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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 5:27:05 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

Tazzygirl: your plagerism is the 2nd paragraph of your post #120 (last post on page 6.)


Its really difficult to plagerize something that we both have open, both have read, and in the course of a discussion, we are both referring too.

but, hey, i forgot the quotation marks.

quote:


Typical ad hominen argument:  I am done with you.

You write "which is actually a shame."  How about you ask a question like, "Why do you have that in your profile?  I would think it would limit you."



to ask such a question would entertain the idea that i care why you have that in your profile.

i dont.

quote:



My answer would be: some people have "Hard limit: needles" in their profile.  I (at almost 60 years of age) done with trying to argue the negative.  Life is too short to pay tribute (yes, I choose that word advisedly) to a non-existant thingie.....  Life is too short to waste dollars, time and energy on arguing with someone that I might be interested in having a relationship with.  Better to be "way up front" with my hard limits than not, don't you think?


cynicism is a life killer... and a control freak. not everyone argues about religion, i live with a man who was raised jewish... lol... and we never argue. so if you wish to allow something you dont believe in to control your life to the extent that it dictates who is in your life, then that is your perogative. i didnt ask.


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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 5:50:00 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I am an atheist because there is no evidence of God.


Is a Buddhist an atheist?

Firm

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 6:55:17 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I am an atheist because there is no evidence of God.


Is a Buddhist an atheist?

Firm


Many are.


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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 7:00:33 AM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		I always thought a Buddhist was one who considered Buddha to be a god?

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 7:02:31 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

The original post was:

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I understand religion as an individual's faith-based way of looking at the world, the universe, and our place in all of it.  Not by having "God," in the mix, not the practice of worship, but based on faith.  By that standard, I think atheism must be considered a religion.  When you start looking at the hoops they jump through to maintain the position, it even becomes a pretty wacky religion.  It also seems to attract a lot of angry people.

Thoughts?


You "understand religion as an individual's faith-based way of looking at the world..."  Then you re-state your premise as "[religion] is based on faith."
You then state your conclusion as "atheism must be considered a religion."

The middle (a technical term in this context) is missing, but can be derived.  To put  it in a tight, logical form, your argument is:  If faith, then religious.  If atheism, then faith.  Conclusion: If atheism, then religious.

Simply, the middle falls and so does the conclusion.  The strongest thing I can say about my faith/belief system (being an atheist) is that I have faith/belief that the sun will rise tomorrow.  Atheist have no gods.  See my post #124 (page 7) about having one less God than Christians.

Does this follow?

"Science" is a belief system. Atheism is based on "science". Therefore atheism is a belief system.

Firm


No, it does not follow, for two reasons. First of all, because it presumes (illogically) that an absence of belief in god must necessarily have a basis in scientific belief; and second, because it erroneously describes a single belief as a belief system. You've chased this red herring before, and it went nowhere then, in spite of your truly heroic semantic contortions. It doesn't make any more sense now than it did a couple of months ago.


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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 7:08:11 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I always thought a Buddhist was one who considered Buddha to be a god?


Some do, but most do not, and the Buddha himself was quite clear that he was no god. He was simply a teacher. For most Buddhists, Buddhism is nothing more than a personal belief system, not a religion.


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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 7:12:37 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Does this follow?

"Science" is a belief system. Atheism is based on "science". Therefore atheism is a belief system.

Firm


No.

And that concept of science being a belief system is why so many of these ridiculous arguments keep sprouting up everywhere.


sci⋅ence

1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.

2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.

3. any of the branches of natural or physical science.

4. systematized knowledge in general.

5. knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.

6. a particular branch of knowledge.

7. skill, esp. reflecting a precise application of facts or principles; proficiency.



Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.







< Message edited by rulemylife -- 9/8/2009 7:15:06 AM >

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 7:26:38 AM   
a100010001000


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Joined: 8/31/2009
Status: offline 		No evidence of God.

That is classic.  Look at the stars, the flowers, the individual ice crystals in a snowflake, the clouds, the impossible odds that all the elements would come together to form a planet the exact distance to a sun to promote life as it is. 

The fool has said in his heart "There is no God." - Proverbs


< Message edited by a100010001000 -- 9/8/2009 7:27:13 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 7:52:41 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:


That is classic. Look at the stars

Not very colourful are they? I mean those things were definitely designed to be best viewed on a black and white television.
quote:


, the flowers

Colourful evolution resulting from the need to attract insects to cross pollinate.
quote:


the individual ice crystals in a snowflake

Look at the ice cubes in my fridge and the frost, glorious.
quote:


the clouds

The grey ones or the white fluffy ones? The dark ones the depressing ones?
quote:


the impossible odds that all the elements would come together to form a planet the exact distance to a sun to promote life as it is.

Given the amount of stars in the universe that could have harboured life then this is a rather meek effort on gods part just managing to place one planet the right distance away from one to create life. Were all those other stars failed attempts?

Monkeys and typewriters bla bla bla etc.


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 9/8/2009 7:54:18 AM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 7:55:58 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: a100010001000

No evidence of God.

That is classic.  Look at the stars, the flowers, the individual ice crystals in a snowflake, the clouds, the impossible odds that all the elements would come together to form a planet the exact distance to a sun to promote life as it is. 




I'm afraid that last one doesn't work. Actually, the odds are not against a planet forming in this band at all - in fact, in an infinite universe, it's inevitable that many planets will form in the proper range of conditions to support life. Heck, even in our own solar system, there are several worlds that may have had life in the past, and may even have life today - from Mars all the way to the moons of Jupiter and Saturn. It's quite possible we're alone in the universe, but if we are, it's not because it was some miracle that put us in the only place in the universe that could support life. There are many.


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In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 7:59:27 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: a100010001000

No evidence of God.

That is classic.  Look at the stars, the flowers, the individual ice crystals in a snowflake, the clouds, the impossible odds that all the elements would come together to form a planet the exact distance to a sun to promote life as it is. 

The fool has said in his heart "There is no God." - Proverbs



Look at cancer, diseases of all types, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, wars, terrorism, torture, starvation.

Oh, but I forgot, God stays out of those nasty things and just works on those beautiful snowflakes.






< Message edited by rulemylife -- 9/8/2009 8:02:26 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 8:01:12 AM   
lusciouslips19


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Status: offline 		When i look at the wonders of the human body I think "there is a God", when I look at my mother who (was a vibrant and healthy woman who always took care of her health and was never sick)has ALS-Lou gerhrigs disease: I dont believe there is a God.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 8:07:44 AM   
Sunnyfey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I always thought a Buddhist was one who considered Buddha to be a god?


I always thought they followed the TEACHINGS  of Buddha, a man so enlightened he became god like.....

o.0

Wiki on Buddah, but no real answer.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha


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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 8:48:30 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Does this follow?

"Science" is a belief system. Atheism is based on "science". Therefore atheism is a belief system.

Firm


No.

And that concept of science being a belief system is why so many of these ridiculous arguments keep sprouting up everywhere.


sci⋅ence

1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.

2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.

3. any of the branches of natural or physical science.

4. systematized knowledge in general.

5. knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.

6. a particular branch of knowledge.

7. skill, esp. reflecting a precise application of facts or principles; proficiency.



Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.


Hey, I can do that ...

define: belief system

Definitions of belief system on the Web:

* The basis on which beliefs are based. For example a religious belief system is based on faith and dogma whereas a scientific belief system is ...
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/belief_system

* All cultures develop a system of values that are applied to meet a culture's needs. Our understanding of the values of a culture and our ...
www.artsconnected.org/artsnetmn/identity/idvocab.html

* A shared system of beliefs and values that systematically define a way of perceiving the social, cultural, physical and psychological world.
arroweducation.org/Glossary.htm



So ... according to you and Panda, science is not a "systematic way of perceiving the social, cultural, physical and psychological world", nor is it a "basis on which beliefs are based".

You see, to me, your refusal to understand the basis of your beliefs is tantamount to a fundamentalist Christian making the claim that the Bible is the unchangeable and "without error" word of God.

You are a "fundamentalist" in your world view and belief system, whether you can recognize it or not.

Firm

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Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 8:52:34 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

The original post was:

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I understand religion as an individual's faith-based way of looking at the world, the universe, and our place in all of it.  Not by having "God," in the mix, not the practice of worship, but based on faith.  By that standard, I think atheism must be considered a religion.  When you start looking at the hoops they jump through to maintain the position, it even becomes a pretty wacky religion.  It also seems to attract a lot of angry people.

Thoughts?


You "understand religion as an individual's faith-based way of looking at the world..."  Then you re-state your premise as "[religion] is based on faith."
You then state your conclusion as "atheism must be considered a religion."

The middle (a technical term in this context) is missing, but can be derived.  To put  it in a tight, logical form, your argument is:  If faith, then religious.  If atheism, then faith.  Conclusion: If atheism, then religious.

Simply, the middle falls and so does the conclusion.  The strongest thing I can say about my faith/belief system (being an atheist) is that I have faith/belief that the sun will rise tomorrow.  Atheist have no gods.  See my post #124 (page 7) about having one less God than Christians.

Does this follow?

"Science" is a belief system. Atheism is based on "science". Therefore atheism is a belief system.

Firm


No, it does not follow, for two reasons. First of all, because it presumes (illogically) that an absence of belief in god must necessarily have a basis in scientific belief; and second, because it erroneously describes a single belief as a belief system. You've chased this red herring before, and it went nowhere then, in spite of your truly heroic semantic contortions. It doesn't make any more sense now than it did a couple of months ago.


So you believe that an "unbelief" in a divine being stands absolutely alone in a person? It has no effect on any other beliefs that they may have, nor in how they view the world, and how it operates?

Firm

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 9:03:26 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Status: offline 		I don't think it is correct to say atheism is based on science, since science will always propose a theory and set about finding a way to prove or disprove it. This isn't at all common to atheism; with atheism a theory is put forward but no real attempts are made to prove or disprove it i.e. just like religion. There is nothing other than ‘the power of logic and reasoning’ offered up as proof.

To compare either atheism or any other belief system to science is an insult to a scientist open-minded enough to think of what an answer could be and moral enough to accept it was the wrong assumption given the result of the test conducted (if that is the case) i.e. even if you are proven wrong you learn something. Agnosticism is based on science. I.e. let us only ask the question if the answer can be found theoretically through maths or in practice through experimentation.


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 9/8/2009 9:08:09 AM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 9:08:02 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
So you believe that an "unbelief" in a divine being stands absolutely alone in a person? It has no effect on any other beliefs that they may have, nor in how they view the world, and how it operates?

Firm


So here  we go again with the childish semantic contortions. Who could have ever seen this coming?

In answer to  your question - can you show me where I said that? .


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What immortal hand or eye
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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 9:43:07 AM   
scarlethiney


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

I would be in a pickle of a fix if atheism were a religion in anything but a legal sense, because I have faith in a number of things, but I don't really even debate the issue of "is there a God", because, to me, it is a completely pointless discussion.

I don't "jump through hoops" to not believe. In general, I don't even discuss it. I certainly don't hang jewelry around my neck saying "Atheist", cover my walls with pictures of atheist 'saints' and 'prophets', or spend entire days listening to someone tell me why I should live my life a certain way to be a 'good atheist', then just do as I please as soon as I step out the door of that special chamber and out of sight of all of the other people with me in that chamber who might "judge" my worth as an atheist.

My ethical foundation does not depend on some 'great being' disciplining me to -make- me behave or 'do the right thing', and yet, I manage to strive to be just, ethical, honest, and dedicated, just because one of the things I -do- believe in is that I am responsible for my own decisions about how I treat other people.

 attempting to invalidate our experience... that tends to incite hostility and a bit of defensiveness, in my experience.

Dame Calla


This is the first thing in this thread that makes sense................to me.  Are not beliefs really about perspective?  and more than that, the experiences that shaped that perspective? So yes, a group of people can agree that they believe in God, Buddha, tinkerbell, or none of those, but ask those same people to define this belief and you will get a host of different perspectives based on that persons experience.  Our beliefs/ perspective are often re-defined the more we learn.

With regard to jumping through hoops, you could say that any one who has a strong belief will undoubtedly staunchly support that belief and can be seen by those who do  not follow that belief as "wacky".

So would you then say that all CM forum posters jump through hoops to maintain the position that they are kinky and if you read the posts and responses to posts on here it seems to attract a lot of angry people?   It does seem so, but it has  nothing to do with Kink, it has everything to do with perspective and opinion.



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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 10:20:02 AM   
scarlethiney


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Status: offline 		[/quote]


I'm talking about the way that some religious people are narrow-minded, bigoted, utterly convinced that only they know the truth, dismissive to those who refuse to "see the light", and who attempt to insist that everyone must believe as they do, or they are either idiots, or damned.

There are several like that on this board- like.............    Firm

[/quote]

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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/8/2009 12:38:10 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

The thing that always puzzles me is - why are so many religious people absolutely adamant that atheism is a religion?

Why do you guys insist that it's a religion? Why is this so important to you?


I have to admit, I don't understand that either, but I really don't care enough to give it a lot of thought. I do know that there are a lot of athiests out their who are downright obnoxious when it comes to preaching about their unbeliefs. They post thread after thread on the subject and pull out link after link in the attempt to prove there is no god. The Jehovah Witnesses could pick up pointers from them on perseverence. Talk about a bulldog with a bone.

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