to use god in an oath... god isnt a requirement to be a good citizen.

what bothered me about all this is how there are atheists who insist that they believe in nothing, have no formal belief in anything religious, yet seek protection using that same term that abhor (sp) so much.

i dont believe in discrimination, on any level... i also dont believe in hypocracy on any level either.

"Without venturing too far into the realm of the philosophical, we have suggested in the past that when a person sincerely holds beliefs dealing with issues of 'ultimate concern' that for her occupy a 'place parallel to that filled by . . . God in traditionally religious persons,' those beliefs represent her religion."

"We have already indicated that atheism may be considered, in this specialized sense, a religion. See Reed v. Great Lakes Cos., 330 F.3d 931, 934 (7th Cir. 2003) ('If we think of religion as taking a position on divinity, then atheism is indeed a form of religion.')"


Be More Specific:

The ruling we've been discussing was with regard to a prisoner (James J. Kaufman) who claimed that his First Amendment rights were violated when the warden refused to allow him to form a group of inmates to study and discuss atheism. Specifically, he cited the Free Exercise clause and the Establishment clause. The court, recognizing that the defendant "utterly failed" to demonstrate that his freedom to exercise his beliefs had been infringed, shot down the Free Exercise claim - and rightly so.

Despite the Court's reference to an atheist "code of ethics", it should be noted that atheism has only one requirement which would qualify under the Free Exercise clause - disbelief. Atheism isn't a religion in the conventional sense and there are no rituals associated with it. In order to violate an atheist's right to freely exercise their beliefs, you'd have to be able to reprogram someone's mind.

In a nutshell, Mr. Kaufman was just as free to exercise his lack of belief alone in his cell. As a prisoner he isn't necessarily afforded all of the other rights guaranteed to citizens of the United States. The right to speak freely and peaceably assemble, which atheists might choose to exercise, don't always apply to a prisoner.

http://www.atheist-community.org/library/articles/read.php?id=742

there is more, as i am sure you are aware.... but Master is calling me to bed...

till tomorrow... good night

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 9/7/2009 8:43:05 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to LanceHughes)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 8:39:46 PM   
LanceHughes


Posts: 4737
Joined: 2/12/2004
Status: offline 		tazzygirl: And did YOU read the whole article you linked to?  At the end, the author writes:

despite the "shock" headlines to the contrary, they [Ed: the 7th Circuit] didn't declare that atheism was a religion, they declared that atheism was afforded equal protection with religions under the Establishment Clause

Evidently your understanding of this case was derived from said "shock headlines."  My blood is MUCH cooler now that I have seen where your research comes from.  And I will not rise to your bait for a flame war.  Really....... I won't

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Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 8:46:44 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		as i said... they are, legally, considered a religion, not as a layperson may see religion

As we've seen, the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals hasn't declared atheism to be a religion as the layperson might usually define it, they simply acknowledged that atheism hold equal standing with religions with regard to the First Amendment. I can live with that.

and, btw Big Boy, you weren't being "baited". You charged in with "blood boiling" before you had a clue of what i was even referring too. you have no one to blame but yourself.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 9/7/2009 8:48:26 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to LanceHughes)
Profile   Post #: 120
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