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Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 9:54:38 AM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		In another thread, a poster stated that they were an atheist and as such the number of atheists in the US was important to him. The first thing that popped into my head was "Why?". Why would it make any difference to you how many atheists (or Muslims or Pentecostals, etc.) there are in the US or the world? Does the number of people with a similar view validate your ideas? Is it not sufficient that you have reached a conclusion that satisfies yourself?

So here's the basic question....does it matter to you how many people hold any given religious viewpoint, and if so why?


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RE: Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 9:58:37 AM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		Doesnt matter one tiny bit to me. My views are my views alone. I don't go around announcing them, never felt a need to. Probably one of the reasons I don't get involved in a lot of stuff anymore because I always felt they were all together to try and validate their views, to make themselves feel better about who they are. I've never really needed that in my life. I'm comfortable for the most part with who I am.

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RE: Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 10:00:27 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Why would it make any difference to you how many atheists (or Muslims or Pentecostals, etc.) there are in the US or the world? Does the number of people with a similar view validate your ideas? Is it not sufficient that you have reached a conclusion that satisfies yourself?


It doesn't to me--or perhaps I should say wouldn't, except that those with religious beliefs are making political decisions and even laws based on those beliefs, decisions and policies I then find woefully flawed, while the opposition claims divine guidance.

To the extent those beliefs suppress argument and thinking, they present a problem. Those able to successfully balance reason and faith are free to worship anything they wish, with my blessings. At their best, these beliefs can promote healthy behavior.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 9/6/2009 10:01:55 AM >

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RE: Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 10:01:45 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		My beliefs dont follow one religion, so it wouldnt matter to me who many catholics, protestants, muslims, ect, were around. Its just another attempt to lable so we can seperate, define, belittle, demoralize, then scorn those who do not believe as the larger collective "we" do.

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RE: Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 10:08:00 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Given all the strange components that have gone into my religious model, Arpig, even with six billion people on the planet, I figure the number is 1.  I'm ok with that.

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RE: Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 10:33:56 AM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		I'm Jewish.  Under Jewish law, no public religious gathering is considered to be valid unless a minyan is present (a quorum of ten or more adult Jews.  Some of the Orthodox require the ten to be ten men only).  So I need at least nine others, and local to me.

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RE: Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 10:37:39 AM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
I'm Jewish.  Under Jewish law, no public religious gathering is considered to be valid unless a minyan is present (a quorum of ten or more adult Jews.  Some of the Orthodox require the ten to be ten men only).  So I need at least nine others, and local to me.


Plus four minors at Pesach.

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RE: Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 10:40:14 AM   
DavanKael


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Status: offline 		The number of any given religion is interesting (And sometimes scary) but, for my own beliefs, it's relatively irrelevant. 
Now, when religion is dictating public policy in a Country where Church and State are supposedly separate, I get pissy. 
Oh, and I was disturbed at the, I believe, Time article long before the election that showed that fewer people would vote for an atheist than just about any other 'belief system'.  I found that rather disturbing but not particularly surprising. 
  Davan

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RE: Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 10:41:42 AM   
DePubed


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Status: offline 		As an Orthodox, religious  student of Judaism, I can tell you that The Talmud specifies what is required for a minyan:
a minyan  must be ten MEN (no women); and the MEN must all be  circumcised males; (no guy with a foreskin counts).  And a "Man" is defined as a male who has at least 3 pubic hairs. (I kid you not). In case of doubt the chief rabbi is to make a visible inspection. 

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RE: Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 10:42:49 AM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

I'm Jewish. Under Jewish law, no public religious gathering is considered to be valid unless a minyan is present (a quorum of ten or more adult Jews. Some of the Orthodox require the ten to be ten men only). So I need at least nine others, and local to me.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven



Actually, in Jewish law, the torah can be counted as the tenth member of a miyan in extraordinary circumstances (see Harlan Ellison's Looking for Kaddak" for a rather amusing take on this) so you only need eight.

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RE: Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 10:44:52 AM   
BKSir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Why would it make any difference to you how many atheists (or Muslims or Pentecostals, etc.) there are in the US or the world? Does the number of people with a similar view validate your ideas? Is it not sufficient that you have reached a conclusion that satisfies yourself?


It doesn't to me--or perhaps I should say wouldn't, except that those with religious beliefs are making political decisions and even laws based on those beliefs, decisions and policies I then find woefully flawed, while the opposition claims divine guidance.

To the extent those beliefs suppress argument and thinking, they present a problem. Those able to successfully balance reason and faith are free to worship anything they wish, with my blessings. At their best, these beliefs can promote healthy behavior.




Yep, pretty much sums it up for me right there.

Do I believe there's something more out there?  Sure, why not?  I can't prove there is, I can't prove there isn't.  So, I'm going to say, "there might be", and I suppose that would leave me at agnostic, technically, even though I personally identify as Taoist.  Give me some incontrovertible evidence I'm wrong and I'll be happy to change my stance.

Does that mean I give a damn how many agnostics or taoists or scientologists or catholics or worshipers of the great toenail god of the frozen north there are?  Not even remotely.  These are supposed to be religions worshiping a loving god(dess), so it doesn't matter whose side is bigger, since they SHOULDN'T be fighting with eachother anyway, in theory.  So who cares who has the bigger 'army', or, in essence, whose god has the bigger dick?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven:
I'm Jewish.  Under Jewish law, no public religious gathering is considered to be valid unless a minyan is present (a quorum of ten or more adult Jews.  Some of the Orthodox require the ten to be ten men only).  So I need at least nine others, and local to me.


LOL, okay, sorry...  I just woke up and totally read "minyan" as "minivan" at first glance.  First thing that went through my mind was "But minivans are a requirement at mormon gatherings, not jewish." ;) 


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RE: Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 10:50:19 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Wow.  These forums really can be educational.  I was under the impression that 10 Jews in a room meant you had 11 opinions. 

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RE: Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 11:59:12 AM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

Wow. These forums really can be educational. I was under the impression that 10 Jews in a room meant you had 11 opinions ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Wow.  These forums really can be educational.  I was under the impression that 10 Jews in a room meant you had 11 opinions. 


I could point out that that comment is anti-semtic stereotyping that is promoting religious intolerance and fostering hatred between opposing religions.....But I won't because it's funny. Instead, let me give you a hearty laugh and a "keep up the good work".


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RE: Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 12:03:27 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		and that makes a huge difference between those who believe in a "faith" and those who dont.

at least we can laugh at ourselves and our religious beliefs... lol

i always wondered, as a child, where adam's and eve's daughter in laws (for lack of a better word) came from. then someone tried to explain how they were from another "tribe"

lol... yeah... somethings just dont add up.

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If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 12:46:18 PM   
DavanKael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DePubed
As an Orthodox, religious  student of Judaism, I can tell you that The Talmud specifies what is required for a minyan:
a minyan  must be ten MEN (no women); and the MEN must all be  circumcised males; (no guy with a foreskin counts).  And a "Man" is defined as a male who has at least 3 pubic hairs. (I kid you not). In case of doubt the chief rabbi is to make a visible inspection. 


I may be trying to give myself a longer break from cleaning by pointing this out but is it amusing to anyone besides me that this whole pubic hair requirement was pointed out by someone with the name 'DePubed'? 
  Davan


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RE: Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 12:49:07 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

I may be trying to give myself a longer break from cleaning by pointing this out but is it amusing to anyone besides me that this whole pubic hair requirement was pointed out by someone with the name 'DePubed'?
Davan
I noticed that as well....sometimes unintentional irony is the sweetest eh?

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Ha Ha...Charade you are!

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RE: Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 12:51:50 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DePubed

As an Orthodox, religious  student of Judaism, I can tell you that The Talmud specifies what is required for a minyan:
a minyan  must be ten MEN (no women); and the MEN must all be  circumcised males; (no guy with a foreskin counts).  And a "Man" is defined as a male who has at least 3 pubic hairs. (I kid you not). In case of doubt the chief rabbi is to make a visible inspection. 


The requirement that they all be men does not hold with Reform Jews.  I am surprised that a "man" is defined by pubic hairs because a Bar/Bat Mitzvah is the criterion for all other questions of adulthood.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Actually, in Jewish law, the torah can be counted as the tenth member of a miyan in extraordinary circumstances (see Harlan Ellison's Looking for Kaddak" for a rather amusing take on this) so you only need eight.



Well, THAT was a new one on me!  Thanks for sharing.  But ten minus one is nine, not eight!


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 12:57:59 PM   
DavanKael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

I may be trying to give myself a longer break from cleaning by pointing this out but is it amusing to anyone besides me that this whole pubic hair requirement was pointed out by someone with the name 'DePubed'?
Davan
I noticed that as well....sometimes unintentional irony is the sweetest eh?


Indeed!  :>  Lol! 
  Davan

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RE: Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 12:59:16 PM   
DavanKael


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Status: offline 		2 good points, DarkSteven. 
  Davan

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RE: Why do the numbers matter... - 9/6/2009 5:41:57 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

Well, THAT was a new one on me! Thanks for sharing. But ten minus one is nine, not eight!
ORIGINAL: DarkSteven


Well, THAT was a new one on me!  Thanks for sharing.  But ten minus one is nine, not eight!



I KNOW that! The original post said that the poster needed himself and nine more jews to make a minyan. So one minus nine is eight.

Sorry...I had to defend my mathematical acumen


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